The reason why killboxes exist.
Also a topic on progression!
The reason WHY killboxes exist and why everyone does them is because of ALL of the game's mechanics, not because "these STOOPID builders don't know how ELSE to get kills!"
Not being able to move GenMat favors bases that are close to the ground, or ones that go underground, which also limits types of bases that can be done.
Raiders, at basekit, have grappling and excellent movement. The grapple can be spammed, you can remain in the air infinitely, you gain extra speed when grappling, etc. The more open a base's rooms are, the more room the raider has to dodge, which allows them to remain in LOS of your traps and buy time to shoot and disarm them, ruining setups that costed a lot of capacity to make. You can place more traps and guards to counter that... but then that makes a killroom. Which is a biiiiig no no and "not fun for the Raider".
Raiders also have the permanent shield upgrade and seemingly easy to restock consumables that create barriers. Which prevents the "clever traps that all Builders should go for instead of killrooms!" from getting a kill on a bad Raider who deserved to die. Which is, y'know, never acknowledged.
Raiders also have turtling and speedrunning at basekit which shuts down traps and guards unless they're clustered together (aka a killroom :>), because Builders with no upgrades, guards or traps beyond the basic ones is garbage (which nobody acknowledges in the common "valid popular complaints" topics), can't do setups that will throw off raiders as a result, and trying to get smart with the base blocks is easy to see by a turtler and easy to react to by a speedrunner.
Just turn the corner and fire at the trap, there's several seconds before ANY trap goes off. If you see multiple, just move backwards, there's noooo way to consistently punish going backwards without some complex setup. Traps have garbage detection and are too slow when firing (favoring killrooms as a result)..
Oh and, the "put a guard outside the base and wait 30 seconds" trick doesn't work consistently enough to merit planning around because of the currency tombs. Which the community thinks they're entitled to, and the devs seem to agree. (lmao) If people go for tombs, that messes with the time that the guard needs to go in the entrance behind the raider.
Kills are also a note-worthy amount of a base's progression, being 50% of it, accolades are also optional and people typically give "Fun" if it was easy for them in my experience, and based off of the other topics, you will most likely need upgrades to be considered "Brutal". Same for "Ingenius". Raider? Not at all, of course. They don't have to do aaaaany of these. "Artistic" is great but I want to be lethal as well.
So, what do we seem to get? We get tight, packed rooms stacked with traps to halt progress, and other traps to prevent easily destroying said traps. Turtlers can't pick off traps one by one, and speedrunners will die if they go through it. Dealing with the room is difficult, and raiders will most likely die trying to do it.
But, y'know, this is a killbox. And of course, nooooobody likes playing those, don't they? So naturally, instead of changing Builder progression, the GenMat placement, etc so other types of rooms are encouraged, we should... let Raiders pick and choose what bases they want to do. Because "Builders should be using THEIR BRAINS to deal with my AMAZING skills and MY TIME IS VALUABLE!!".
And to address a potential rebuttal, let me flip some popular reasoning used in both DBD AND this community in regards to dealing with killboxes as Raider back at you: I shouldn't need unlockable traps, guards and add-ons to deal with basekit grapple and basekit Raider strategies, I shouldn't need to spend 5 hours cogitating over a base, thinking of these amazing, unforeseen setups to get invalidated by a single ######### shield. I shouldn't need to spend 50% of my capacity making a single setup to encourage actual thought, I shouldn't need to be restricted to dark, boring, ground bases instead of being able to make a cool sky base instead, where you have to parkour from isle to isle.
This is all why I haven't logged in quite a while, and only put in... 11 hours total. Which seems to be more than enough to get an idea on how things are. :)
Comments
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It's more the definition of Killboxes that people seem to have trouble with. A room full of traps and monsters is not a killbox if you can play the room without having to speedrun it like a tard. By definition, only brutal outpost can have TRUE killboxes. (A room with nothing but lava, pistons everywhere and incinerators on every wall with a dozen full ugrade plasma batteries shooting at you)
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by my very loose questioning anything with more than 7 threats in ONE ROOM is a killbox by the communities reckoning.
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at 405 hours, you make several good points and several bad ones. i stopped caring about accolades a long time ago. nobody gives them, they aren't worth it. my focus now is on making outposts that are just lethal enough they get me kills, but also look easy enough that they make the person think they have more hope than they do. i've started making designs that re-use assets from the previous room in the next one, i've gone to wave-ambush to discourage slow dismantle, and i have anti-speedrunner halls. but the biggest thing i do is that the player always has OPTIONS. not one time in my dungeons do i force a player to sit still and WAIT for a fire effect to end, or for a patrol to leave. there is always somewhere to go, something to do. and as a result i have people sticking around for 50+ deaths out of a desire to win. my quitters normally get to 10-12 before giving up on these maps. and on occasion i get the accolades i actually want to get, Brutal, and Ingenious. because i'm not here for the casuals. i'm here for the people who want to be the best.
the double standard between builders and raiders is real. and everyone says builders are in the wrong because builders set the map up. but when raiders can demolish every single map with EITHER patience or skill with no exception. the builders, aren't in the wrong guys. there is NOTHING a builder can do to stop a raider who won't give up. but a raider can always conquer a builder who does everything in their power to protect what is THEIRS TO BEGIN WITH.
YEAH I SAID IT. THE BUILDER OWNS THE GENMAT YOU DIRTY FKING THEIVES
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"Raiders can beat every single map with either patience or skill".
Yeah, that's kinda the point. Wouldn't be much point in raiding if you couldn't. What's the fun in a challenge that can't be overcome?
Builders and Raiders have different jobs too. Builders don't make bases just to give people genmat, and raiders don't raid bases just to be resource/XP cattle.
And unless you have Overdrive on, you don't lose anything when the raider escapes with the genmat anyways. The only one who loses anything is the raider, who loses rank (which is a poorly implemented system anyways) if he dies too much.
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False, if the builder does not kill enough he loses rank points
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Killboxes also exist because Outposts expire and get put into the Social retirement home, and that discourages Builders from putting in effort. Why bother spending hours on something that has a short lifespan and then becomes worthless? Screw it, just quickly spam some traps and be done with it.
"these STOOPID builders don't know how ELSE to get kills!"
I've been reading three different MYM forums and I have hardly seen this sentiment. I've seen people say what I said about the game not encouraging effort (the word "lazy" is used a lot), and I've seen people say the ranking system is to blame.
(MYM was not designed around the ranking system. Rank wasn't even in the closed beta. The addition of "get lots of kills or be punished" has had a negative effect on the game.)
Yeah, a single Raider visits my small Normal base, I get three kills, and I lose rank points for it. I hate the rank system, I really do.
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Oh, you mean that poorly implemented system that was put in entirely as an afterthought?
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I like to build what I call "encounters". Where when they enter a room, something happens and they have to deal with it.
My favorite "encounter" is a guard in the room and a couple of Armored/Bloodlust Warmongers that sneak up behind the player. But I also like the Holocube with a Warmonger sitting inside it, and then as soon as they get close enough to dispell it, other stuff happens simultaneously, like a Hunter Boltshot that gets them if they try to sidestep the Warmonger.
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how do you prevent room skipping every "encounter"
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i've never had an issue with consistent rank loss from outposts i've built. i run normal p1-p4 then brutal champions p5+ it happens from time to time but the trend is consistently positive.
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Overall I am winning ranks point too but to be honest it's mostly thanks to the console player. I find some of my outposts ridiculously easy but for the most part they have an average of 5 kills.
I'll say it again but I just have a problem with the real killboxes, the ones that aren't feasible without the speedrunners. All other rooms must exist, it is impossible to kill a player with an isolated trap.
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