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I need to say this... Gens are not the problem...
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Champ, generator speed are the problem along with essentially everything else you said. Your average killer is going to want to play more than 5 minutes. Too many killers need time to play the match out.
Maps designed for degenerates. Survivor utilizes it better than a degenerate. Survivor is almost impossible to hit. Killer goes for another survivor but four survivors. Therefore, this is pressuring with a killer not spirit, hillbilly.
Trapper wants to set up traps, not chase degenerates around until he has. Legion wants to hit as many times as he can, not run around with ". Wraith wants to scare, clown wants to outsmart, huntress wants to snipe, and more.
As far as i've experienced and seen, working on a generator or totem %70 of the time is not interactive with the killer. BHVR reworks killers to be more AI difficulty (limited powers) and allow the survivor to interact and get chased without dying. But this is their perspective. They are the same " designing the maps.
SUMMARY: Increase match time in general. Allow more time to chase and get chased. Casuals and tryhards are content.
CHANGE IDEAS: Remove unnecessary killer limitations to fit the idea of longer matches. Remove memento mori; it is only for last hook, and innate decorative ability. Remove keys but hatch not my concern for now. Increase hook sequences: Three to 5; Increase generators or add a time limit: Seven generators or 10 minute limit.
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Chases will have to be longer to compensate for longer gen times. Therefore maps will need more god loops. Therefore gen times do not determine match time.
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The maps already have enough god loops that shouldn't be there. I think you did not understand what i meant. My idea is to increase the amount of fun that can be gained in one match, for both gamers. Survivor gets to be chased more and therefore more interaction with teammates and killer; killer chases the survivor and uses power more. Survivor has 5 hooks instead of 3, because of the longer match time.
If you look at it like survivor can not win because longer gen times, yet they have more hooks, and more interaction between teammates and killer, you will never be content. The main idea will not affect the veteran players. Of course, this doesn't matter because matchmaking is not working as it should.
Game will depend on skill once loops are perfect and balanced. Therefore chase time depends on the player.
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I think your idea would be great for an alternate mode with 8 gens needed and 5 hooks to kill a survivor. Right now the game is fast paced though.
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Yes, that is good thinking. An alternate mode for newcomers, perhaps. But this alternate mode is made for everybody. When game has 40k active players, devs could afford splitting the population in half.
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And another player drinking the "it's not my fault" koolade.
It's the player,every time. All the time. Not maps, loops, perks, survivors, gens, dedicated servers, pip or anything else. It's your gaming abilities.
Big maps? Killers move faster and start sooner than survivors, they see all the generators. They have all kinds of perks to slow the game down and track survivors. Try using them. If I ran around using the 5 meta perks, I too would struggle to "win" games. Adapt your strategy, instead of following the meta it the builds of your YouTube/twitch shepherd.
Personally, I choose gen pressure perks until I see SWF with 4 toolboxes/full loadouts then I go into poss off survivor perks.
Stop crying about things that don't need looking at. Learn to play better. Instead of repeating the same old ######### over and over.
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I'm curious bout the DC matches. If I get stomped with 4 survivors tagging at the exit gates... If I DC, does it count?
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I beg to differ.
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I don't need to read a word but the first sentence to agree. Pips and maps are the problem. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY THE FUN IS THE PROBLEM. WHERE IS THE FUN BEHAVIOR? It honestly makes me cry to see something I used to love so much when it came out to turn into such a toxic game all over the pip. It hurts me so much. I just want FUN. FUN. FUN. FUN. FUN. FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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This is nearly as fast as possible to get 2 people down on a killer without an instant down and ~3 gens where done even with 2 slowdown perks...
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What you ignore happily is the fact that the ranking system is flawed, it does not tell you whether a player is good or bad. This is the reason why solo q as survivor feels horrible because of bad teammates, "boosted" potatoes. There is only a higher chance to actually meet skilled opponents in red ranks but it has no meaning whether the opponent is actually good or not.
Going on from that it is partially a reason as to why so many people believe they are at the top of the game and we have so strange balance ideas, when they really are not on the top of the game by a longshot. This should explain to you why the stats are not that meaningfull.
Also you did not consider definitions within the stats. What is a red rank match? According to bhvr a red rank killer, at the start of the match, versus 4 green rank survivors is a red rank match. There is so much wrong that it is needed to adjust, ranking in the first place and gather data from there. Right now it is meaningless.
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I'm not sure what you are saying here but its my fault. My bad for not clarifying my post. My argument is that gen times are without a doubt a problem to be discussed, moreso than map size infact. Map size is an issue dont get me wrong but yes, this is pretty much the fastest you can find and down someone without instant downs and yet even with a slight debuff to gen speeds, three got done immediately. I wanted to put this in the discussion because I am worried that the speed of gens getting done will get neglected and that should not happen. There are a whole mess of issues to be resolved, and youve listed them yourself but again, my argument is that the problem with gen speeds should not be dismissed for those other issues.
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Yeah, that's gonna make for a sick analysis vid, especially when I get around to actually delving into the depths of why the games balance has staled and remained extremely poor after 3 years.
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I was agreeing with gen speed being to fast as I was saying this more or less:
If 2 Fast back to back survivor downs in the first min or 2 of the game still results in ~3 gens popping then something is wrong with the generator speed in the game.
Edit: This is let alone with thanatohpobia getting 2 stacks due to it slowing down the gen completion.
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Ahh I hear ya. Late night for me lol. It is wild. The cherry on top is only one of them used a toolbox.
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That's exactly what most of us is saying!!! And we are saying the data for helping pointing in the right direction of were the real balance problem lies is worthless because it is gathered from an unbalanced source (the games itself). You can't put a top division top team playing against a college team and say the field they played in doesn't matter at all because the top division team massacred the college team both times! The game itself would be so unbalanced that you can't draw that conclusion. No one said that the stats they have are completly wortless, no one said they didn't know what they are doing in terms of balancing.
Everyone knows something need to be done and it will always be necessary to keep balancing the game. What we are saying (probably in words that seems you don't like) is that the stats can be a great source of information in, at least, pointing in the right direction to check were the real unbalance problems lies and guess what, the game might not even need balancing!!! Yes, I said it! We don't really know because, in my case, I keep piping most of my matches because most of my matches are against low rank killers and keep struggling to keep pip against my own rank killers let alone pip when playing against them. We just don't know because the matchmaking and piping system is flawed and so the data that comes from those matches results can't really help.
You can't nerf, lets say, Bubba because he gets 4k 80% of the time (is just an example). But how many of those times there were red rank killers playing against rank 10 survivors that started playing 1 or 2 weeks ago? Fortunatly, the devs use the data in a correct way by only using it to point on the right direction and then try and figure out, by other means, what is really happening there but if they had a reliable source of information by considering only matches were all players are the same rank (that actually they might have a filter for that) it would point them in the right direction more often. But even with a filter for that, if matchmaking system were less flawed, the data collected for it would be greater. The reallity is that no one knows what really happens behind the courtains and how they filter data. But we all know that the reliable data (data that can be used to point in the right direction of balancing the game) is a lot less than what it could be thus making lots of data being irrelevant for game balancing despite the fact that they might filter that data or not.
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Hide behind trees and rocks. No single pallet needed to survive.
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I hope it helps. Ive played alootttt of killer games. I've had quick wins and quick losses at high ranks, part of the game. This game on my vid was a first. I main doc so I'm used to the long, control-style game. I was blind sided when those gens popped on arguably my fastest down ever on a non one-shot killer.
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Yeah, watching it was wild. It seems my returning impressions weren't wrong about the core imbalances remaining the exact same. Lemme hop over and toss you a fat follow on the twitcheroni because that was some wild speed
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If the killer is camping, unless all three of the others are simultaneously (erroneously) trying to rescue that single survivor, then there should be no issue working gens, since the killer isn't pressuring you at all. Ambushing unwitting survivors or 'camping' as you call it, by using a hooked survivor as bait is a valid play. That's why perks like insidious, and killers like Ghostface, Pig, and Wraith even exist. They're ambush killers. Even Spirit and Nurse can be used to long distance ambush. If your team isn't wise enough to keep at least one person working gens while one or two more go for a rescue, then it's not the Killers fault, and they shouldn't be punished for it. As to maps, while many are seemingly too large in scale, the reality is that each killer should ideally have a way to traverse maps quickly enough, while using their unique skill sets to keep pressure up. Killer reworks are a definite must in some cases, but gen times being slowed down isn't really the answer, not wholely, anyway.
Interactions with items and perks that affect gen times needs to be addressed, such as tool boxes stacking with certain perks, as an example. In my opinion, gen times should be reflective of how many are working on them. Whatever the time is for a solo Survivor to repair a gen on their own, un-added, should be exponentially reflected based upon how many survivors are working a a gen at current. I also think that gen repair perks shouldn't stack with tool boxes save for with special conditions.
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I know. That's what i said
I don't have an issue with camping. I know ot's a valid strategy. Mostly because it has a counter. I just don't want that counter weakened
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Maps are a huge issue and would fix a lot of Killer issues.
Especially with certain tiles like The Ironworks of Misery (appropriately named) window, Haddonfield as a whole, the Preschool Window, Autohaven Workshop loop, the Entire center of Crotus Penn, etc etc.
A competent survivor can abuse loops like those with little risk. If a killer chases a survivor and that Survivor wastes a minute and a half of their time, even if the killer downs them, thats only a single hook while Survivors were on gens without worry.
I don't know who designs the maps for DbD but they desperately need a stern talking to.
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Oyy thanks, that's means a lot man.
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Giant maps are not only an balance issue,t they are also unfun, imagine yourself playing Huntress and having to walk to pressure only one gen on asylum, like, I want to play DBD, not walking simulator. Maps are the issue not only cuz they are big, also cuz some god loops that are unmindgameble; even as survivor I know Asylum is complete BS
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The Issue with Hawkins is no one is taking the time to learn it. Killer's have an easier time because any time a survivor get's chased they run like a chicken that just lost their head, instead of towards the good loops, and the map has some really strong loops.
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I'm sure it does bud.
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Camping has several counters, and gen times aren't one of them. The only reasonable way to make Ruin decent again would be to lengthen gen times. The only way to deal with tool box/perk stacks on multiple survivors is to lengthen gen times. Slowing survivors down is the main vehicle by which a killer drives pressure. Currently, there are too many ways to speed up gen times, and not enough ways to effectively slow them down for all survivors vs single or only a couple.
Discordance used to be a great way to do it, but with six different tool boxes, a plethora of easily obtained add-ons, and multiple stacking perks by which survivors can further buff said boxes, affecting gen times the only reasonable solution, sand deleting/reducing tool boxes and removing stacking from perks like Leader and Prove Thyself.
Honestly, there is zero need for a saboteur set and a repair set for the tool boxes. One of each rarity, or change them so that saboteur boxes cannot repair, and repair boxes cannot sabotage. But that still doesn't negate the excessive amount of add-ons specifically designed to speed up tool box effects. Some of those need to be gotten rid of, as well. When a single survivor can finish a gen in as much time as 3 without boxes/perks, that's too damned fast and REQUIRES something to change.
It's part of the reason I play Wraith main. He's one of the only Killers that has a reliable means to detect and throttle gen progress effectively. I would suggest that you play him until you get some of his pink sight-while-cloaked add-ons and just watch the difference between a low rank team and a high rank team in terms of repair speed. Then you'll very likely understand what it is those of us asking for lengthened gen times are talking about.
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haha that's me. It barely comes up so I've never really had a chance to learn it.
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I also used to think big maps were the issue with gens, but experiencing scenarios like this, playing as both survivor and killer (1800 hours of play), in small maps made me realize gen speed is indeed a problem that shouldn't be dismissed.
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Without a doubt. Its very important to me that the speed of gens being done being an issue isnt buried under all of the other issues that need addressing as well. Otherwise we will just keep getting bandaid solutions back to back.
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I'm sure you're ready to show us all how killers can't apply enough pressure on small maps.
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I agree that maps are the main problem with the game. Loops without any mind-game potential (which is the skill factor of this game) or are borderline infinites with the addition to large maps which punish low mobility killers need to be looked at.
At the same time, gen speed should be looked at. Perhaps, the more generators are up, the longer they take? That way it avoids 3 generators popping before the first down?
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If you are fine with what you saw on that video I honestly don't know what to tell you; two survivors were camped to death on first hook, so I'm guessing that you either have fun being camped to death on first hook or have fun camping survivors to death on first hook. I don't and I don't think having to resort to this strategy so early in game is fun or healthy for most players, specially considering how much complaints about camping there are.
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Either that or the maps need to be made bigger, bring in more survivors and an extra killer possibly. Halve the perks and slow the game down so it's a true horror experience rather than Mario Cart between gens lol. Maybe that's just me, but I would love for this game to go to a more sinister and horror based theme than four people charging up gens while one person either camps, tunnels or cluelessly tries to stop two generators while three are in the process of being worked on.
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Ahm, first, this video was useless to make, just check game statistics, a single gen, being done by a single person takes 80 seconds, no need testing it... 3 gens can be done in 1.5 minutes if 3 survivors spawned at different gens. This is one of the problems of this community, most people don't even know the basics...
Now... 2 gens in under 2 minutes... The 3rd wasn't done so doesn't count... 4k'd... No CI... You're telling me you want the 4k without gens getting done with that build...? Man... Stop...
Just use logic...
3 men on gens, 1 on a chase, it takes 80 seconds per gen when 1 man is doing it, if every one of them was doing a different one you're getting 3 gens in 1.5 minutes, IT'S OBVIOUS... but this... THIS IS NOT COMMON! it's common to see 3 guys working on the same gen, making you easy hit them all, make them waste time to do so, not completting the gens and even if the 1st one gets done they need to find another gen (more time as they seek for another one) cause ANY competent survivors know NOT to do the gen next to the one you did, THAT'S WHY he got a 4k at the end...
WANT MY OPINION?
He took the choice of not bringing in CI (not gonna mention Ruin cause it's getting nerfed) if he actually wanted to "slow down" gens being done, the survivors spawned separated from each other (we know that practically NEVER happens) being able to do 1 gen per person, finishing 2 in 1.5 minutes and almost a 3rd, they made mistakes by not checking which gens were being done and that's why he ended up with a 4k AND COMPLAINED ABOUT GEN TIMES... with Spirit...
Show me a game with a good player playing Spirit (I'm not saying you're not one or the man in the video), using CI, Ruin or Thanato, it can be in the same map if you want to, but have in mind we all know that's a hard map for killers (quoting stats), against men doing the same gen together and knowing how to pick gens to do... YES, they'll take more time to do gens, but I can assure you it will not be an easy 4k like in this game...
If you could actually NOT CARE for gens being done in the early game, and assure yourself a pip by any means if you get a 3k or 4k, we woudnt' be talking about the "it took 1.5 mins" to do 2-3 gens, you'd be more worried in getting the kills, more than in the time gens get done...
Post edited by Carlosylu on0 -
I appreciate the thoroughness of your point. I want to thank you for sharing it with me, so lets talk about it.
When it comes to showing this video in particular, it was very important to showcase the absurdity of gen times not only by themselves but with a perfect set of events. Instant find ( which was based off of a successful GUESS) I didn't get looped or have a pallet dropped, and I downed the survivor as close to as fast as possible. Bear in mind that this was only possible because I played spirit. Most killers will not be able to do this at all, let alone consistent enough to be considered the standard for killers. With this being a best case scenario for killers period and the clean down, 3 ( yes three) gens were essentially done in that time without toolboxes. The reason I am counting that third one is because of the pegs. Regression without new ruin is terrible and a problem to talk about in a different conversation so once a gen gets to 96+ percent for simplicity sake it is very fine to count that as a completed gen as the main point isnt that they only have to do 2 gens at 2 mins into the game-- its that it takes a short time to get from 0 to 100.
You mentioned that it is not common for survivors to spawn on gens and go to each one and I would say that is up for speculation and the argument against you would be that at higher ranks, there likelyhood that survivors knowing that going to individual generators is the optimal way to attack them. However, I will concede that even at higher levels of play, survivors spawn in the same area AND choose to double up on the 2 nearest gens or worse. This said, the point isnt that they spawn separately and do gens, the point is that individually at any point in the game survivors by themselves can do one gen extremely fast. Multiply that 3 times and boo, multiple gens are being attacked this way. I wanted to point out that its possible even against a spirit who had a perfect start. I want to reiterate that against killers who don't have excellent chasing tools to get the 2nd hit quickly again, they have to spend even more time chasing that survivor which means more time for survivors to work on gens that take a short time to complete. I havent even brought up loops, strong pallets or map size yet.
I want to address this quickly as its not the point I was making, but the 4k doesnt matter so much for 2 main reasons: It doesnt determine if I pip or not like it used to and that 4k only happened because one survivor made a terrible mistake, and it could be argued that the other made a looping mistake. Which means if survivors didnt make the mistakes shown ( which is very common at high levels of play) then I would not even have gotten those double basement hooks in the first place AND the gens would still have been completed.
I want to also address the choice to not take CI shortly as well as this is an entirely new convo in itself. The perk is mediocre at best and Ill tell you why. The perk essentially makes the most important gens the only gens to be available to be worked on. Ill admit a bit of bias in this one and say that I am a Doctor main. My main strategy was developed due to years of playing him and that strategy is to assign "weight" to each gen. The further away from center of the map a generator is, the lighter weight it holds. I am willing to sacrifice a far off gen because I do not want to end up in a situation where survivors need 1 gen left and 1 of the 3 remaining gens to be worked on is on the other side of the map. That means the central area is a very important place for not only me but the survivors too if they want to win. CI essentially makes it to where survivors will attack the most important gens first and as I get looped and chase after the first hit, other survivors are working on those core gens because they have no other choice. Even if i were (and I do when the time is right) peel away and go after antoher survivor, that still leaves 2 survivors free to do the other gens left available by CI. By the time the perk dies survivors have created a prioity to finish those ideal gens at the fast rate that they naturally do them. Using CI post ruin change is a weak band-aid to address this issue and I predict it will not be the answer to this new meta. I actually predict new ruin will still remain the best possible way to slow down gens but only with certain killers and Doc being one of them :)
The final thing I wanted to address what you would like to see as in the video I did use thanato and nothing came of it. It should really be noted that if we are talking stats and empirical evidence, it has long since been proven that thanato does a terrible job at hindering gen speeds. The core reason I personally use it is that it stacks well with sloppy to slow down HEAL times. Thanato is terrible at slowing down gens. That said, you wanted to see a game with spirit using it and that video did just that. The point of that video is that no killer player would do anything different when it comes to handling that first survivor and then going after the second and because of that, 3 gens got done. There was no room for speculation or doubt when it came to the speed there as it all went down in under 2 mins.
So a final iteration: The point I personally wanted to make is that anytime in any place, gens can be done extremely quickly without toolboxes, without the first survivor doing any looping ( which is very common), without any pallets being dropped (common), and with the second survivor getting peeled off the generator. Imagine the standard events of a chase and the claudette not getting picked up. Imagine it NOT being spirit. Thats a rough set of circumstances man. The 4k wasnt relevant here because you are absolutely right, the goal is to win. Getting 4k doesnt guarantee that anymore as it currently stands. It however, almost sounds like you think the 4k does that though and I would ask if you could clarify if thats what you mean.
Sorry for the wall but you gave me a lot to go over and I appreciate that. I feel like I may have missed something so I hope you continue to respond.
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Damn that was long to read!
My point is merely that pipping sistem and ranking are a priority, if we could focus on getting the 3k+ instead of "not letting survivors do gens early game" as one of our objectives to pip then we would have a way more fun game absed in being a killer, not a sabotager.
About the gen's speed, I don't know about you, I'm a red rank in both survivor and killer and as survivor I practically ALWAYS spawn with my teammates and I don't work on different gens, we do the same one, better experience as a SWF, gives the killer a chance, bla bla bla. And as killer, I always find everyone together in a single gen (I run discordance), it's practically 1/10 games where more than 1 gen gets done in my early game, I don't know if it's my platform (xbox), rank (red) or luck, but this is the most common thing I find: 2+ survivors on a single gen, I hit one, hit the other, down him, hook, repeat. There are specific maps like rottenfields and the new Yamaoka that actually give me a challenge as a trapper and GF main.
I have a question: don't you think that the fact that not letting gens get done in early game is one of our killer's objectives is affecting our percepetion of a win?
I've had way more fun in games where I trapped the hell out of the map before even getting on a chase and I was using CI for it (cause there are lots of dummies out ther who think, IN RED RANKS! WTH?! that waiting for CI to fade is better than trying to find a viable gen to do and regardless of how many gens were done), I 4k and all survivors sent a GG message afterwards thinking I was OP, as traper...
I don't know man, I just believe that there are more important core stuff that need the Devs attention more than gen speed, I'd start with matchmaking, pipping sistem and maps, and we'd have to see from there.
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Lets say I got into a match with you on my usual full red ranks SWF, then we'd hide for about, lets say, 2 minutes, maybe let you find one of us whyle others do totems, do chests, etc. THEN we start doing gens and the same outcome would've come from it cause of map and killer issues, you didn't get gen rushed, as I said, we gave you around 2 minutes before starting. Would you feel better then? I think the problem is people mistake having a long game with having a good game. As trapper main, red ranks, damn, do gens, I'm still getting a 3k+ and that's a win in my book, I don't care if it took me 5 mins or 20, the pip and the kills are the win for me.
If you didn't teabag me or sandbagged a teammate you're not toxic, you're doing your only objective as a survivor.
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Heh, yeah sorry again I like to make sure I'm thorough with discussion.
I'm with you on how wins should be determined. I enjoy 4(3) genning by embracing the fact htat I have to hook survivors 3 times each. In my ideal scenario, I pay the price of losing 2 outer gens while hooking survivors a few times. When there are only 2 gens left for survivors, the "true" game begins. Based on how well I as the killer or how well the survivors do at this point, will determine how things will go. If I manage to find a survivor with 2 hooks already and down him now its a 3v1 with 2 gens and I have a pretty good advantage. Buuuttt if survivors avoid my grasp and can afford to get hooked more orr got sneaky and infiltrated those core gens I mentioned in my past post, then I typically concede that I may not win clean and have to settle for a black pip and shift my focus from defending gens to getting hooks. This is far from reality atm as it is a huge gamel to willingly put yourself in that scenario.
I stopped playing survivor a while ago. When I did I was in the red ranks during the cube era. When I did play, I agree, you were guaranteed to bump into a survivor, hell it was proven in the early days of the dedicated servers when dcs during loading screen was constant. Survivors would end up with 200 bp because they spawned in and got that reunited bonus. That said, we are talking about red rank survivors and even though its always been fairly easy to progress, not all red rank survivors are walk-ins. Id like to think the majority are skilled, which means they know not to stack gens. ( unless its intentional to guarantee killer interaction to ensure they dont blackpip by escaping too fast).
To answer your question of if I think the gen speeds and preventing them from being completed is affecting our perception of a win: 100% it is. My win condition is a pip plain and simple. Just liek survivor I came up during the cube days where the win/black pip condition was simple: hook 2 survivors 3 times each. Id love for that to make a return along with the emblem system. Where if you hook 3 people it guarantees a pip and if you get 2 then the emblem system takes effect to determine if you blackpip or not. THis is a different conversation as well though so I'll get back on track lol. "Fun" and "winning" are polar opposites in DbD right now. It would be nice to just focus on hunting survivors and I think/hope it is like this with the new gatekeeper change. I'll have to get back to you on how I feel about the game with these new changes.
Another brick but final point here: I wish I could agree with you that attention is needed elsewhere but how I see it, it all comes down to how the game is played. If that game is ending just as it starts, what happens after that game is over doesnt mean so much. And if people cant play the kilelrs they want to play because they cant cross the map fast enough to even stop survivors from finishing the gens then not as many people will play making MM changes not so meaningful. The video I posted showcased a main point of map size not being an issue but my one concession would be if anything were to be adjusted before gen speeds, it would be map size but I have a controversial opinion of that-- I WANT/ LIKE big maps. i want it to be hard to even find gens. I think survivors grouping on one generator would reallllyyy be a bad idea if the killer finds them and they have to go farrr away to start on another gen. This cant work though with this game lol. I like the map designs I dont like the idea of maps being shaved down because it takes away fro the aesthetic. I'd need people to define what a decent map size would be to fine tune my opinion though. So the reason why I think gen speeds beats map size is that addressing map size seems impossible.
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Yep, you downed survivors as fast as possible, and ran two slowdown perks, yet 3 gens popped under 2 minutes. This is the reality now that Ruin got nerfed.
Also to answer your question in the video, the was really no other play you could have done. You basically did what every killer is doing now and capitalizing on the mistakes the survivors made, and camping when it's needed.
Your video is a very good example that maps aren't the only problem, and that gen times are an actual problem that needs to be addressed first.
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Maps don't make toolboxes not BS.
So it's more than the maps.
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Ok add in keys and moris too?
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Heh, I appreciate it. Actually I am discussing this on another thread who thinks that I should take the bait and chase a survivor away from the basement knowing the other will free them while no one is doing gens. I pretty much assume now that survivors feel that killers are obligated to allow survivors safe unhooks and I couldnt disagree more.
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