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Why "Gen Times" Aren't the Problem
This is going to be my attempt at helping people understand objective mechanics, and why saying "gen speeds" is actually a bad way to think about it.
As is evident in many, many posts on the forums and reddit and youtube videos and so on an so forth, people are constantly talking about gen speed. Things like "gen speed is too much", or "survivors can finish all the gens in 3 minutes". As far as I can remember, this has been the big bad for all of DbD's lifetime. Gen speed.
I think this is a non-progressive way to think about it. So, what is a progressive way to think about it?
Segway! What I think of when I someone asks me what a perfect objective/gamemode looks like, I think of Team Fortress 2's payload mode.
For those of you that don't know of TF2 or haven't played it, in payload on the offense team you have to "push" a cart through a map, onto the final capture point, or on the defense team you have to stop the other team from pushing the cart. The entire gamemode starts with a time limit (usually 5 minutes), with multiple mid-way capture points through the map that add time. The flow of the game is the back-and-forth between the offense team pushing, and the defense team stopping the pushes.
So, on the offense team, if you push the cart with no stops along the entire way, the game can be completed in 2 to 3 minutes. That's the "objective speed". Of course, no game is ever that short. The game is prolonged quite a bit by the defense team interacting with/stopping the offense team from pushing the cart. The whole "game" is the interaction.
So, what makes the interaction happen? What facilitates it? In my opinion, two things. One: map design based on character abilities, and two: win conditions. Of course, the biggest and most obvious one is the win condition. People want to win, and they'll do what it takes to accomplish that. The other one is much more subtle, but just as important, if not more.
Map design is so important in games. In TF2, maps usually have very open areas where the interactions happen, and more compact areas where downtime/travel time occurs. TF2 can afford to have generally larger maps because the characters all have ranged weapons, and that lets people interact from much farther away.
This is where DbD comes back in. Maps in DbD are huge. There are very very few ranged abilities in DbD, and even so, none of them are hitscan, so the large map formula does not fit. It makes player interaction few and far in between, and overall makes the game less fun. All of the interactions occur at very close range. This is why "gen times" come into question all the time, because there is no interaction to stop the objective.
If the maps were smaller, it would even be fine to increase pallets and lessen gen times. To an extent.
This is the progressive way to think about the game. Not in "gen times", but "why are gen times".
TL;DR: Bad map size & design causes less player interaction, and is the reason why "gen times" are accused of being the problem, because there are no interactions to stop Survivors from doing their objective.
Comments
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Hmm so the lack of interactivity from certain maps and killers are the problem?
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Decreasing map size will help a bit, but without using slow down perks and add-ons, the gens will still pop too fast. Like, the Asymmetrical Aspect of the game, means no matter how well designed the maps are, you'll still find yourself in situations where you are interacting with one player, while three other players are hard at work on objectives, completely out of your control.
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Yes that's a part of the game, not a problem that needs solving 🤣
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Yeah.Because, technically, DbD is a melee game, maps have to be small to fit the gameplay. Especially so to fit the asymmetrical bit.
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People will just do gens in your face. You can't chase them all.
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But, you can. You just feel like you can't because of bad map design.
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That just comes down to play style. Don't chase one player. Slug people.
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I'm going to go ahead and say you cant. This also requires the survivors be on the same gen or close together. most games the survivors are smart enough to each pick a gen. You simply can't be in 4 places at once and you cant design a game to depend on one side making a mistake. Cause when they git gud and make zero mistakes, the game is unfair.
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So, are you saying all of your games are always losses? The survivors always 4-man escape?
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Your twisting my words into something its not. Read my post again then come back to me.
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Yes and no. You and two other people have said the same exact thing. I disagree with that thing. You can not chase multiple people, but you can pressure multiple people. Basically the same thing.
So, I'm asking you, are you saying this because you don't care about map size, or you just want to make gens 100 seconds and turn Survivor into M1 simulator?
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I'm saying you cant pressure all 4 at once. Map size can play a factor in that but that's not my point. Odds are your going to find 1 maybe 2 survivors on a gen. Most cases 1 because of discordance and survivors know it's better to do your own gen. You hit one person, you chase them, unless they run past another survivor your not going to be able to pressure multiple people. Hitting that one person then leaving to find someone else is counter productive too. Most of the killers don't have a one shot mechanic or powers that help them in a chase. They NEED time to catch someone. That's why gen speeds are not fine for all killers. I don't feel adding more time to the gens is the right solution because meta killers such as billy can become OP with that. What I think would solve the issue is adjusting the gen times on 3 things.
1: The size of the map
2: The killer being used. If it's a slower killer or someone who requires time to setup increase the time. If it's Nurse, Billy, Spirit ect don't increase time.
3: Most importantly, I think we could use some sort of oversight by the entity. An AI to watch the course of the match and toss a helping hand if one side is doing too well. Example: If 3 gens pop all within the same amount of time before a hook is made, up the time it takes to complete the next gen. Vice Versa. If the killer is hooking people left and right speed up the gen repair.This option would obviously require a lot of work so I doubt BHVR would go with that.
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I stopped reading when he tried to compare TF2 to DBD.
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lovely contribution <3
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Slowing or speeding up the gen times based on what's being played and what's happening in the match removes skill from the game. That's training wheels.
A good Killer can pressure all 4 Survivors at once, and if the gens were sped up based on a Killer doing their job, that's unfair to the Killer. Survivors get an easier time because you're good at the game?
Same thing for Survivors. If Survivors are doing too much too quickly, the gens slow down, because the Killer needs that time? Because the Survivors were managing their time well, the Killer gets an easier game and potentially free win?
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Reworking ruin because people cant hit great skill checks also removes skill from the game. Since the survivors are the majority it doesnt seem to be a problem to keep their training wheels.
I still dont believe a good killer can pressure all 4 at once. You keep saying they can but yet to give any examples.
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In a large majority of games I play (Mainly as Oni, Doctor, and Wraith), I can pressure all 4 Survivors by slugging and managing/zoning Survivors.
The only times I can't is when I have a bad map, or when I just am not playing well. Sometimes that happens.
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Doc I could understand cause of his madness.
Oni too once you build up his power he can attempt to steam roll.
However not every killer has a power that permits them to pressure everyone. Also slugging I feel isnt helping the game. Im not saying we should never do it but if we have to slug to stand a chance I feel something is wrong with the game. We have to really go out of our way to slow the gens down. Our objective is to kill the survivors and I feel like were spending more and more time away from that.
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Fair enough about the feel of the game, but in my opinion, the mechanics come first.
The Survivors have one objective: gens
The Killers have two objectives: survivors, and protecting gens
By slugging as Killer, you're stopping your objectives from working on your other objectives.
Slugging is a very important strategy in a match with all 5 players being high-skill.
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Imagine how hard it would be for theses guys if gen speeds got increased
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That's just Nurse. A good Nurse player can win against any Survivor team.
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I have 6500 in playing killers. As the Spirit sure I could pressure at least 2 survivor at once against strong swf, but if I would use Michael against the same team ouplayed with Spirit I could get max 1 kill.. 2 if they screw up for altruism plays in the endgame, as well as it happens...
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