Can someone explain the point of speedrunning in this game to me?
I know, fun is subjective and all, but..
- Traps are easily dodged/avoided if you have some reactions and awareness anyways (i see that all the time in my replays, the skilllevel of people clearing a base is actually way higher than that of a speedrunner)
- They use a cheese item (the shield) for situations where they mess up/are actually in danger
With the consequences that
- people use cheese stuff themselves (piston/flamething eg.) and build unfun bases that annoy others to stop them
I dont get it and i wont start building unfun sh*t into my base to stop it... i enjoy actually seeing people playing the game, and face the stuff i put up for them (and having fun doing so).
But yea, fun is subjective... its just ######### if you ruin the fun for others imo...
/rant
Comments
-
While I feel like the shield should have a longer cool-down. The whole point of that item is to allow someone to survive getting caught in a trap. And the traps that you described as not being fun are actually quite easy for someone who has the default bolt to take care of. I don't understand why you're against using any trap. All traps are fair game and all strategies to circumvent getting hit by a trap is fair game. /rant
0 -
Yea i know you are right (and you know that i know i guess lol), but...
... i see the shield often used as argument why bases that are in some eyes near exploits or simply extremely cheesy are ok... but that stuff is just extremely frustrating for people that dont have that shield on them or unlocked yet. Idk, i have a different understanding of this game probably, and yea i actually shouldnt complain and just do my stuff - i actually dont raid at all anymore and just build and modify my outposts, so what do i care about the frustration people experience when raiding...
0 -
So i have to confess i tried to updated some of my outposts with anti speedrun measures that are not too annoying for people that go slow... it seems to work, though worse players have a harder time now (this one didnt use shield though, so yea)
I realized another thing today thats annoying about speedrunners btw, especially WHEN you catch them: They never give accolades. Especially not the ones that lose ranking points... might take too long to press the buttons, idk :D
1 -
As a part time rusher I wanna point some things out:
There is certain base builds that will make me rush. It's usually the base builds that I don't find overly fun to engage with such as the classic giant room with 500 traps and guards or too many bomb traps at a slope. It just takes a very long time to deal with all that and feels not overly rewarding - so I'd rather just run through instead of bothering with all these things. However if I encounter a well crafted map that I deem fun I'll play it slow and deal with everything accordingly.
It's btw rather simple to deny rushing. There is several things you can do as a builder to prevent it:
- Maze - If I don't know where to rush - I can't rush.
- Grapples, Pistons, Flame Traps, Acid Cubes (forgot the name), Holo Traps - Traps that don't get deactivated when you move past them once or hinder your movement.
- Specific note on the acid cubes and Holo Traps - you can make it that people can't grapple to surfaces with those. That's pretty much as anti-rush as it gets.
There is even more ways to counter it, you just have to be creative about it.
Imo it's not cheese to have a flame trap piston combo somewhere. It's just cheesy when you overdo it e.g. making the whole base just that.
1 -
Ty for the input. Yea i build rather big and sprawling bases that some might not enjoy, but i try to not overdo it with spam of anything ( i like to use some bombtraps on slopes though now and then :D). Actually i would say i am a super fair builder - you will always have room to maneuvre and can find cover in my bases. Makes them not less deadly though.
I build stuff i would enjoy playing myself, and thats the point: i dont want to do stuff that i myself (and many others) find unfun, which a lot of what you mention there is.
Anyways, i put some outposts social, thread with them is here in general, if you wanna have a look and judge yourself if my stuff is fun or not go ahead.
1 -
You know, fun and brutal aren't mutually exclusive in this game. It's all subjective, for starters, but I don't think building for anti-speed running HAS to ruin the fun. For example, my final base was built with lots of ramps, tight corridors, clusters of guards, and so forth that made it impossible to just rush through. You HAVE to pause at various choke points and deal with things to make it to the objective.
Before the beta ended (MY HEART IS BROKEN) I watched a guy spend 49 minutes and 26 deaths working his way through the base. He had a blast running it and it was so awesome watching him come up with solutions to the problems I presented.
For example, I had a long hall with a ramp incline that was only one block tall and wide. Above it were corrosive cubes and there was a hook trap at the top the ramp on an angled block, pointing down toward the player. A myriad of guards existed in a small room at the top as well as some other traps, including hooks. Finally, a few spike traps existed on the walls of the incline. It's all quite simple but each trap had to be dealt with in a specific sequence all while fending off the guards. It was fun for me to test and fun for this guy to fail at over and over until he had it down to a science.
My point? I don't think the speedrunner versus fun issue will remain for long in the game. We will all improve the quality of our builds as time goes and learn how to create fun, interesting bases that are more than just cheese. When we improve, the game as a whole become healthier. :)
2 -
I must say that speedrun is just another way to play, I do it, and I do enjoy going through the map trying to deal with what comes up to me next fast, I can understand why people don't find it funny, but I find it more exciting while you are running with 3 traps activated behind you so the thing in front of you is crucial, this requires as said the shield in general(well not always you have deflect, hardware or be fast enough shooting the arrow),the shield however which its a great tool, but it means no other weapon, so further than the suggested already, I would recommend you to put the situation where you need bow, and sword, so it makes something way harder, like place some minions with lava behind so they can't freely shoot or will lose the arrow, and traps that requires bow as the incinerators well placed.
And talking about bases to not speed run, I made one based on all second wave , sentinels with AoE some lava floor and a corridor full of pistons and incinerator no way to speedrun (most of speedrunners left after few tries) HOWEVER few people who did look at the map a bit, I did made some marks on the wall, even wrote the word TRUST as possible on the wall, and lights marking a lava ground , which was literally 4 blocks from the gem, just 1 people did tried it, and did it.
btw another tip to prevent speed run, remember you can make the route of guards, and let them stay in any position, with 3 guards on it there's no way to pass through (not the best or most beautiful way to prevent, but works) they get stuck and need to wait them to attack to go through
0 -
Thank you for proving my point...
0 -
hahahaha I want to make it clear, the problem is not speedrunning, its just another way to play and there will be who come up with it with other strategy, make the traps faster its pointless, there's even an item that makes you run faster, so at the end, you will just punish the ones who want to take their time, so far there are not much more strategies, something like a door that someone else suggested to make them stop to hit it, so they must deal with the room (but again will not work since you can just use hardware on ground and destroy it) a maze, forcing them to follow the minion, but at the end once they get half of it will do it fast, but just because you do it faster doesn't mean less skill always, some are harder to do if you don't clear it up , but yes, its not always the case. I do enjoy so much each time I see a new output, and doesn't mean to do all of them running, but neither I feel the need to destroy as some map, the around 20 sentinel eyes displaced on the map, or all the hooks around, not all strategies based on ######### thing, one for example did had hornets in a room with several hooks attatched on top with few sentinels, and some corrosive cubes well placed not letting know where to go works well.
but let me tell you something, I do find ######### to make boring outposts, and all the ones I've done with strategy to prevent speedruns, always include something , to reward the ones who do it properly, like a secret passage with holocube which is obviously not a main path and that may just look like a bad trap, a secret entrance or exit with corrosive cubes or holocube, and in general I do mark them, but at the end, you should make your outpost, because you enjoy them, not expecting to get something from them, you can't prevent people speedrunning your outpost, but for the ones people make like ######### , to get another possible vote like brutal/fun/ one to give it less rate to appear as "unfair" or "boring" or even "impossible" if you prefer and make the owner to show he can accomplish it, as for mines, I did test all of them and did accomplish them
0 -
I don't have a big problem with speedrunning in the game. There is a natural balance against it because the genmat rewards come from the traps and guards. If you bypass them all, then you don't get genmat.
Like others have said, I rush outposts that are just annoying and feel impossible -- big rooms with sentinel eyes and guards everywhere.
I wish there were more systems to incentivize the fun in the outpost design.
0 -
I might be wrong (i only raided in the beginning of the beta and then only build actually), but isnt the genemat coming from the objective alone and the traps and guards mostly drop parts and synthite?
Also yea, there is a relation between annoying builds and rushing, thats exactly the problem i see...
0 -
indeed, you get the best reward actually by leveling up, which was around 475 genmat and around 275 of the other that I remember(at least so far of the lv around 50-60 I was), about the other materials, actually I didn't had any need, you get them by default for playing, as reward of completing the raids maps, and for you to imagine, I had almost 7k of drop parts, that I did chose to waste for wasting, and I ended with 300+ granades, 150+ of shield barriers and 150+ phoenix pod (Since you get also those materials from building no real need)
synthite I didn't had that much but still more than genmat so no real need to focus on that and I did stop to get them from time to time, or to kill enemies for fun, but at the end, if you enjoy doing them fast, there's no real need to stop so far more than required, so the only thing I can really tell you is as suggested, to allow another vote type as said previously, and add in the future some traps, that really stop using grabbing hook and go throw most of traps, such as a flasgbang almost impossible to avoid but harmless just make you blind for a bit, enough to confuse you and die for other traps, doors, something that makes you go slower so speed run will not make you go throw spikes, maybe allowing a mod for certain traps such as the arrows that pierce the barrier(not the hardware one)
2 -
Thank you for clarifying. So speedrunning aka ignoring the content in the game is even the fastes way to progress it seems? Makes sense... not.
As said i didnt raid and only build, dont really rememeber but i think i reached chimeralvl 40ish by that, and i played a TON. Didnt feel slow after all though, but if raiding levels you that fast something might need to be done here as well. But yea, i had over 30k parts at the end (i didnt use any on consumables after all) and the red stuff was the limiting factor (synthite was maybe a bit short as well, but i had like 13 burial sites already at the end and prestiged most of my outposts).
0 -
considering you play only brutal you get around 3/4 of the bar, so in general you will be making a champion outpost out of 7 maps, 3 are champion , you get 3750 exp of 1 with brutal map and then 1125*5 which is 5625 which we could assume is 1 bar in proportion lets say, you need to get 3 to reach the next level of chimera(I don't know if this would change in higher levels since in the first was only 2), so far is the fastest way to get the red thing, I don't think the problem is the amount you get, since most players don't do the maps running throughtout it I just think should be a better incentive to play it slower as said, some traps that punish if you try to ignore others, or ones that go through the barrier to prevent the use shield for everything, I don't think the barrier is bad as some said, and more even for new players, imagine starting and getting grabbed by 3 hooks at same time, in small place while running through it would not even get you.
sadly I got notified about this great game the 10th so I couldn't play all the time I'd have like(hope they make pre-purchase and open it some days before I've to try ok?) but still I got that lv, I could be getting 2 lv per hour at the end of the game time when I did got how it works and all and taking my time to check my outpost and more, at the end it was around 1-3mins to accomplish one depending of many things, and actually if giving up on the maps made to prevent speedrunning, even more, but I don't like not doing any map, another change that should be made, is reconsider the "difficult" of some maps as well, some are not "brutal" but the calification they have just for having traps close to the genmat... or many maps that literally are empty in most of map, and at the end its like 100 traps that you can ignore walking back while they have the activation time and its a bad strategy, just works if you stay on the middle and no way to survive, no time to destroy all that aims to you here at same time(well it's a lie you could use a barrier shield hardware or destroy some of one wall and the one that aim and slowly... but pointless)
I only made sadly 7 or 8 maps I don't really remember if I finished one and activate it, and only 1 made with bad intention, and as I said, I do almost always put some kind of secret in my maps, because I like rewarding to make it slowly and carefully or just exploring the outside, like the exit in one was literally on the genmant with all only 2 wave, you could make this map without any need of use any weapon, maybe I am not that good building I must say, but I do enjoy it, and overall watching the replays to see what people do.
Also an important thing to say is, that I do wanted to get lot of upgrades, and overall, lot of traps, I do wanted to make a base with a main thing, lets say hornet, so I needed to get them, maybe next I wanted to use the enforcers with armor, so I did needed to get more genmat.
In any case if whenever the game is release, I'd gladly watch maps with you and try to speedrun them if you want to see what can be done to prevent this without the need of piston+incinerator+corridor.
Post edited by Stryx on0 -
The thing that worked pretty well for me in the end was combos of dart traps with hunter on the way out (2nd wave). Basically put dart traps ahead for them to use shield or move out of the way and then have more dart traps covering where they can actually move/have them ahead and behind so they can only deflect one. People that go slow can spot and evade that (kinda) easily.
But once you know where that is its not a challenge anymore (cause shield/deflect), and if i did that repeatedly and got them more than once they mostly ragequit and didnt give accolade lol.
And yea, i havent even unlocked piston, incinerator or claw in the beta cause i dont really like the style and i wanted to mess around more with the other stuff. So there is still stuff for me to explore (some industrial themed outpost with pistons and flame traps could actually be pretty cool i guess)
0 -
it's not a bad strategy I've faced it several times, although at the end, with the sound, you can know if its arrows, spikes, and if you only put arrows in front and spikes behind they can still run and deflect and if you put arrows in both you can destroy the back one while running through the corner and then deflect the one in front, yes I've faced this sometimes, and if not yep, shield to cover both sides if the mistake, the shield needs no nerf, but counter, the tool is great, you can only carry 2, so must be usefull , if not its pointless... but should not work through everything or having something to make it harder.
Honestly making ragequit for me it's something to be proud, if I make those people ragequit I don't mind no accolade, but I do still enjoy it, and you may dislike it, but when people make speedrun through yours, you know there's still something to improve, when its by shield , just there's lack of something to counter it.
I must say I didn't get the point of accolades or the rank in the game yet(and still I don't tbh what are they worth for), so it took me a bit to be given them more consistently to whoever deserves them because even if for me are not I did notice some people want them.
0 -
Yea i dont really think that the shield is the problem, and i dont think there should be stuff thats able to penetrate it. Its just problematic in conjunction with most traps being so slow that you cant get fast moving targets with them - You can set up "semi-spammy" passages that can catch those if they mess up, but ye, when they have the shield this is pointless or would have to be super spammy or continuously and thats not really fun for others then imo.
So rather give me more tools to trigger traps from outside of their own trigger area, and let me figure out the timing to hit fast moving raiders with them (already suggested light barriers and pressure plates in feedback). That would make setting up traps way more varied and interesting and add more difficulty to speedrunning. Imagine you can trigger that bomb trap ahead of the raider... :D
0 -
the speed will not fix things, they would use the item to run, and if you increase the speed that much to catch even those it would require so advanced reflex that most players don't have, making it frustrating , since you must predict all traps, because once you activate you would be dead , or the grabbling hook.
I am gonna be honest I am gonna try to make the outpost speedrunning, no matter what, so if you make it with something more than a corridor full of pistons I would like to play it, and if its challenging even more, I don't like leaving outpost undone, just I'd not make the idea of "plate" keep it as the barrier or as sensor, so it has a range of several blocks, making no noise , so in this way you can place it like on top without any "noise" to activate it, and activating the corresponding trap as normal activation with its sounds and all, but being far away enough would be silent.
0
