Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
The release of killer statistics showed glaring problems in group think and balance.
Comments
-
A 2k is usually a de-pip at red ranks, a 3k a safe pip. If you want to draw conclusions from the very limited information, then you would have to come to the conclusion that the average killer de-pips at red ranks.
I don't see how this is favouring killers.
We also don't know anything about the winning (pipping) statistics for survivors at red ranks.
2 -
I'll just copy/paste my reply to another user:
A 2k is usually a de-pip at red ranks, a 3k a safe pip. If you want to draw conclusions from the very limited information, then you would have to come to the conclusion that the average killer de-pips at red ranks.
I don't see how this is favouring killers.
We also don't know anything about the winning (pipping) statistics for survivors at red ranks.
1 -
So now we are moving the goal posts to "winning" based on pipping? In my three years of playing this game, I have yet to meet anyone in after game chat that said "Wow guys, I didn't win. I 4kd all of you, but I didn't pip : ( sadpandaface"
The majority of the posts on here talk about balance around kill ratios, also. You are debating in bad faith. Also, when I say "favored", I'm obviously talking about kill/escape ratios, not pipping.
You're then twisting my argument. My argument is that the game is killer sided at red ranks because MOST times, MOST of the survivors do not escape. You could most certainly draw this conclusion from the statistics.
0 -
That sounds like a problem with the emblem system, and not the actual balance between survivors and killers. BHVR has stated that the ideal average kill-rate should be 50%, so it sounds like the emblem system should be reworked to fit that ideal. 1-0 kills should be a depip, 2 kills should be a safe pip, 3 kills should be a single pip, 4 kills should be a 2-pip.
2 -
Pips are supposed to show how you performed in a match. Pips decide at which rank you play. With the current system, pips & winning are very much related. It's not my system, it's the devs' system.
1 -
I don't understand why they chose to release kill rates in the first place, it leaves you with little info. Also kill rates do include suicides on hook thus they are flawed to begin with.
The interesting thing wouldve been pips.
4 -
Pips are what currently defines whether you "won" or "lost". So if we want to talk about whether killers or survivors are favoured, we can't ignore the pips. Pip statistics are as important as statistics about the difference between solos and SWFs.
I don't know how long you have been playing the game. Your suggestion is basically the old Victory Cube.
1 -
Kill rates released that DEFINITELY show that survivors are NOT FAVORED at red ranks.
People on the forum: "This means nothing. We kept saying that survivors are favored against killers when it comes to ESCAPING. Now that the stats show that we were wrong, it's time to move the entire conversation to something else to prove our point.
Wow.
1 -
Well then, pips are a terrible way to determine whether you won or lost. If the survivors literally just stand around and do nothing all game, and just let the killer down and hook every single one of them, the killer probably won't even pip. In fact, they might depip.
The current emblem system punishes you for trying to accomplish your main objective as quickly and optimally as possible. Compared to virtually any other PvP ranking system, emblems are a joke.
3 -
We don't even know the difference between solo and SWF teams. If you take a look at the forums, most of the complaints of killer mains are about balance issues with SWF teams at high ranks.
And pips tell you whether you "won" or "lost". It's the rating system the devs have implemented, so we can't ignore it.
Before you get a wrong impression, I'm a survivor main.
4 -
The end doesn't justify the means (hope I use this phase correctly).
One can look at the stats and goes "that's it, the stat say that killer get 3K therefore the game is favouring killer". The problem is that the stat is just that, red rank kill got 3k. It doesn't account for survivor suicide on first hook just to spite the killer, doesn't like the map/killer or anything that might not accurately reflect the real situation. Like someone mentioned earlier, there are many players aim to burn through the time and would suicide on hook just to get into next game faster. The new matchmaking that matches the killer based on highest rank of survivor also do not help at all. All these factoring into the stats, it will certainly lead to an inaccurate portrayal of the whole picture, which is exactly why peanits ask us to not draw any conclusion from the stats.
2 -
That is something we can agree on.
0 -
None of what you said matters to the FACT. The FACT that if you queue into a game at red ranks, YOU ARE not FAVORED vs the KILLER. This is just LOGIC. This is basic LOGIC. This is what separates us from a house tomato.
1 -
OK. I'm sorry I'm so stupid. But I want a super smart person like you to answer me these two question.
- ON AVERAGE, if you are a red rank killer, are you favored most of your games?
- If you nerf the all mighty seal team SWF, which according to the forum is 100 percent of games, what do you think is going to happen to those numbers? Are they going to go up or down.
I'm too stupid to know. So can you help me out?
0 -
Clearly YOU don't understand statistics. As you increase the numbers it will continually get closer and closer to 75% percent. But if they aren't getting over 2 kills they will never actually GET to 75%
1 -
What? I'm actually dumbfounded by your statement. You accuse me of being stupid and that I don't know statistics, while simultaneously showing that you don't understand statistics.
If a killer has a 74 percent kill ratio, they are on average, more likely to get a 3k than they are a 2k.
0 -
Answer to 1: Lol I don't care about average against randos playing together. If you look at at ANY asymmetrical games that's ever came out the randos are almost ALWAYS out classed by the power role cause they have no team work. It's only supposed to be balanced when the tram works TOGETHER. Meaning we should be shooting for a 50 50 win ratio against SFW not nobodies lol.
2 wasn't even a coherrent question.
1 -
Ehhhh WRONG try again.
Let's take for example. 2/4 that's a 50% ratio.
But a 1/4 is 25%
By you're logic this would mean killers are less likely to get 2k
Now let's bump it up 19/40. That's a 47%% ratio if you keep humping it up gets even close
29/60 that's a 48% ratio
And by your logic this would mean they are more likely to get a 2k when really nothing has changed. At the end of they day they still are not achieving 2k average.
Meanwhile the Gap is getting BIGGER
The higher the number the CLOSER YOU GET TO IT BUT UNLESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY MEETING IT YOU EONT EVER AXHIEVE IT.
GO BACK TO SCHOOL
0 -
Favored? Depends how you look at it but kills are not everything in this game. So looking at pips in red ranks killers vs survivors would be interesting to determine favored as well dont you agree?
The stats also show that most killers average a 2k ofc with tendencies but still in the overall average. They show that no side is actually favored not even the mean op spirit. 😂
3 -
OK. So then you don't care about averages that are a picture of the overall health of the game. Cool.
And my logic is correct. If there were a 48 percent kill ratio, you are more likely to get a 2k than you are a 1k. Like, I can't believe this.
0 -
So with this logic, farming killers win the game I think. Because they get pip but they have 0 kills. So farming killers win the game.
Amblem system is not reliable. Should not be reliable. The gamestyle of killer force people to do another playing style which causes survivors to get -pip. He is facecamping with bubba. So it is impossible to save the hooked survivor, no survival chance at least for 1 of survivors. So other survivors will do gen rush and escape. Probably because of the althurism and boldness category, they may not get pip or even they get -pip. But they escaped. But according to your logic 3 survivors lost the game. Bubba has 1 kill. Did Bubba win actually? Did survivors lose the game?
This is just a system which actually depends on the points. How much points you get may change by the playing style of killer(salty style like camping, tunneling). It does not mean that killer is good. It does not mean anything. So the emblem system also. This system is written by people and depending on the bloodpoints(safe unhooking helps you to get pip and gives you more BP, unsafe unhooking gives you less BP and depips you. If the killer chase you, you start getting points and get pip also more than you sabotage the hooks. The system has some basic logic which can not be applied to the all situations because the logic is limited, and is not comprehensive enough). So it can not tell whether players played well.
0 -
Lol you can't round statistics like that. If you at 48% you're more likely to get 1k than a 2k
If you're at 48% by DEFINITION you are averaging a 1k more than you are a 2k otherwise you'd be at 50 or higher. Until you hit 51% you are not more likely to get a 2k lol
I even mathed it out for you, and the higher the number the bigger that GAP gets it takes EVEN MORE to actually get to that 50% average
0 -
Lol you can't round statistics like that.
A 48% BY DEFINITION means you are more likely to get a 1 than a 2k because you were actually more likely to get a 2k then you'd be at 51% or higher.
And the bigger the number the harder it is to maintain.
Like wise until you're actually ABOVE 75 aka 75.q or higher you're NOT more likely to get a 3k
Oh and since it's an asymetrical game, I care about how it's balanced towards asymmetrical gameplay with an actual team. Not randos cause randos on the same team are not an accurate representation for how an asymmetrical game is balanced.
Any solid killer SHOULD 9 times out 10 wreck a team of randos
But the statistics don't even show that happening lol.
0 -
Yeah, I agree with ya man. This data is pointless.
0 -
A kill ratio of 75% average(!) does not mean the killer is OP. Did you notice how many matches end with either 2k or 4k? 3k is more rare because many killers slug to get 4k. 3k is only possible if the last one gets hatch or the exit gate in time. And guess what the average of 50% and 100% is: right. 75%. This is more often practiced at red ranks, because even one escape can cost you your pip.
But why is the kill ratio that high at all ranks? Because killers are more powerful on lower ranks.
"That stats say, Freddy is broken." No he is not. He's an M1 killer (and with that, loopable unlike Spirit/Nurse) where you have to do some memory work (remembering his fake pallets). "But his pallets..." Just wake up man, and use your brain. "But his infinite repair build..." Yes, you can't genrush then, and I'm glad of it. "He's got wall hack with BBQ with teleport..." Nurse too. And don't forget Billy or Spirit. Oh... almost forgot it: wake up! But that does not make him broken.
Nurse, Plague and Huntress have worse kill rates because console is included and these do not work that well with a controller. And only few Nurse's are good and the good ones are most likely on PC and on red ranks, that's why she kills 48% at all ranks and 70% at red ranks. And I think her ratio would be higher if we would sort out those matches where the red rank killer was just doing the daily with Nurse but was bad with her.
Those stats are just that: stats with a lot of flaws (console/PC not separated etc.). They tell everything and nothing at the same time. Would there be this discussion "Killer x is OP" or "the game is clearly killer sided" because the stats "prove" it, if there were no stats at all? Probably not. So I don't get it, why you make all the fuss about it now.
0 -
I am agree with you %100. Freddy was the weakest killer. It was necessary for him to be buffed. But they buffed too much. He is the strongest killer. Why?
-Teleporting
(It has 2 different and good advantages.)
*Finding another survivor easily *Gen pressure
After hooking someone else with barbeque and chili. He will be chasing another survivor because others will be probably doing gens. At least one of them will be working on a gen when Freddy hooks someone. So he will see her and teleport to there. Start chasing suddenly.
Also another problem is high gen pressure. Come on guys. He will teleport to the gens. He will always have the gen pressure better than other killers. After hooking someone else, he will teleport to the gen and hit it with pop goes to weasle and then start chasing another one.
-Dream State & Traps, Fake Pallets
He puts survivors into the dream state when he hits. Or survivors will be in the dream state easily after some time automatically. It is not easy to wake up. The dream escape may be on the other side of the map. So doing gens or waking yourself from the dream state? Most of players would choose doing gens while they are in the dream state still instead of going to the longest distance and wake themselves up. Also whenever other survivor tries to wake you up it is getting increadibly longer. So if you can not get rid of this, then you will be slowed or get another hit because of the fake pallets. Even you are not in the dream state and he did not hit you, you are in chase and you will be in the dream state after a while automatically. Another problem is everything is slower in dream state. Freddies tend to use perks like "Dying light" and also some add-ons which makes the action time for survivors so much longer. The game is ultra slow now. Also some of killers put another add-on which prevents survivors to wake themselves from the dream state when they miss the skillcheck. All these things at the same time is so much for a killer even he is m1 killer.
-Red Stain & Heartbeats
After you get a hit, you will be in dream state so you will not see the red stain and you will not be able to hear the heartbeats. It is too unfair. And think about killers in red ranks make so good mindgames and still walking by turning their backs. The heartbeat is important and it is more usefull than the lullaby.
This killer is unfair. He needs little nerfs. I am bored of seing Freddy at red ranks.(One of the reasons why I do not play at red ranks anymore. I am bored of seing same killers every single match. And so unenjoyable to play against Freddy especially.) Also the dream state effect is tiring my eyes and disgusting :D
0 -
I'm pulling away from this discussion. It started bad and is getting worse
2 -
So then you don't care about the average game. Just "seal team-SWF". So you want balance around the minority rather than the majority.
0 -
Jesus you need to go back to school 49 percent KILL RATIO means that you have not been averaging a 2k game nor does it mean you are more likely to get a 2k game.
If you WERE more likely to get a 2k then you would be at 51% or higher. AT BEST you could say it's a sign that they are moving CLOSER to actually getting a 2k kill on average
Again by DEFINITION if you're average is anything under50% you are NOT more likely to get a 2k.
You might be CLOSE but until you are ABOVE 50% average then it shows you are more likely to get a 1k than a 2k otherwise you'd actually be at 50% or higher and not anything lower than 50.
And there's was no rounding with the 25% lmfao
1/4 is EXACTLY 25% 🤣🤣🤣🤣
0 -
You're right about that. I was arguing to argue. Still, it shows that you are more likely to die at red ranks than survive.
Still though. I don't need to go back to school, I have a successful business and also do the online aspect of my buddies auction company. I can give you my facebook if you want to compare businesses. You do own your own business, right? Since you're much smarter than I.
0 -
I want balance around an asymetrical game.
You know the way it's supposed to be. Not how well killers can thrash randos grouped together.
0 -
Then what's "balance". I don't know how you balance an assymetric game against "seal team SWF" while trying to keep the game mainstream to increase revenue through DLC and season passes.
You would want base of players to increase your revenue, rather than balancing around a small portion of people that will most likely drive more people way, thereby decreasing your revenue.
You already said you don't care about the average snapshot. So then you "balance" around a small portion of people. Which would then increase the kill ratio even further.
0 -
I was going to retort but this literally has nothing to do with the post and now we're getting off the subject so I'm going to just go and check your most recent reply. But if you want to know what I was going to say I'm more than happy to pm the screenshot.
0 -
Literally every game I can think of balances towards their top players not towards their average players.
I'd be happy to see what games you know of that DONT balance towards their top players. Cause I can't think of a single one. Not to confuse it balances at the top end that benefitted their average player base
4 -
It's an asymmetric game. One persons abilities counters another persons skill. You live and die by map design. There is a certain skill ceiling in DbD, but it's not terribly high. So you can't compare something like Counter Strike to a game like DbD. There are no other games like DbD that are successful or have the player base.
So saying you are going to "balance" towards DbD's "top tier players" doesn't even make sense in this setting. Then let's balance around Scott Junds huntress. We can nerf huntress into the ground now since he regularly 4ks with her and would be considered "top tier".
Survivors and killers don't have access to the same tool set.
Thank you for showing my err in thinking with the statistic issue, but that seems to be where your "big brain" stops.
0 -
Having been R1 as survivor and killer for a long time, I find these statistics interesting. Yet, I feel that we have to be careful in interpreting these statistics and especially careful if we want to use them as reference for game balance. All the following thoughts are my ideas and based on my long experience.
1) Red ranks and all the statistics around it suffer from a problematic rating system:
- With the current rating system, reaching high ranks as survivor is far too easy. It is almost impossible to depip and relatively easy to gain one pip. Reaching red ranks is more a thing of playing many games than of actually being good.
- This causes that the skill differences on R5-R1 and between R1 survivors are as big as the grand canyon. There are many R1 survivors who make tons of mistakes both in mechanics and decision making and then there are few who are really good. There are so many R5-1 survivors who constantly make catastropic beginner mistakes.
- At the same time, I feel that reaching R1 as killer is currently quite a bit more challenging than it has ever been before. You can actually depip without playing horrible. You can even kill two people and still depip.
- If the above mentioned points are as I think they are, red ranks would often match survivors who got there because everyone basically gets there against killers who are a bit better/or have at least better perks which results in higher kill rates.
2) SWF Deathsquads and really good players are hidden in the statistics:
- The true thing that makes killers lash out and complain about the balance are organized high skill deathsquads/high skill survivors. These people are usually good or very good players, perfectly perked and sometimes geared.
- These groups will usually have the skill/knowledge to abuse everything. (e.g. the best looper running object of obsession).
- These groups can make games look like taking candy from a baby and frustrate killers.
- Yet, you very rarely meet such groups, because to be brutally honest, about 95% of the high ranked survivor base are not nearly good enough. Statistically these are not relevant but they heavily influence killer's perceptions of balance.
3) The statistics clearly prove that they do not show balance but mostly lack of skill
- The statistics show that things which are harder to use are seemingly bad, when they are in fact far more powerful when in the right hands.
- example: nurse! There is no way in hell the nurse is worse than wraith or leatherface. Those two are dogshit killers. Her statistics are just bad because very few people can use her properly.
- vice versa: Freddy. he is mechanically very easy to play. His power does neither require finesse nor special skill/planning . Therefore he performs well
My conclusions:
- Just because something unerperforms statistically, it does not mean it is bad. (nurse!)
- We need a better rating system. Preferably one that makes ranking up as survivor considerably harder. This would seriously improve the quality of matches.
- The game will never ever be nor should ever be balanced for ultra high skill and for deaths squads. If you balance the game for ultra high skill survivors you would make it unfun for 95% of the community.
I usually tend to be a bit more killer sided. But to all people who often accuse killers of always wanting 4ks. No way man. The fun in the game is the tension, the thrill of the hunt. The frustation fo someone almost in your grasp escaping etc. Always 4k would bore me to death.
But on the other way around we have to see that it is an aysmetrical 1v4 horror, so no survivor should ever be able (no matter how good he is) to stall 75% of the game in one chase. Survivors should feel at a disadvantage when being chased. Is that not the point and fun of playing a horror survival game?
2 -
Clearly someone never played evolve that game was EXTREMELY well balanced and it was an asymetrical game. If I had a full team I never felt like I lost just because of balance as himterlike wise as monster I never felt like the hunters had to much going for them. Even when I lost.
Too bad their crappy consumer practices chased a lot of people away.
I like how you if ignore rts games, fighting games, literally any other game that balances towards their top tier. It's not just fps games that do this.
You ALWAYS balance towards the top end players because the bottom end will barely change no matter what you do unless you completely change fundamental mechanics the low end of the tier will barely fluctuate.
3 -
There is a difference and they said not to do either one.
I agree with your point about there not being a reason to release statistics if they are that flawed in the first place. All that does is mislead people.
1 -
Imagine thinking fake pallet freddy is unbalanced. Good riddance to this topic, You would have a better argument bringing up forever freddy.
2 -
You do realise that it takes Freddy 8 seconds to teleport to a gen? That's plenty of time for you to run, not to mention you see blood spewing off the generators. Also the cooldown for the teleporting is very long unless all survivors are asleep and if he's running those addons. Freddy is almost an m1 killer when you are awake. I get that it may take an extra 20 seconds to wake up but saying he's the most unbalanced killer is not true.
Only thing that needs changing about Freddy is his slowdown addons.
1 -
The real reason why statistics mean nothing is because:
- Most players are bad even on red ranks
- the only thing that matters is a full group of the best players playing as good as humans could vs a killer player that plays as well as a human could.
Then play multiple matches for each killer on each map (gotta get a big sample size because of random spawns etc.) and that in a lan environment because internet can [BAD WORD] up stuff too.
Also compare no items vs no addons and best items vs best addons.
I know this is pretty much impossible to do but the least you can do is take 5 very good players and you will see that the results wouldnt match the statistics at all. Its funny how people think beeing rank 1 makes you any good. You meet so many potatoes on rank 1 as well and that dosent even count that most players dont play seriously or the people who try to ruin your game on purpose or just dc (which includes people who are "skill wise" rank 1 players but choose to play lower ratings)
3 -
Yes, just like escaping is not a win for survivor; I can die and still pip which is a win. You just have to do enough for the team, and sometimes I might be one of the ones escaping.
0 -
Certainly, the gen times are both fast and slow at the same time. What needs to be done, imo, is make it longee but WAY more interactive. I do play both sides at red ranks, it isn't that fun sitting on gens and doing totems. This will make either group happy, as it will take longer to escape, but, it might actually be fun.
I would argue BBQ already has plenty of counters for the aura reading, would you rather encourage Killers to camp?
Why would you remove Legion, he's already getting nerfed again 😂.
Billy is supposed to have a ton of map pressure but mediocre chase potential. Junglw gyms prevent him from using his chainsaw at all. God fodbid he gets Lery's or Hawkins.
Fake pallets are fine, imo, Small Game counters them, actually. Plus, the snares are better. Most good Survivors will fall for them once, then just go to the windows.
I would like another game mode, whether it be competitive or a 2v8 like you suggested. However, that would split the playerbase and I certainly don't want to be playing Lobby Simulator 2019 BEFORE playing Doing Gen Simulator 2019.
0 -
Never played against a sweaty 4man genrush swf with trapper on r1 do ya?
0 -
I agree that if BHVR didn't intend people to use these statistics as evidence, they shouldn't have released them at all. However, I think you seriously underestimate the value of even the broadest statistics. These statistics still give us an accurate picture of what is happening across the game. It tells us two very important things:
-Every killer except the Nurse performs well at all ranks.
-Killers become more dominant at the red ranks, not less.
These facts contradict much of the community's perception of the game: That the game is survivor-sided overall, and that high-ranking Killers have little chance of winning against a team of skilled survivors.
So I don't see why we should disregard hard evidence like this. The ideal goal of a debate is to use facts, evidence and logic to find the truth of a topic. Why rely on opinions, anecdotal evidence and perception over a piece of hard statistical evidence like this?
0 -
Please play killer and try to get to red ranks so you can found out for yourself why this game is survivor sided im currently rank 1 survivor rank 4 killer just by your thoughts and ideas of balanced you either dont play killer at all or only play in the brown ranks where people dont do gens everyone is being civil but tbh you need to play killer ######### the stats go out there and find out for yourself
0 -
I don't think fake pallets need to be removed but I'd be happy if Windows of Opportunity didn't show them.
0
