Please BHVR, listen to killers more
There will always be more survivor players on asymmetrical survival games so it makes sense to listen to survivors more from a more business standpoint, but if killers continue getting ######### (I'm aware the ruin nerf is quite simple to remedy just by running surv aswell but this is just one extra thing in a long line of nerfs over time) more and more killers will stop playing or move over to being survivor mains. Yeah, survivors get nerfed but it's not as much as killers. Killers leaving/moving to survivor just means queue times will increase more and they can already not be great. There's just not much fun in killer anymore when killers are the ones who get shafted the most. God loops spawning next to each other, gens being quick to do, perk nerfs etc. You say it isn't fun for new survivors to play against killers like doctor and dealing with ruin, but what about new killers going against people who have dead hard and god loops, adrenalin etc.
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You are right with this: Too many killers leaving the game/switching to survivor leads to too long surv queue times, which leads to survs leaving the game/the death of the game.
The thing is: We aren't at this point yet. The total playercount is not decreasing.
Significant killer buffs would only happen when it became necessary for keeping/growing the total playercount, or more precisely the sales of DLCs and cosmetics.
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Are you...are you actually serious? Killers are so much stronger than they were two years ago, it's not even funny. The vast majority of balance changes since this game came out have been in favor of killers. While survivors might be stronger atm, it's not by much(the average survival rate is 40%, after all). And as someone who plays both sides, Hex:Ruin is objectively the most unfun perk in the game, both to use and go up against. Maybe stop with your victim mentality and learn how to play the game?
P.s. You should be happy the Doctor is finally getting looked at. He's been arguably the weakest killer since the Freddy buff. While his current state on the ptb is questionable (that 3 second cool down after shocking is unacceptable), he'll hopefully be adjusted before he goes live.
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tell me, where did you get that average? and also it doesn't matter for survival rate if the point of the game is to "pip up" and even if you "4k" you can de-pip as a killer.. you know the system is stuffed. and it is pretty hard for killer still. i personally have gotten rank 1 survivor within 4 days of rank reset every rank reset while for killer i only get down to rank 3, and then de-rank to 5 because i verse the equivilant of "Seal Team 6" every god damn match.
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my honest opinion on this subject
I personally think a lot of people are jumping the gun with the Ruin change and in-general the Killer player-count.
My builds used Ruin so often because of how effective it was, eventually because of this... 80% of my builds incorporated it... only some of my Killers like Legion, Spirit, Billy, and some others were spared from this, mainly because the builds I had for them didn't require Ruin AND I personally didn't want to use Ruin on them.
I haven't used Spirit since her road to P3-50 and for some dailies... and I haven't used Billy since probably mid-2019 I think? For dailies yeah, otherwise not so much in terms of one or two matches.
And Legion I have used a lot, even after his various nerfs and buffs.
here's the point though
I personally believe this change is for the better, since Ruin was so effective that most of my builds incorporated it... it really dried up the potential for any "builds" besides something like Ruin, BBQ, ???, and ??? depending on the Killer.
BBQ for points, and Ruin because it was effective and helpful for the mid/low tier Killers that needed it. But here's the thing, other perks that do this "less effectively" or the same exist, Corrupt Intervention exists, Huntresses Lullaby with 4-5 tokens exists, Devour Hope builds exists... there are options!
Yes Devour and Huntresses require a build up, but Hex perks were never meant to last more than 1 minute on average, Hex perks are just a gamble... if they last above a minute than the gamble paid off, if not, than the gamble failed for that match.
so why does this tie in with the "killers leaving the game" issue?
Because this wasn't a "big thing" until Ruin was announced for a change, so I feel people are just jumping the gun because of this change. If Killers honestly couldn't play without Ruin... than they were following a one-sided meta that had no variety.
But now... NOWS THE CHANCE FOR CHANGE! Now Killers can use more than 2 perks that're random, we're now able to expand and use 3 or 4!!! Many builds can be spawned from this, and long since dead niche builds can be revived once more!
Think about it, if the game was "dying", than wouldn't the player-count be drastically lower than the average? Wouldn't we be in the lowest point in DBD history with players? This game has the most consistent player counts for a multi-player horror game to date, and that's quite the accomplishment.
I think we're fine tbh, this always happens when a meta perk/power is nerf, changed, etc. The fires start to rise, but eventually only ashes will remain. In due time, people will accept this change... but the ones that can't will still remind us, so it's a double edged sword.
But hey, that's how it is for any meta changes, so this is to be expected.
Post edited by FireHazard on11 -
Funny that you said that killer should learn how to play the game when the patch notes basically caters to Survivors who are garbage that refuses to learn the game so the developers made it easier for them.
Statistics are joke even now that red ranks is flooded with dummies it's really apparent which side really needs to learn how to play the game.
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Ruin was the most annoying perk? It's usually gone within the first 5 minutes
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@FireHazard So when a perk is valid and therefore it gets used a lot, the perk should get nerfed so that players would be forced to use other perks - do we apply the same rule to survivor perks? Because I'm seeing the same perks all the time.
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I mean, they did it to DS and there was a big stink about it for weeks. That change was under the same concept I believe, that the perk was unfair to play against and a lot of people used it. (I could be wrong if that was their main reason to the nerf).
This is about the same, except Killers are now claiming the game will die because no Killers will exist after the change, which as a Killer main myself, I find that to be a funny response to the change itself. If this was to open up avenues for builds, than yes that would be their next goal.
I'm not entirely sure on why they changed Ruin, but I personally don't mind the change. If they did so with Survivor perks, than I also wouldn't mind. As for others, that's another story. (I play both sides, so that's why I said "I wouldn't mind", as despite being a Killer main... I do play both sides frequently, I just play Killer MORE)
But I do know this, a perk change doesn't mean the entire Killer population will suddenly die, which was the main point of the post. So, in my personal opinion, players are jumping the gun over it.
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@FireHazard Ruin gets nerfed. DS didn't get nerfed, it got changed. That's a big difference.
So back to my question: Ruin gets nerfed because everybody is running it - should the same apply to the meta survivor perks?
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There is nothing in the OP's post to get this upset about. They state facts, and nothing more.
Its so apparent that you main survivor, even though you claim to play both, because you cannot even fathom that the other side has any value at all. If you played both, you'd understand the precedent this PTB patch set forward. It was clear that no where is BHVR looking at Killer enjoyment, be it new Killer or old.
Go on thinking that survivors are not the power role in this game. Sure there are certain Killers and perk combos that even the playing field. But out of a dozen or more Killers how many are actually viable in the Red Ranks consistently?
And out of so much variety, why should Killer be forced to play 2 or 3 different Killers if they want to compete.
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It happens to them all and frequently.
Exhaustion was a huge change to all those perks. Remember old SB with a 20s cooldown.
Self care
MoM
DS has been changed 4 or 5 times now.
To name a few old and new.
Think about what the survivor meta was and how it's changed over the years.
Now I may not agree with the way they have changed Ruin but it does seem fitting if something is giving to much of an aid to either side then it needs looked at and adjusted.
For example BT is becoming meta and for the wrong reasons. While its a perk needed at times I'd say it should be looked at next. Maybe it should not activate for 20s to allow the killer to actually leave and stop the farming for example. If it doesn't activate all game then it will no longer work within the egc.
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No thats totally wrong in every aspect. Queue times are bad cause of the SWF-Change which brought in more survivors into high ranks from lowranks. also survivors get nerfed over time equally to killers: BT, DS, pallets, exhaustion, healing .. but you just want to ignore this. Killers are just too whiny. Being the powerrole just doesnt mean you have it easy, it means you have to get versed in game mechanics. Killers are just lazy.
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The introduction of exhaustion was absolutely necessary for any attempt at balance. When was that, btw? 2017?
MoM was an incredibly unbalanced perk and everybody knew it needed to get nerfed before the perk even went live. Some people say this perk was only created to sell Ash. Not a good example here.
DS has never been nerfed, only changed.
Which leaves us with SC which got nerfed a long time ago and which is not relevant for high rank gameplay.
I've been seeing the same survivor loadout of BT + DS + exhaustion perk of your choice + whatever since 2017/2018. So following the logic of the Ruin nerf, it would be time to nerf a lot of other perks as well to shake up the meta. 🤷♀️
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Saboteur
Selfcare
MoM
WGLF
All of those become a joke after a nerf at some point and you barely see them
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Of course it was and why it was done. The time frame doesn't matter as its all relevant. Exhaustion perks had a few changes to try and get it right.
Release was 20s cooldown which was changed to 30s. They added exhaustion as the perks could stack and the timer decreased while running. It was then changed it so that no longer happened and only when walking.
That's the point we know the impact these had on gameplay along with the others. The thing is the devs look at balancing the game and while many complained about these changes they did make the game better and make survivors adapt.
People still use these perks of course but with the likes of head-on more are using Q&Q. It's not a true exhaustion like the others as it doesn't help in a chase but more of a meme perk.
DS has always been used by some but i am seeing it a lot less on solo players but it has of course it has been nerfed that is an undeniable fact. A nerf is a change but It's a far cry from being what it originally was usable for everyone anytime they wish with no outplay for the killer.
Every perk I mentioned that has been part of the meta has went through changes from what the original release of them making them weaker. Can you say the same about Ruin until now?
You can't change the mindset of players but you can make it so the other side has a better way counter to something which is overused.
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It's not so much listening to killers, it's nerfing killers to where they are irritating to play.
When they announced Nurses "add on rework" the whole community agreed. What did the devs do? Lie to us and nerf her base kit and give her ######### add ons.
They announced changing a few things for Spirit. What did the devs do? They kept their word, but took away her base kit post phase movement speed, and shadow nerf her sounds which made her more irritating to play as.
Doctor, can literally stop survivors from dropping pallets or vaulting after shocking them, but the devs gave him a 3 second cooldown until he can attack after shocking.
I get your point, but the problem just isn't the devs not listening to killers, it's simply the devs are making killers more annoying to play
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@twistedmonkey Nerfs to survivor meta perks? "It happen to them all and frequently." Same meta since 2017. "The time frame doesn't matter."
Also claiming that today's DS is weaker than the old DS and solo players are using DS a lot less... look around, DS is everywhere.
I don't feel like it makes sense to continue with this discussion. No hard feelings, see you around!
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They have changed multiple times over the years not just once. The time frame doesn't matter as they are now more balanced. That's the thing with meta perks its not about them being used but also about the impact on the game itself.
Of course DS is weaker. Originally it could be used by anyone on pickup and never had the timer. I have to question if you actually knew how the original DS was upon its release. The only way to try and counter to the changed DS previous to this was juggling the survivor which meant time wasted along with more chances for body blocks or flashlight saves.
This new one is a far cry from the old ones but that's not to say it isn't still strong and is in a good place with how it is.
Yes I see DS in a lot of games but not everyone like people claim it to be. I see it maybe on one survivor in most matches and see players running unbreakable more nowadays. The simple fact of having one obsession makes killer slug more to counter it.
Unbreakable was never meta but now it seems to be becoming it.
Spine chill and Resilience were also hardly seen but are seeing a surge in usage.
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So you mean a swf actually has to learn game mechanics? Huh... I thought that's what the comms were for, but I'm sure you consider comms fair in a 4 v 1 anyway. Plus what nerf to bt are you referring to since it has infinite uses... lol. Healing, really? Cleanse a totem and go in a locker for 8 seconds... If your going to say something is wrong and provide examples try to stick to ones that actually hold water. And survivors whine just as much, lol. It's the same on both ends.
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That's the thing juggling only worked via solo queuers as any competent SWF would be able to easily counter it so the killer wouldn't get the hook and be forced to chase the other player. It only truly worked when they were doing it to the last one alive.
While those perks helped they were all just a soft counter which didn't do much and why It was always complained about almost every day on the forums.
That's what I mean by the change. Before from my experience it was very uncommon to not see 3 or 4. The meta is shifting to perks which help more it gens or slugging than from being picked as the change has made killers think about picking up anyone if they see an obsession.
I think the reason for this is how often DS does get activated now. I personally see it activate a lot less in games even if it's there and so it becomes a dead perk not worth running such a the mindset is I won't be picked up after a hook anyway.
If you look at the perks used in the past to now some are obviously still used but there are a lot more in rotation than there has ever been.
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They hear us. A LOT. Remember balanced landing? Hilariously op. Now smacked,nerfed. How about ds. Op triple sss tier. Now,an anti tunneling perk. You see where I'm going with this?
They do hear,us,the killer mains. Last patchnotes if you remember correctly was killer sided,the balanced landing changes and the undetectable status effect. So yes,they do hear us a lot more than you think
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Generators get done in 4-5 minutes? That's not looking good for you as a killer. Personally I saw sometimes 2 DS users and you know? I don't care, I don't tunnel, let's say the "a whole inmunity minute" is a true fact as many claims. There are 3 survivors more, if you, knowing that fact, still refuse to leave that single DS survivor, then you deserve that DS hit. Personally I found myself that due to the map size, a minute is easier to avoid if you're not tunneling.
As a killer you need to know when it's good to "loss a chase", think about the killer's shack, it's a well known infinite, a survivor is there and you spend 5 mins only to give him a hit and 2 or 3 gens pop up at that time. Would be rasonable for you to come here complaining about gen speed? I understand, the map design is bad at the moment but that's not the point. If you refuse to leave that single survivor who just run into that infinite then it's your fault if every generator gets done, the survivor didn't force you to stay there, you decided it.
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I've been running DS three years now. The nerf did absolutely nothing to it's power or how often it is used. DS is now actually stronger in certain situations. It serves as anti tunneling perk but i know how to use it's power to maximum potential offensively
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If any of this changes are huge nerfs then I think Adrenaline should give 3 seconds of Sprint instead of 5 because that's the only thing wrong with it. Or No one Left Behind insanely OP just take away the BP bonus and boost the action speed.
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are there actually any threads on this forun not dedicated to whining and crying allnday long?
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I bought 2 dlc of killers and I regret not having bought a train simulator with that money
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Thing is, Ruin was most commonly used on lower tier killers as they needed the little bit of extra time because of how the gens can fly, as said killers simply cannot apply pressure as well as they need to, so Ruin was a band-aid.
BHVR decided to remove the band-aid before addressing the wound, and turned ruin into a perk that really mainly benefits the killers that didn't need ruin in the first place.
So, while this may give more perk flexibility, it'll likely hurt KILLER flexibility, as now slower killers like Clown, Trapper, Hag, and so on lost their one tool to slow the gens down a bit.
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Many Trapper and Hag players made the switch to CI a long time ago; it buys some serious setup time and narrows down the search radius, so I really do believe this change is more likely to hurt those that relied on a zero interaction perk to do the work for them than those that always tried to adapt.
Ruin most certainly was a band-aid, though. I do agree on that. But I do see good players of even M1 killers getting some great use out of it...assuming it survives their setup time. Which is an issue with hex perks that I really think just need the rules for activation/deactivation changing tbh.
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Or they could listen to both sides equally rather than pandering to one side over the other
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They need to address map sizes and maybe consider giving survivors something to other than gens (just holding a button down is boooooring) and definitely even up the killers too. In my opinion every killer should be viable in some way on all ranks. Trapper in red ranks should play different but be just as deadly as Nurse for example.
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Honesty, it's my opinion that the issue is right now balance is impossible.
Solo Survivor < Random SWF/lowtier/newer player killers < good killers < SWF team 6.
They really need to learn you sometimes have to kill your darlings. Give all survivors coms, bringing solo up to par with SWF, then buff killers who can't deal with coordinated survivors up to where they can, balance out gens with coordinated teams, and then from there balance is far easier to work on, as currently the rift between randoms and swf coordinating is so massive it's not even funny.
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They won't listen to us, because we're outnumbered by people who don't want a challenge and want the game to be so easy, potatoes can survive... The game is dying, whether people wanna admit it or not. A lot of OG killers are tired of all the BS that goes on, tired and bored of the SAME ######### over and over, and getting punished by nerfing them to death because potatoes can't win every match. Swf's has been a huge issue, and with everything else piling up on top of that, killers are just giving up and moving on, or playing survivor only. Once the ruin patch goes live, trust me, you will definitely see.
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I think it would be neat to give these stats base(base to people that use the totem), if the totem is destroyed. I haven't personally gotten to use it on PTB, but I can see the stats and effects in question being limited.
I've even thought that once destroyed, "ruin"ing one person game in some manner would be neat. A lottery of who it happens to and a number of negative effects it could be. It may even go to an already dead survivor. You never know.
I'm a survivor main and just think it would be an interesting counterplay. You break it you buy it. It could even turn into noed, if left untouched. Assuming you're running noed. Forcing people to look for it or risk it.
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If the match-making wasn't pairing them with higher ranked Survivors, than they wouldn't have an issue when it comes to gens flying...
As it would pair them with Survivors or Killers that're equally in-experienced, so the issue wouldn't be as bad for the low ranks.
I've also argued before the Corrupt Intervention can be equal or better than Ruin, other Hex's like Devour Hope (surprising I know), and Huntresses Lullaby with 4-5 tokens are as strong or stronger than Ruin in some regards.
Yes, these Hex's require set-up time UNLIKE Ruin which doesn't, but a Hex perk isn't supposed to last more than a minute, it's a gamble, if the gamble pays off that that's good for the Killer... if not, than they try next game to see if it'll work this time.
Corrupt Intervention doesn't have this issue though, so that's why it's considered equal or better than Ruin. You can still have a set-up time with Trapper using Corrupt, or Hag with Corrupt, or even Clown with the proper perks that can lessen the map pressure issue.
But I do agree that the lower-tiered Killers do need a sort of buff to help them out with some of their own personal issues, but one issue at a time...
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Problem is, Ruin was the band-aid for the core issue, but instead of addressing the issue and then removing the band-aid, they instead let the wound fester and then removed the band-aid.
They seem fond of that in fact. Just tossing Band-Aids on every issue via perks and instead of addressing the core issues, they just let it fester then remove the band-aid later. Sometimes.
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Yes, this was already said above...
The point I was trying to make though is that other options exist that're equal or better in some regards. The gen rushing issue really depends on the Killers skill alone and just how the game is structured to go through generators.
We'll see how they handle this in the coming days of the 3.5.0 release, but I personally feel that everyone is freaking out over nothing, which happens when any meta perk is nerfed.
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Give the Huntress normal movement speed. No, she wont be op with it.
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I do want to say though, since Dead Hard has the survivor meta changed? Yes and no. But if we have a nerfed ruin, then what’s going to even the odds? Killers can still be rushed and either way no one likes a slug meta, it’s boring and I know this too well.
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We'll see what happens, 3.5.0 isn't LIVE yet, and a lot has been said since the PTB and before the PTB was announced (when the announcement was made for that change).
Just because Ruin was changed, doesn't mean other Survivor perks need to be changed in response... this isn't a bargain, perks get changed and that's that, whether others want different perks also changed in response is not up to them, its up to the devs.
We can of course voice these opinions in a civil manner and see where it goes.
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Hi all,
Old killer main here from when the game was about 9 months old. In my time of playing I have seen the following:
- Devs denied the existence of infinite loops ( until youtube videos started croping up).
- Denied that killers needed a mechanic to end chases for like a year ( they had to after streamers were showing the math)
- they implemented game mechanics without proper testing (insta flashlights and DS and original BT combo)
- they nerfed original freddy after only 1 week to the point he was a meme. Never refunded people who bought the DLC due to steams return policy.
- They had 2 times a community wide killer strike that both times lasted over a week forcing survivors to play killer. ( 1hr+ queue times)
- The second one was when Matt told people if they dont like what they are doing they can go play Civ 6. Resulting in the second dark times. (again resulting in queue time close to an hr)
- 5+6 Tanked player base that took months to recover from.
- Things killers would like fixed take YEARS to address. Where as survivors get one sided fixes in as little as a week. aka no solution to SWF Power roll, no addressing 3-5 min games. 2 yrs for a end game collapse ect ect ect. I do not trust the devs at this point. they dont act quickly enough on game issues for both groups and as a result it hurts the game. They focus on low level 80-200hr players but not about the ranks. There are no hard decisions or penalties to survivors. Side note the only reason the flashlights were nerfed was bc Matt was in a live stream and got bullied by a team of survivors for idk how long like 30 min or something.
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I dop agree with what you say the core issue is, but comms in an already intensely toxic game could be more negative, although I could very well be wrong with that one.
It's definitely an idea that I hope the devs at least consider.
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Heck, even a system akin to Identity V, with pre-made pings that give info and point you in the direction of who said it. And certainly show other survivors perks too.
It's just coms would likely be easier to implement, and would let them focus more on the balancing half. And of course, would have a mute system, just in case
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I used to be a killer main. It's become so stressful and difficult now that I've moved over to survivor main. I went on last night with my mate and we were killing and chilling and I've got to say it wasn't fun at all. Since rank reset and me not playing killer for a few months I'm now rank 14 and I was matched with rank 5s. Horrible timss
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