The Demogorgon
Hello people of the fog! First post here, I hope it will turn out ok!
I'm a demogorgon main. Just want to give a shout out to the devs on how great of a job they did on demogorgon! One of the most fun killers to play against and to play AS. That being said, there is one small thing that bothers me; Shred incentive.
Let me first start by defining what I mean by that. (Insert power name) incentive for me is a game mechanic that rewards you for using your power should you decide to use it. Right now, the incentive for using shred is that it can cut down on many different loops if you correctly mind-gamed the survivor and the survivor doesn't react properly. So far so good. But I want something more.. There is no incentive for using his shred when you are right behind them. I'll coin the term, 'backshred.'
Think about the huntress or billy. What are their incentives for back-rev'ing or back-ax'ing? It's simple, the billy can 1 shot you and the huntress doesn't get slowed down after landing a hit. Why is this fun for survivors? It provides an opportunity for the killer that the survivors can take advantage of. The most fun situations I have in this game are when I make a billy whiff on a back-rev or when I force the huntress to m1 me after 30 seconds of 5 missed hatchets. We need more of this kind of gameplay! What's the incentive for the demogorgon to backshred?...... Nothing.
Here are my proposed changes!
Shred now applies a short hindered buff of 1-3 seconds that slightly counter-acts the sprint burst you get from getting hit. The hindered could only take away a small percentage of speed that gets taken away from that speed burst, maybe 10-20%. Or 30-40%, Idk, you guys decide on the numbers.
You could also put in a minor stbfl buff on shred so that the cooldown isn't 3s after a shred, but instead 2.75s or what have you. (Just nothing too large, imo.)
Or, a baseline debuff like blindness can be applied to shred. (The more I think about it, the more excited I get with all the possibilities!)
I had other ideas like shred hitting a maximum of 2 people, but I didn't know if that would help the back-shred problem, which makes for more stale gameplay.
What do you guys think? I'd love for the demogorgon to have this incentive of some sort so that I can start making them whiff on backshreds!
Comments
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I like the idea, blindness as a status effect is pretty worthless right now though. Hindered is a little better.
Personally Demi's biggest issue is that his shred has too high of risk for very little reward. His shred is very easy to dodge and is heavily punishing for a miss. I get something like this with say Billy for example since he has high reward with a 1 shot. However, Demi's isn't a 1 shot and Billy actually has way more control with his saw than Demi's lunge (referring to curving and direction change flicking on release) which in turn makes it much easier to land.
I think his lunge should be a 1 shot if fully charged and his lunge missed recovery should be lessened.
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I think demogorgon might be too strong if he was given a 1 shot, but im glad you agree generally!
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Nooooooo. I’m not even great with Demogorgon as I only have 3 matches played with him but the lunge being a one shot is incredibly OP. It’s basically Iridescent Head 2.0. Just get on the survivors’ ass and down them. It’s about as easy/difficult to dodge as a hatchet. Depends if the Demogorgon is good or not. A one shot lunge should be an add-on at best but even then it’s very powerful. You’re making it seem as though it’s very easy to dodge, it’s not.
Demo is in a good place, he is NOT weak in the slightest. His footsteps shouldn’t be so loud on the killers’ end though. It’s very distracting. He just suffers against a good competent team as most killers do.
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The hitbox on shred should be bigger
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I wouldn't mind more turning power on Shred. Not a huge amount of turning, but enough to scare survivors.
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You're basing this on 3 games...
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Based on personal experience and seeing other people play the Demogorgon. He’s been released for nearly two months. I KNOW how his shred ability works. It’s so similar to Huntress. I wouldn’t have went into detail if I didn’t know how his power worked. Just like I’m terrible at Huntress but I still know how her power works.
An instadown shred will lead to nothing but complains (honestly rightfully so) and cheap wins. Chases would end in a matter of seconds. As I said...basically Iridescent Head 2.0. Explain to me how anybody would think this is a good idea as his base-kit. Even an add-on is too much.
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If we're being honest here I've played like a couple hundred games on demogorgon. I think a 1 shot is too much.
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Having put a decent amount of hours into him, I think the hitbox is perfect. I think there should be some counter-play to being able to dodge the shred, (which there definintely is) and at the same time, I'm landing hits that some people never thought anyone could hit.
Post edited by MouseBoii on0 -
Is this at rank 1?
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They’ve played a couple hundred games as Demo. Even if they weren’t at Rank 1, why does it matter? Their opinion on Demogorgon is based on their experience playing a bunch of games.
You wanted to make it seem as though my opinion doesn’t matter because I have only played Demo a few times but then when somebody does have an opinion on Demo who has played a lot you wanna throw out “Is this at Rank 1?”
Red ranks isn’t the end all be all by the way. You can find decent survivors in purple and green ranks. A Rank 8 can be better than a Rank 2. The Rank 2 just plays more often.
Saying that, I’m pretty sure they’ve made it to red ranks in a couple hundred games.
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With Demogorgon, I think the shred hitbox should be slightly wider it seems like it's punishingly narrow and it doesn't work with verticality. I also think his Teachable Perks need to be stronger in radius Cruel Limits probably needs to be doubled in size or it drops pallets in current radius. Surge might need a wider area 48M, Mindbreaker should have Blindness on top of it to make it more varied in use.
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Yes.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/965/14XPZKVNYNM8.jpgI'd like to add that the idea of a 1 shot charge had entered my head, but I don't see a way it could be balanced even if you had to hold it for like 5s. Too tough, too dramatic of a change.
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"They’ve played a couple hundred games as Demo. Even if they weren’t at Rank 1, why does it matter? Their opinion on Demogorgon is based on their experience playing a bunch of games."
It matters significantly. If I was just playing Demi at rank 10 I would think he's godlike and didn't need any changes because survivors at that rank play dumb and make something look stronger than it is.
"You wanted to make it seem as though my opinion doesn’t matter because I have only played Demo a few times but then when somebody does have an opinion on Demo who has played a lot you wanna throw out “Is this at Rank 1?”"
Yes, because times playing something is pretty important. That should be just common sense.
I simply asked him the rank of those games. You make it sound like, No LiER@!!. That isn't what happened.
"Red ranks isn’t the end all be all by the way."
Red ranks games are significantly different than lower rank games. The only people that wouldn't agree with this are people who in fact don't play at red ranks.
"You can find decent survivors in purple and green ranks."
Just because there can be doesn't mean that is the norm.
My grandma can smoke her whole life and not get cancer. Does that mean smoking doesn't cause cancer? No, obviously not. GENERALLY, they will be much worse.
"The Rank 2 just plays more often."
While time is a large factor, red ranks aren't just because they played more.
"Saying that, I’m pretty sure they’ve made it to red ranks in a couple hundred games."
And they simply may have. All I did was ask a question and you just jumped quite hard at me.
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It's a full charge of it, not a tap which is quite a bit. His lunge is also quite easily juked.
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It only takes 1s to fully charge. It's true that his lunge can be juked, but when you play as much as I do, you realize that back shredding is as easy as hitting a back hatchet, probably more easy, when you become patient with it. (which I do, I love me those damn bloodpoints.)
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shred through windows! like he leaps through them and finishes the shred... would look awesome and take a way windows but not the rest of the counterplay that currently exists
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I just hate the argument “WaS iT @ RaNk 1?!” You find good players at any rank above 10. I’ve had rounds where I had a Rank 2 Claudette go down in 15 seconds and the Rank 9 Kate was able to keep my occupied for two minutes and she escaped.
Once you get to a certain rank then you’ve pretty much reached the survivor skill cap. If they know how to look behind them and run tiles correctly then they are considered a “good survivor”. There are potatoes at every rank ya know :/
So since I’ve played countless games of Spirit you’d value my opinion of Spirit more than my opinion on Demogorgon? Everybody knows how he works. It’s no mystery. He doesn’t require any sort of muscle memory like Nurse or Huntress. You can go into a game and do just fine. I’ve seen many videos on how he is played. His power isn’t difficult, basically an easier Huntress with map control.
Just because somebody doesn’t have thousands of hours of one killer under their belt doesn’t mean they don’t know what they are talking about.
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That's understandable. I can just count on one hand the amount of times I've been hit as a survivor with his lunge since release and it feels extremely easy for its included risk.
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Back shredding with an instadown would be equivalent to a Huntress hitting back hatchets with Iridescent Head. It would be very powerful and wouldn’t be very smart to implement ESPECIALLY on his base-kit.
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It definitely is risky. You can reset entire loops or let them get to a whole different much stronger loop if you miss.
However, his shred is seriously under-rated in the community. You honestly need to put in a couple hundred games to start to see the potential it has. (Just like huntress hatchets or billy curves, these skills take time to develop in the community.) And it's potential is very solid. I can easily shut down any jungle gym, long-short wall, killer shack, L-T walls, and miscellaneous long debris loops. (Oh, it def shuts down a couple of otherwise would be infinite's for m1 killers.) And if you're looping at something that a demogorgon can use his shred on, it's probably an unsafe pallet anyway. The only thing demogorgon can't do well on are the rock loops on macmillan maps.
I've seen good survivors try to adapt mid chase and I've seen some sick mindgames that I don't think many people even know exist yet. Love this killer!
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"I just hate the argument “WaS iT @ RaNk 1?!”"
If you don't play at rank 1 then of course you will think this. You can't really dispute something that you haven't experienced.
"You find good players at any rank above 10. I’ve had rounds where I had a Rank 2 Claudette go down in 15 seconds and the Rank 9 Kate was able to keep my occupied for two minutes and she escaped."
So have I, but that doesn't mean it is any less true. Just because you can find good or bad players at all ranks doesn't mean that is the norm. You will generally find much better survivors at higher ranks most of the time.
"Once you get to a certain rank then you’ve pretty much reached the survivor skill cap. If they know how to look behind them and run tiles correctly then they are considered a “good survivor”."
Then they would be at red ranks. There is a massive difference between rank 10 and rank 1 survivors in most scenarios.
"There are potatoes at every rank ya know :/"
I agree, but that doesn't make what I'm saying any less true.
"So since I’ve played countless games of Spirit you’d value my opinion of Spirit more than my opinion on Demogorgon?"
Of course. More experience > less experience. I figure that's a given.
"Everybody knows how he works. It’s no mystery. He doesn’t require any sort of muscle memory like Nurse or Huntress. You can go into a game and do just fine. I’ve seen many videos on how he is played. His power isn’t difficult, basically an easier Huntress with map control."
I do think Huntress is much harder as you've said, but I would never presume an understanding of any sort on a killer from little play time and simply watching videos. Watching videos and playing are two very different things.
"Just because somebody doesn’t have thousands of hours of one killer under their belt doesn’t mean they don’t know what they are talking about."
I never said any of that.
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Ya, if you read my post, I was only suggesting very minor changes to add an inventive to back-shred.
I think gameplay can be far more fun if the demogorgon has a reason to back-shred you, opening up the possibilities to outplay his shred. Why is that a bad thing?
Sounds like a win-win to me.
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Ya, if you read my post, I was only suggesting very minor changes to add an inventive to back-shred.
I think gameplay can be far more fun if the demogorgon has a reason to back-shred you, opening up the possibilities to outplay his shred. Why is that a bad thing?
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You'd be surprised how many good survivors can outplay a back shred. I'm max deviousness about 30% into the game already. There's no good incentive past that. Even if I run STBFL I still get max deviousnous.
Honestly, this is a win-win. The changes I suggested are so small.
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Oh trust me...I’m at Rank 1. All. The. Time. I get there like a day after rank reset sadly. I also play on console so good luck to me trying to down survivors through corn. Not my corn blind ass.
I just don’t believe rank matters as much as some people emphasize. There is of course a gap between Rank 16 and Rank 1 but the gap gets significantly smaller as you get to purple ranks. You can die every round and still manage to get to red ranks. I don’t run into these “godly sweaty SWF groups” every round like some players claim.
I’m saying that Demo’s skill cap isn’t as large as Huntress, Nurse, or even Spirit. There are some instances like knowing when to fake a shred attack, when you actually have a clear shot, when to teleport through your portals, etc...but mechanically he’s your basic killer. If you have good perks then you’ll do just fine. You won’t miserably lose your first hundred matches like Nurse.
I also didn’t mean to come off aggressive toward you so I apologize about that.
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Same way you outplay a Huntress with a hatchet 10 inches from you or Billy back revving you. Hope they’re bad and they miss.
When I play Demo, Huntress, or Billy I get very disoriented when survivors hug my character model when charging an attack and I lose LOS to them. I’m also a console pleb so it’s not gonna work on PC as opposed to console
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It's totally fine and I would completely agree on "I’m saying that Demo’s skill cap isn’t as large as Huntress, Nurse, or even Spirit."
I personally think Huntress has the highest skill cap in the game. I'd probably even put Spirit over Nurse in terms of difficulty. Most would put Nurse I know though.
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While it's definitely in the killers favor, they're already behind you so they deserve to be rewarded for it, but the possibility of outplaying them and completely screwing them over is always a fun experience. Right now for demo, there's no incentive.
I don't know much about console, but if you match a good huntress vs a good survivor, making her miss is still very likely on pc.
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But you can never down anyone with a shock. For any killer that has a power that damages survivors, there is a large amount of incentive to use that power when you're right behind them. (Huntress, billy, myers, ghost face, leatherface, plague.)
I'm not saying that shred is not viable.. It is.. I just see an opportunity to make the game more fun.
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I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of argument. None of what you're saying seems to be consistent with the argument that I propose.
Huntress and plague both have powers that damage survivors but do not 1 shot them, so that argument is invalid. Could the huntress just m1 you twice and that be the end of it? Yeaaa..... But she has incentive to use her power that is hard to use when they're right in front of her.
You quite literally are telling me something that my whole argument is predicated on; There is no reason to use a shred when someone is right in front of you. And that's true, that's what I stated in my original post. That's the problem that I outline. I really feel like you're not understanding what I'm saying.
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I wouldn't mind a small hindered effect with a successful shred. That seems relatively fair to me.
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I think it takes a little too long to be able to use a Shred and to fully charge one. I was thinking we could start at the minimum charge to use a Shred at around 35% and have it take 0.75 seconds to fully charge one and then add a charge time reduction and Shred range increase to some of his existing add-ons. It feels weird not having any Shred charge time or range increase add-ons like other Killers with damaging powers do. Numbers can be adjusted if needed.
A Hindered or Mangled effect would make sense because it’s an 8 or 9 foot tall monster leaping towards you at very high speeds. You would expect to have a bigger wound or reduced movement speed after an attack like that. Maybe we could put an Exposed effect for Shred into the Leprose Lichen add-on? The current effect doesn’t seem that good for an Ultra Rare (I’ve never used the add-on though).
One more thing, his Undetectable and power cooldown add-ons need some fixing. The rare cooldown add-on reduces it by 2 seconds while the very rare one reduces it by only 2.5 seconds. I was thinking it’d be at least a four second reduction. A .5 second increase doesn’t really seem worth it for a very rare add-on. The rare Undetectable add-on only increases the effect by a second and the very rare one increases it by two seconds. They seem like common and uncommon add-ons instead of rare and very rare.
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According to your logic, that's a buff to his ability, and thats a no-go.
If you cannot understand why I would like to see an incentive for players to land a back shred, then leave the thread, because you don't understand the fundamental premise of the argument that I've stated to you over 4 times now. It's getting boring saying the same thing over and over.
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Which is exactly what I've been thinking. Adding some type of effect that is so small that won't really effect gameplay too much may inadvertently be a nerf in some sense of the word if it means more demo's will miss more hits that would normally be m1's. Why anyone would argue against it is so bizarre to me... Especially considering his power is not really something to be afraid of like a huntress hatchet or a billy saw.
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I wonder if the people who are arguing against it also think Billy's saw is OP. Demo's Shred doesn't do anything aside from injure the Survivor.
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I saw hexy looping a billy for like 90 seconds while complaining the whole time how broken billy was. He then proceeded to throw and let himself get sawed because of how angry he was at billy. Some people are very odd.
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Demo is a decent killer. Decent is not good enough for this game, sadly. Any buffs that come his way would need to be significant to matter even slightly, otherwise there won't be much of an impact on how he plays/how survivors play versus him. Slight turning on shred isn't going to make Demo any better, nor will it change the dynamic between it and survivors in a backshred situation.
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