BHVR, let us TEST kindred basekit
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Sorry, if OP can call straw man and then not answer my question, I can call this whataboutism. You’re talking base mechanics. I’m talking free aura reading every time someone’s on a hook. Extremely unbalanced equivalences.
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Maybe I'm talking about base mechanics because that's what the thread is about. You completely missed my point.
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I think basekit it will be too powerful and overbearing for killers. Lack of information is what helps killers by making this info base and for free it could become incredibly powerful and overbearing against Killers.
Kindred is good now, but I still see idiots who would rather self care at red ranks than get people off the hook. I watched a dwight self care while I was on hook after losing the killer while I had Kindred. I ended up getting irritated and purposely farmed him to death.
On the other hand I dont mind testing it.
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Vaulting pallets is crucial to the game.
Being able to heal other survivors is crucial to the game.
being able to recover from exhaustion is crucial to perks that use it to be able to function.
Please explain to me how the game or any part of it becomes unplayable if you don’t have Kindred.
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We really don't need base Kindred.
Kindred is very strong now for solo players. But even then, it's not necessary for good players. If you have a room full of good survivors they will know when to make saves.
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The point people are trying to make is that having Kindred basekit would help only solo survivors because swf on comms is pretty much Kindred no perk slot required. I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that Kindred does nothing for swf. This is where we disagree and obviously neither of us can convince the other.
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You haven’t made an argument though, all you’ve done is compared Kindred to vaulting pallets or healing other survivors. I gave two examples of where swf benefits from Kindred and you attempted to refute neither of them. So yeah, forgive me if my mind hasn’t changed.
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After this massive buff, Kindred is definitely on every single of my loadouts as a solo survivor. If you, as a solo survivor, think that it isn't worth a perk slot, then it's your loss period. Kindred is a base perk for everyone, meaning that you don't have to grind out a specific character to get it as a teachable so new players can get it right away and give them a lot of information.
I play solo survivor all the time and you can definitely afford to give up one of your meta perks for kindred. The information it gives us now is amazing and allows you to make decisions of whether or not you should continue working on a gen, or go for the save. That's the information I always wanted as a solo and now with this new buff, it's given to me. If you don't think it's worth a perk slot, your loss.
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Sure, just make the aura reading from BBQ or Bitter Murrmers base kit...sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?
Kindred is extremely good in its current state. You get mas situational awareness for each time a teammate is hooked with no downsides and no counters. All of that information is extremely strong. You can know, David's on the hook, Meg is doing a gen in this corner while Feng is doing a gen in this part of the map. The killer is headed to Feng, my gen is almost done. If I finish my gen, I can get the save and go towards Fengs gen and finish it since she's likely being chased. If Meg gets the save I can just finish my gen then go to Fengs while Meg returns to hers. Do you see the snowball effect of information? Kindred is really strong, perks are all about tradeoffs. You choose one and lose another, that's how you build.
Base kit should be purely about optimization and quality of life. Not mass information and situational awareness.
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Then what's the point of testing anything in the PTB if it's not a realistic scenario? How are you able to actually test anything?
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Wth? Kindred basekit? Thats waaay to strong, i can see if you ask for it at ranks 12-20 but below that kindred is one he'll of a perk, I run the new kindred and i can never get mins gamed at some places cause someone else is hooked, its like you must just not understand the game very well, but kindred is Strong , I see it getting a nerf soon, or hotfix W/E
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I play solo all the time and escape at least half the time, and when you say make the game fun for everyone by doing this i assume you mean besides the killer that will get stomped every game. As it is the wait to get in a lobby is anywhere from 5-15 minutes but keep buffing the survivors side while leaving the killers out will only make that worse. I used to be a killer main untill i got tired of being stomped by swf groups. Making the solo as strong will make the lobbies unbearably long because nobody wants to play on the side that's going to get smashes almost every round.
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new kindred is so broken and overpowered
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So, you are talking about killers getting "stomped" when the kill rate is 70%? Seriously? Getting stomped is exactly what happens to solo survivors now. But looks like it's only bad if it affects you, right, stomping solo survivors is ok?
Killers kill almost 3 survivors out of 4. Survivors escape rate is 30%, that means solo escape rate is around 25% or less.
You can say you escape 120% of all of your solo games, it's not about you, it's about the community in general. I'm personally fine if you don't use kindred or any other solo survivor buffs, but most solo survivors need it.
If you get stomped as killer and escape as solo survivor 2 times more often than other solo survivors, maybe playing killer os not for you, play survivor. Case closed.
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You are only looking at small picture stuff. I am not a game developer but I understand basic balancing. You can't make such a big change without changing a lot of other things... and yes it is a big change.
Kindred base kit buffs the survivor role as a WHOLE. You literally just pointed out the issue. Giving everyone Kindred base kit is giving everyone a 5th perk slot. That buffs the survivor ROLE.
This game was designed so survivors had limited information. If you want that information (kindred, bond, empathy, spine chill, small game, etc) you have to use a perk slot.
Asking for Kindred to be base kit so 'you don't waste a perk slot' is big deal. 4 survivors ×5 perks each. The killer is now going up against 4 people with 20 perks between them, one being one the best aura reading perks in the game.
Please, tell me, what do you think would need to be done to balance the game if Kindred became base kit?
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You don't get that Kindred has no impact on how the game is played for swf at all. Whether you have it on or not. So you're saying swf have 5 perk slots? Why not solo queue too?
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Do you people think about balance before throwing out ideas? Like you realize there are a lot of aspects to look at before any change can be made.
You think "it helps solo survivors." As other people said it also helps SWF's. That information is valuable period. You have the exact location of every survivor and the direction in which the killer is going. And those auras stay as long as the person is on the hook. It gives SWF's and solo survivors exact information. No more guessing, no more rough estimates. No more saying "I'm kinda close. Are you closer than me?" "Well I don't know where are you?" "I'm on the gen in the back corner back a tree." "Well I'm on the gen in the middle building." No, you know exactly where everyone is, what they're doing, when and where you should rotate next, where you shouldn't loop the killer, what pallet was just dropped and probably a handful that I haven't even named.
All of that information is valuable and takes away from the killer. If someone runs it as a perk at least I know they're paying a cost for that information. Base kit means all of it is free. That's entirely too much.
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okay swf are usually communicating via chat or voice chat anyways so them having kindred really doesn’t add THAT much, just so they can see where the random is. Since the update i’ve still been getting 4ks versus swf. it’s really not that game changing tbh.
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Oh this is another one of those ideas where BHVR, who hasn’t been able to balance the game in the 3 years that it’s been out, will buff solo players to match the game breaking strength of SWF, but then BHVR will magically just balance killers around that.
Mind you this is the same developer that took a year to rework one killer. Still has doodoo killers like Wraith and Clown and Plague. Can’t seem to find a way to balance Legion. They’re going to rework the entire meta of the game and it’s going to just work /ToddHoward
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Optimal swf groups won't have much of a benefit from that because optimal swf groups are already communicating every relevant information to each other. Kindred doesn't provide any more information than having voice coms, that's why you will NEVER see kindred used in a competent 4 men swf group on coms
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Reading through this forum I see two sides being argued.
- Base kit Kindred should be a non-issue since it is allowing solo survivors to have the same information as a swf who don't run Kindred at all.
- Kindred as base kit is a buff to the survivor role overall and essentially a 5th perk slot for all survivors, solo and swf.
Instead of making Kindred base kit, what would everyone think of making open coms for all survivors, and then balancing the killer role around that?
(Of course people would have the option to turn coms off because not everyone enjoys talking).
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Devs had spoiled the player.
- Remember the day only Kindred tier 3 works for all other survivor when you're on hook? (Requires 4/12 perks at tier 3)
- Months ago Kindred buffed to works for all other survivor when you're on hook at all tier (Requires 4/12 perks at any tier)
- Now Kindred gets another buffed to works for all other survivor when all survivor on hook. (Requires 1/12 perks at any tier)
- And people still want Kindred should be a basekit (No requiring)
If you ever realize current Kindred kills Trapper a little bit more with constantly 16m aura reading.
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It's a buff either way. And it makes it much easier to triangulate where to go next. If you like Kindred so much...just run Kindred.
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Let’s make Nurses or BBQ base kit on killers too
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If you can explain and give a good reason for nurses calling. About bbq, I already stated that I would like to have it basekit
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Because why not
Theres no good reason to make Kindred basekit
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Kindred's in a good state since the buff
Stop trying to ruin the mysteriousness of the game. Soon enough you'll ruin the entire tone of the game
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agree, even with kindred the ramdons dont save sometimes so kindred in base kit is not a problem if, trapper wasnt nerfed with this cause everyone will see him putting a trap down, maybe after 8 seconds youre hooked against a trapper character kindred activates, and in trapper chars we will need "when putting traps you receive the oblivious effect" juts to avoid kindred going on while you still putting the trap down.
This will guarantee at least one trap for the killer, and i guess its balanced (if he puts more traps down he will know that he is being watched.
Also this avoid a LOT Campers (some killers not) cause everyone will gen rush instead of risking saves and being killed, making not stonks to campers.
(OF course wraith, ghostface, pig will be able to camp but with some struggling)
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It isn't much to ask for, the problem is that swf don't need to give up a perk slot for the benefits that kindred would give a solo player.
Why are people scared to buff solo players to swf level? According to many in this forum, swf are fine.
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Kindred should be a perk given out to all level 1 survivors for free IMO
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Because it buffs swf as well, that's been my whole point. I run kindred when I'm in a swf because it's a fuckload quicker to spin my camera to see where everyone is than wait for everyone to say where they are and see if I need to be the one saving. If we're in Coal Tower and the killer's coming out of the tower basement and is heading towards one of the two remaining gens on the far side of the map, the basemented one can't tell us which of the two they're going towards, but Kindred can, which allows for heightened coordination.
It's a buff to ALL survivors if Kindred is basekit. It's an amazing perk and is deserving of its role as a perk. Take it or don't complain you don't get the benefits.
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Just give kindred to solo only and disable it from the basekit for swf.
Swf have info AND coordination. You would be giving info to solos and only when someone is on hook. Coordination would still be down to game sense, not comms. Swf already have the better kindred (discord), they don't need to be given the visuals ad well. Solo survivor escape is abysmal right now.
Bbq in basekit would be a good tradeoff. The problem is that Bubba is a licensed character that many beginners buy exactly for bbq, so bhvr may not want to give up those sells and they may have restrictions with their license as well. Maybe another perk might need to be chosen.
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yesssss PLEASEEE DEVS. WE BEG U!
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The problem isn’t a lack of information, people already tend to ignore the obsession mechanic, seeing as how I still die constantly because people are healing each other and the obsession is being chased.
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@Peanits, would it be in the question to consider kindred as base though, if it is favorable to the general majority?
Just wondering because i know some ideas are visionary while others are more favorable/realistic.
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Well, if you don't want to read my points I made then clearly "there is no reason" in your eyes.
I personally smell some heavy killer bias in you, your profile pic tells a lot ngl.
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Workaround: killers aura is blocked for the first 10 seconds after hooking someone
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Not really. The onky swf groups who benefit a lot from that are potatoes. But since they are potatoes, it's not a big deal. And even IF it would buff even the best swf groups (and it's a big IF), the buff will be very slightly compared to the buff solos get from that. Both scenarios allow to close the gap more, and both allow future buffs for killers. It's simple, but I feel like here is some heavy killer bias going on and some want to keep solos as ez wins.
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Will some unused killer perks get reworked next midpatch?
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A (balanced?) solution:
make the old kindred, but at tier 2, base kit for all survivors. This makes it so that when all survivors are alive, there is only a 1/3 chance that a given survivor knows where the other two unhooked are. However, everyone gets some information, AND it’s not game-changing, just helpful, especially for solo survivors. And of course this effect would be nullified by the blindness status effect.
Note: idk what difference it makes but I’m a survivor main (username checks out)
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You still haven't answered my question from yesterday, and you reinforced my belief in this response: what four perks do you believe to be so strong that it is 100% disadvantageous to trade one off for Kindred? I'm struggling to think of four perks that makes an automatic "EZ win" for killers if you remove even one of them, I really am.
Also, it's rather telling to me that you need to attack my character by calling me biased towards killers without proof of this, rather than actually work against my argument. In fact you supported it by saying that yes, even optimized SWF groups could benefit from it. It's an amazing perk, I cannot come up with four perks that are so strong you can't bear to swap one off for Kindred.
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My problem is how long is it going to take before Killers get back to accordingly.
If they're going to do it on a one by one basis then a lot of Killers are going to have a very irritating time dealing with new stronger solo survivors until their killer finally gets adjusted.
If it's going to be an in general buff event Killers are still going to have to deal with sole survivors were closer to the level of survive with Friends for a decent bit until they managed to figure out how to adjust Killers properly.
If you ship both the killer bath and baseline kindred at the same time you don't really get to test the impacts
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What about poor bubbas?
How are they supposed to use insedious now?
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Second objective is the key word. This buffs every killer at the same. Obviously, some killers need to get specific buffs, it's a process but it's the best imo.
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The demand for secondary objectives been there longer than the demand for kindred being baseline.
We had band aid secondary objectives
Killers-
Amanda: RNG based so not exactly reliable
Legion: I'm not opening this can of worms this isn't the thread for it but I have tons to say about this.
Debatably Plague and Freddy. However the former can be easily ignored and the latter need slow down for it to be a threat
Healing-
Once again largely ignorable and with the inclusion of more heal based perks it's becoming less of a pseudo secondary objectives each time
Bones
Either survivors do them or they don't it's probably the least reliable form of of secondary objectives especially if you don't have a hex perk. Also if they don't do it you'll often get an earful if you run no one escapes death and they lose because of baby.
The main reason why nurse hillbilly and spirit are so good with dealing with survive with friends is simply because they end the chase quickly.
Communication tends to balance out a lot of mistakes or misplays that would waste time but because these killers end the chase so quickly that lack of wasted time is often evened out by their chase lethality.
If give survivors the ability to co-ordinate more effectively which is what baseline kindred will do would have to increase the lethality of killers.
However then you run into a problem Killers like Amanda and
Legionwho have high stall potential will become very oppressive if they have both high stall potential and high chase lethality.Which is why I say it will take time to raise each killer up because you would have to stick to one attribute that killer excels in so they don't just become straight of oppressive.
This means whilst it's being worked out a lot of Killers are going to have to deal with stronger survivors with no compensation.
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But these are killer specific second objectives. I was thinking king about GLOBAL second objectives. For example: find fuel before being able to work on gens.
Or: find the switch and attach it to the exit gate to open them
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