Unpopular opinion but survivor has a higher skill ceiling than most killers
Excluding nurse,hag and huntress, I think survivor has a higher skill ceiling than a lot of killers. My reasoning for this is, in low ranks killers usually destroy survivors excluding the really high skill cap ones but in high ranks survivors start doing a lot better while killers like nurse, hag, huntress and spirit start doing better but the competition is still strong.
Basically, I think a lot of killers have limited skill ceilings when it comes to their powers, mind games, patrol routes and other parts of playing killer are usually harder to learn than a power but survivors seem to be gaining chase, anti mind game, gen repair and overall strategy skills indefinitely. In conclusion, I feel like survivor has a higher skill cap than a lot of the killers, feel free to debate this if you think otherwise.
Comments
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I don't want to engage in this conversation too much, but I do want to point out one thing: Billy has a very high skill ceiling as well because his power has quite a bit of depth.
When you steer the chainsaw with Q and E like I do, there's a lot of practice and improvement involved.
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I didn’t include him since he usually can do well in high and low ranks, he does have a high skill cap though.
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I do agree that Survivor in itself has a high ceiling of skill and its comparative to the levels of skill you would find with billy and the nurse yes.
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I tend to agree, a lot more goes into survivor than some give credit too a lot seem to have this stigma of "survivors just need to run in circles lol" but it's much more than that. Same with high tier killers most seem to think that high tier killers just use their power and they win.
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There are not many good survivors, there are a lot of good killers. This Is why I think the ranking needs looking at to pair people up better.
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Honestly, yeah. A lot of the killers gameplay wise are extremely basic and I don't count things like hiding the red glow/moonwalking and things like that as that is a trait every single killer shares.
And to be honest it doesn't help when dedicated servers are extremely jank and at least from my experience (mainly playing killer) it tends to help the killers more than it helps the survivors. I tend to get extremely questionable hits on survivors and I feel like that alone forces them to play in certain ways, aka the extremely safe way by not trying to even be greedy for a second so every single chase becomes a case of loop once then throw so you don't get hit.
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I'd disagree killers are harder to play they have to learn how to apply pressure, mind-games, their power, what works with the power, how to utilize the power, when not to chase and how to juggle. Surviors are easier play and less to learn but somehoe are stronger? Weird.
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We can agree that while some killers have a lower skill ceiling than survivors and some have a higher one.
In general though i believe most killers have a higher skill ceiling with the exception of SwF. SwF opens up a lot of options with coms and the amount of plays you can do if you are good enough is scary.
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*blinks and rubs eyes* guess I didn't misread it.
Billy's skill cealing high or low is very easy to achieve. His depth is pretty shallow as well compaired to a lot of killers. I would say he's probably in the top easiest killers to play and reach the skill cealing with.
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Try getting pip consistently with Legion, Doctor, Wraith, Clown etc at Rank 1,
without sweaty add-ons and mori.
Then we talk about who has higher skill ceiling.
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Holding m1 opposed to just clicking it is a great difference
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I agree with your assessment but disagree with your exclusions. No matter how good you get with Huntress or Hag you are still limited by the game on how well you can do. One of which is map design. Nurse was the only killer that had a higher skill ceiling. Unfortunately she's been reduced to running in straight lines with no need of proper mindgames to evade.
The mistake many make when it comes to the skill level of survivors is assessing just one survivor and what that one survivor can do. The true strength is in the teamwork of all four survivors and their ability at completing their objective.
While survivors have a high skill ceiling they also have a higher skill floor compaired to killers. That's why picking up killer is easier than the survivor role.
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I think both sides have a specific skill floor that you need to master in order to be effective. You can be a great survivor but you can also main one of the "lower tier" killers and try to do well with them at high ranks, so are they truly easy? Look at someone like Wraith for example, very basic, go bing bong and be invisible, but there's a lot more to him than that. Lots of tricks you can do with him and builds to be effective. Same goes with survivor, it's not just running around in circles, you have to be attentive, stealthy, slick and unpredictable if you want to survive. I'm basing this off of high ranked gameplay since lower ranks are a whole other story.
But yeah, I think both sides require certain skills to be able to be good
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Depends on the perks, items, add-ons and how you use them. Running insta-saw and an ebony? Zero skill. NoED? No brain.
Some thigs are a no-brainer when designing loadouts, but still. There are some things that you look at and say that the player got carried by their kit.
Survivors don't have anything like that, but they do have teammates. So, instead of managing powers and what-not it's about knowing what everyone else is doing and coordianting with them.
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wait hold up. You can steer with billy using Q and E????
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Honestly it's just obnoxious. I can go game after game, never be seen, fixing a gen. Like fifteen minutes of holding down a button.
But killer is easy ??? Dude gtfo
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I use to with Wraith when I mained him.
More to both sides than that.
I definitely agree that both sides can be difficult.
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I never said killer was easy, I can avoid killers too but it took me awhile to master it. You cannot deny that.
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Then I really have nothing to say if you still think that after playing wraith at rank 1.
I wish you have good games in the future,
have fun improve you skills against wraith and all those killers.
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It took me no time at all, but i played a lot of killer before ever touching survivor. I think it mostly comes down to game sense but your reasoning for "killer does better in low rank" is because is killer largely is based off mistakes survivors make. Low rank survivors tend to make a lot of mistakes and just run from killers in a straight line. Higher and mid ranks where both sides are experienced, survivors tend to have the advantage over most killers.
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In my experience, people still mess up at high ranks more than people think, they’ve just learned how to correct those mistakes better.
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If they didn't the killer would never get more than 1 kill if that
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Killers also make mistakes, those mistakes can often cost you.
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Of course Survivor has a higher skill cap.
Survivor has more moving parts. There are four of them, after all. Individually killer has a higher skill cap. But since there are four survivors, survivor has a higher skill cap because it includes team play and not just individual play.
Team play = more choices and possibilities. More choices means higher skill cap.
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They will costs you, often more than a survivor mistake because survivor perks and items are mostly to correct mistakes (distance, stealth, and healing) you get hit as a survivor from a bad loop you use the speed boost to get away and try to heal. You get blinded or pallet stunned while carrying a survivor you just lost all your map pressure and have to waste time doing the same thing again and now the survivor has a chance to get away
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You can easily avoid that happening to you as killer, you can hear survivors approaching, bait them and just play it safe when flashlights are being used. Mistakes can cost you as survivor too, also, healing perks aren’t for correcting mistakes.
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I don't know where this "Killer relies on Survivor Mistakes" nonsense came from. Some idiot streamer every killer idolizes no doubt. It's so popular and every killer totes it like gospel, but it's nonsense.
Both parties rely on the other making mistakes. Anybody who actually plays survivor without bias knows that if the killer makes mistakes in tracking that's when they can stay hidden. And it's the same in many other aspects of the game.
There's a reason why survivors can stomp low skill killers. It's because low skill killers make mistakes. Same survivors will go up against a higher skill killer and get smashed. That's because that killer made less mistakes.
So sick of whiny killers with a victim complex who think they are so weak and powerless, that they can only win if survivors make mistakes. Grow up you guys and take ownership of your game play.
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As someone who has played both sides, yeah I agree.
It's easy to forget that Survivor is more than just Holding M1 on generators until it's done. You also need to have situational awareness of where the killer is and whether or not an area is safe.
Sometimes you can even use the killer's powers against them and get away easy and scott free if you can accurately gauge what kind of player you're up against. Changing your strategies accordingly.
I know there was that one time I made a Hag with invisible traps confused when I run all over the traps she placed down right after she started a chase with someone. Basically using her advantage against her.
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Likewise, people who actually believe the opposite play more killer than survivor.
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You know I've seen you post a few times complaining about killers and going on rants, which is fine it's really common actually, but you know you'd look less silly if you didn't combine your rants with "YOU'RE A BIASED KILLER MAIN"
especially when what i said doesn't line up with what you're ranting about. Killers are OP right and can kill you no matter if you make a mistake or not right....so why would me saying the opposite make me "a whiny victim saying killers are powerless" ?
ALSO good time to bring up the fact I was "warned" for saying i don't play PC because it's full ot racist ######### and it was considered "attacking another player" apparently
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The widespread belief that "killers can only kill if survivors make mistakes" is pretty common among killer mains, for starters. And it's always accompanied by rhetoric like, "Survivors are the Power Role" and "Survivors can genrush in 4 minutes and you cannot do anything about it as killer no matter if you play perfectly."
If you do not believe in those last two ideas I'd be pleasantly surprised. Prove me wrong and tell me you don't agree with them.
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You're the exception then. There are always exceptions to the rule.
So you believe that killers are weaker than survivors, and killers can only win if survivors make mistakes?
Do you believe that if survivors play the perfect game, the killer cannot win. But if killers play the perfect game, they cannot win unless survivors make mistakes?
For the record, I don't play red rank killer. I never reach that. But it's irrelevant. You are free to argue it is, just say it: You think my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not good enough at the game. Go on. I know you want to make that argument.
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Survivor is the power position lol, even in my first games as survivor i was winning back to back. And honestly the only times i really struggle are in games with stealth killers because i don't pay attention and they cut out the strongest part of survivor play, looping.
And you can you do something against gen rushing, its called ruin. That's about it. Gen rushing is a weird topic because its literally the only objective as survivor, i don't know what people expect us to do, just walk around? When i lose as killer its normally because gens were done incredibly fast but if anything its more justification to gen rush because the longer you're in the game the stronger killers become so why would you ignore your one objective in order to allow the killer to snowball?
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That is another way of saying "majority of killers are not viable to versus competent survivors"
It is not that killers don't want to get good, but you can only be that good because of how the weaker killers work. They have limited tools that can only do so much.
For example like legion, you're basically a M1 killer, and his power has low skill cap too. There is nothing to get good at how to use his power, especially when all survivors are separate. You basically only get a free 1st hit, fatigue, and be M1 killer with no power at all
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So I was right on the money, huh? I knew you believed those things. Didn't take rocket science to figure that out.
Naturally in your first survivor games you were winning back to back. You played tons of killer before you even touched survivor. You were no newb when you started playing survivors. A lot of skills from both sides are transferrable. If you were good as killer you know survivor pathing and killer pathing, and understand how killer plays. So it's a lot easier for you to avoid killers as survivor, even if you never played survivor.
My first killer game I 4K'd the poor Rank 20 survivors I was paired up against, because I played tons of Survivor before hand. I was even whiffing a lot of my shots but they could never escape me because I knew exactly where they were running. And I was using Nurse at the time and was getting hit by fatigue a lot. They still couldn't escape me even if I walked slower.
Gen rush is prevented not just by ruin. The real way to prevent genrush is map pressure. If you exert enough pressure, gens don't get done. I will agree that sometimes a killer cannot exert enough map pressure. But that isn't just something solely dependent on survivor mistakes. It's also dependent on killer mistakes and killer playing well, and also a bit of luck. If you're patrolling the wrong place you didn't "make a mistake" you just got unlucky, but it definitely counts against you and makes it easier to gen rush. Ditto for survivors. If the survivor got unlucky and were right in the path of the killer's patrol they are going to have a vastly different game from if the killer were patrolling somewhere else. Luck is a real thing in this game, like it or not.
What I am against is this victim mentality that killers have that they can only win if the survivors make mistakes. It's ridiculous. Why keep playing then, if the game is out of your control? It's silly. A game where your input doesn't matter isn't a game worth playing.
It also belies a certain arrogance. Basically, a killer who believes, "Killer only wins if survivor makes mistakes," is basically saying, "I never make mistakes, I only lose because the survivors didn't make mistakes." And that's just ridiculous. Everybody makes mistakes. Maybe the reason you lost, was because you made a mistake, not because the other didn't make any?
Genrush can be prevented by smart killer play. Tons of Red Rank killers and streamers prove this. Even if you need to bring out the best killers (Nurse) it is still true.
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Every survivor has to be aware of four people as well. The obvious threat of the killer. And the more subtle but potentially far more detrimental effect of your team. Making correct plays requires you to be aware of all four people on both sides.
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No, killers are harder. It's easier to have at least 1 survivor survive than to have 4k.
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Personally, I find playing survivor more difficult than killer. I can rarely play against killers the way high skill survivors play against me. I try and it always seems like I can never quite make it to the next pallet or window in time. And it seems so effortless when I'm on the other side of things.
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survivors are actually harder to rank up IMO. bsaically mericiless every other match with the hag/wraith/huntress and almost at rank 11 (not that this is high or anything) however i'll be lucky to just 1 pip as a survivor even when playing at my best (all 4 escaped, escaped through hatch opened exit gate, multiple uhooks, 2.5 gens personally repaired, never got hit, never got into a chase, sabotaged 5 hooks.. healed 3 team mates and myself....and..saftey pip..uh huh...it's like it just rolls a dice at the end of the match to see if you get a saftey or a +1 regardless of performance 😂 For some reason it is easier for a killer to get a mericiless than it is for a survivor to 2 pip. This could be because survivors are legitimately harder to play, or just because of an anomaly..not sure.
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That's just it though. You're basing this on the idea that they are actually working towards the same goal. You can never rely on your team to do their part towards escaping. They may be totem hunting. Looting chests. They could be Urban Evading around the map. You don't know what they're going to do. You then have to try to figure out what role you're playing that game based on your team.
All of that before you get to the killer. As you try to figure out what killer it is. What perks you're facing. If you end up in a chase what mind games will they try.
See you seem to be coming at this under the assumption your team will be competent and pulling their weight. That's alot rarer then you'd think.
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IMO, survivors have a higher skill ceiling and i base it on this...
4 new survivors vs 1 new killer... my money is on the killer
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Tell that to all the people who have farmed and sandbagged me.
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Fair enough. Ignoring the strawman statement, let's focus back on the OP's discussion and your revised statement.
"Killer must be aware of 4 people, not just 1 person. You have to succeed at doing that more than 4 other people. You have to do that better than 4 people."I agree. BUT and this is where I take a lot of exception: that is balanced out by the Killer Being the Power Role.
The killer has to do the work of four people, but the killer is significantly more powerful than any single survivor. That is the crux of asymmetric game design like this.
If the killer isn't the power role, it breaks because it doesn't work. The player on the 1-side of the 4v1 has to have a more powerful role. And that is absolutely the case in DBD.
Your argument is basically saying:
- The killer needs to do more than four times the work of the survivor.
- In other words, the killer does more work than the survivor.
- Ergo, because the killer does more work than the survivor, the killer requires more skill.
That is basically the crux of your argument.
But this is a false equivalence. We can see this if we break down the work in "units." Survivors each need to say 100 units of work. But a killer by your argument is doing 400 units of work. This makes it look like the killer is doing a lot more.
But here's the counter argument: Because the killer is the power role, one unit of work for a killer does a lot more than one unit of work for a survivor. In other words, each unit of work he does is amplified and not equal to one unit of work of a survivor. Just a theoretical number, but each unit of work a killer does is worth 4 units of survivor.
I don't know if that's the right number, this is just theoretical. But the point is, the killer isn't necessarily doing "more work." That is because he is the stronger role. Thus, I refute you saying that the killer takes more skill just because he is doing "more work."
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Because you have to factor for these things. You have to plan around your team farming and sandbagging you. Your team can be far more dangerous than the killer.
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How can you speak with such certainty that genrush cannot be stopped?
Do you play at the highest level and never make mistakes?
I'll tell you how I can tell that genrush can indeed be stopped. I see it done all the time by killer streamers who stomp survivors at Rank 1. Some of them even do it without perks! If these streamers didn't exist I might accept your thesis. But since they do, I refute your assertion that genrush cannot be stopped.
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Do you think you have sen every permutation of the game?
Why don't you answer that before I say anything further.
What you're saying isn't good enough for me either.
"Killers can never be gen rushed because I haven't ever seen a killer get gen rushed who didn't deserve it" isn't good enough for me.Now who's doing strawmans? Don't accuse me of doing strawmans and throwing in your own.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Desperately want drag leather face cosmetic
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Yes but drag Leatherface greater than drag billy. If they can get the Lc for it , I want them to, Bc my pockets are burning for it. However, if not yeah drag billy would be nice. I’ll cheers to that, all anyone wants is to look pretty.
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I never said killers never get genrushed.
Like I said, stop strawmanning.
Killers who get genrushed are killers who got outplayed by their opponent. I have never said that a good killer can never be genrushed. I even state in the lengthy post you completely ignored that a lot of it is luck-based.
I will agree that sometimes a killer cannot exert enough map pressure. But that isn't just something solely dependent on survivor mistakes. It's also dependent on killer mistakes and killer playing well, and also a bit of luck. If you're patrolling the wrong place you didn't "make a mistake" you just got unlucky, but it definitely counts against you and makes it easier to gen rush. Ditto for survivors.Not sure where you're getting all these strawmans.
Like I said, you are not interested in an intelligent discussion. You are just putting words in my mouth and arguing what you want as it fits your narrative.
Seriously dude. Stop talking to me if you're not going to take this seriously.
-no, I dont, couldn't possibly have. Therefore, when other people say they have, and especially if they can back it up with something tangible that I can also see, I believe it. Without "sour grapes"-ing the experience.Look. You are saying other people have seen every permutation of the game and they state with confidence that the Killer is weak and cannot counter genrush. Who exactly are the people who say they know everything about this game? Tell me, bring them here, and I will refute them. All you are doing is Appealing to Authority (another fallacy like the Strawman). You are not giving me any actual arguments to sway my opinion.
But I am telling you there are streamers out there who can counter genrush. There is actual video evidence of it.
As for the Unit of Work, here is the Cliffnotes version:
- Killers are the Power Role
- Everything a killer does is more impactful than what a survivor does
- Ergo, playing killer is not necessarily more skillful than playing a survivor, even if its' a 4v1.
Post edited by Rizzo on0
