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To the People who say Key is Fair
I think it is fair to say that the Key is a beyond stupid mechanic that should not exist in this game period. It is an item that heavily rewards Survivor even if they play badly and heavily punishes Killer but doesn't in anyway punish the Survivor.
personally i really dislike EGC as it's boring for both sides at the end of the match because as Killer you pretty such need to slug and even then it's not guaranteed to get the 4 man due to the sound bugs (Survivors literally making 0 sound on the floor). Even when it's one person left, you close the hatch they still have another 2 chances to escape meaning Killer moves back and forward between gates which once again is very boring heck they may even have a Key thus giving them a 3rd chance even though you found hatch first so the counter play is none existent.
I see a lot people comparing Keys to Mori's and this a stupid comparison for a number of reasons as they are completely different.
Key:
- Key an Item which has bonus features with add ons (Killer Aura for example)
- Key can be used every game with a certain add on that allows you to keep it even if you die
- Key can be found in chest
Mori:
- It is an offering which can only be used once (depending on how many you have)
- Requires 5 Devour Hope stacks. That's even if it gets that far
- Rancor, terrible perk anyway as it requires all gens done to even be used and even then it's not guaranteed
- Tombstone Myers, negative being slow speed and by time you even reach tier 3 against an optimal team the game will be over anyway
- Punishes Killer points massively
- Can't be found by RNG in match
Lets just picture something for 2 seconds. Imagine if Killers found a Green 1 use Mori in a locker and it was all based on RNG. The Mori also would not need a requirement of the Survivor being hooked first you can just use it when you first down them. Think about how frustrated Survivors would be if this was a mechanic. People who use Keys most their matches just think about that for a bit and think to yourself if that would be fun for you.
Comments
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The one issue I have to the comparison of keys and mori is that keys, if a lot of people leave, it's usually because a lot of gens were done. Some games, you dont even get the chance to use it and is only ever useful late game. Moris on the other hand can be used as long as you hooked the survivor once. That can be early, mid, or late. Mori gives an advantage at all stages of the game, while keys only give an advantage at one stage, late game. They both need to be nerfed equally.
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Both keys and Mori offerings need to be nerfed. Both are really unfun to play against.
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It's all true. The whole hatch mechanic is a mechanic that rewards survivors for doing nothing but being the last one in a match. With a key you are rewarded for absoultly nothing but finding the free win mechanic.
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Neither need to be nerfed. They just need to be made more rare.
Not EVERYTHING needs to be nerfed. There is such thing as overbalance, and it's what kills games by making them a boring snoozefest.
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True not everything needs to be nerfed, just certain things need to be nerfed. Things that when you play against it you think "well that wasn't fair", things like irri heads or keys or mori's.
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Iri heads, yes. Keys and mori's, no. They just need their rarity upped by like, 10x. If you nerf them beyond where they are, they will be useless and not worth using.
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By that logic why not just up the rarity of irri heads as well? Why is it ok for that to be nerfed but the others not.
Better yet why did we Nerf/change nurses, spirits and Freddy's add-ons? Would it have been better to just change the rarity if the add-ons?
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Because Iri heads are actually OP. They require no effort. Mori's at least require a full chase (which can take up to 3-4 gens against a good survivor), and a hook, then another chase. They are effectively an earned kill.
And Nurse's addons for omega blink/3-5 blinks were FAR worse than mori's. Spirits addons were BS, and Freddy? Well, one could argue that nerf was unnecessary, because the nerf they made was so inconsequential.
If you're going to compare apples to oranges, best not try to have this discussion.
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So let me make sure I understand your logic. It's ok to Nerf something if it is op like irri heads, nurse add-ons etc...so does that mean that keys and Mori offerings are balanced in your eyes?
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Addons vs. Offerings. Killer specific vs. Killer universal. Two completely different things.
I didn't say they were balanced. I said they don't need to be nerfed. People with your attitude of "nerf everything waaaaa" are going to turn DBD into a snoozefest because you take the game too damn seriously.
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I'm just trying to figure out where you are coming from. So out of 10 (10 being overpowered and 1 being useless) where do you place keys and ebony Mori? And what would the threshold be that would require a Nerf?
Lol at "people with your attitude", definitely proved your point lol
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From a killer main perspective? Mori's are not worth running. You lose out on bloodpoints, you lose sacrifice/emblem points etc. Why do you think killers have so many mori's? Because they use them so rarely (aside from yellow and brown ranks, but that's a different conversation, the novelty hasn't worn off on them yet). Why do you think killers run them so rarely? Because we'd rather have bloodpoints.
So, given that killers are punished for using them, pretty heavily (like, we could bring an ebony and depip for using it), and that it takes a 2 full chases and a hook to even use it, I would say they are mildly unbalanced, but not this overpowered harbinger of doom people say it is. 4/10 for Mori's
Keys? I don't really care about keys. They can't be used until the end of the game, and there's a counter to them. It's called Franklin's Demise. All I would do to adjust keys is perhaps get rid of the addons that allow you to keep them on use/death. For keys, same as mori's. 4/10
"Requires a nerf" is subjective, but for me the threshold would be 8/10. For example, the Iri head is a good 9/10. The correct way to nerf it would be to still have it be a one hit down, but only on long shots. No close up one hit downs. Or, make it so it can't stack with the infantry belt. Either one would be fine.
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Wow...I was expecting a 6 or a 7 but 4? As in you think it's underpowered. I'm genuinely surprised.
I guess I see it in a different perspective, I never considered it through bloodpoints or pips. As a fellow killer main I judge it through it's lethality and if you are in a game where you are having difficulty winning two Chase's on a single survivor then that game is probably already lost regardless of a Mori in play.
You are also right that killers rarely use mori's, I personally don't use it because it feels very cheap to use it, I genuinely feel bad if I equip it.
Keys also feel cheap and yes Franklin's can help but sometimes you don't even know a key is in play. And there are certain scenarios that have no counterplay like when you close the hatch and the survivor is standing there with key. Just a 5 second animation would be enough.
I agree with the no stack with infantry belts.
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I didn't say it was underpowered. 4, maybe 5. Based on the downsides alone.
I only really bring a mori if it's someone I know (I'd expect the same from them:P), someone with the name "Mori me", a team of Blendette's...or a whole team of Pizza Dwights. Those guys are up to no good.
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You did say it was underpowered by saying 4 lol. 10 is op, 1 is useless and 5 is balanced...I figured that was obvious.
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Keys and Moris need to be reworked, I agree.
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The goal is to escape any means necessary
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Both need a rework. Keys, I think would be fine, by either changing the hatch spawning rules or not making them instand escape, when arriving at the hatch etc.
Moris on the other hand need a total rework to be still fun, game changing but not pushing the balance too much.
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I think an easy fix to keys is simple add a requirement to use it like complete one gen or something along those lines or add a hatch animation that way they can’t just open it in front of you
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A key only works under two conditions. The survivors are playing well to good and completing gens or you are just murdering them all.
A hatch only spawns after certain conditions, however a mori is more quickly met and allows for an extreme amount of map pressure.
For example, you should be able to find and hook someone within 60-120 seconds of the game. Quickly downing them after an unhook allows you to instantly mori them. Taking a 4v1 at 5 gens to a 3v1 at 5 gens.
A key still wouldn't be able to be used at this point. I am not saying keys are not strong, I am just saying mori's are about if not stronger. The devs have even mentioned that if they change one, they are going to change both at the same time.
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On average I would say a Mori has a higher power level than a key however I think when both sides of a match are skilled players they pretty much even out.
Keys do not require a ton of gens unless your goal is to get everyone out. If I am using a key and gens are going slow the killer is actually helping me escape by killing off my team because it will cause the hatch to be available sooner and require less gens to appear.
My stance on both Keys and Moris is that neither should exist as they remove an aspect of the match that feels bad for the opposing side and doesn't really offer anything positive to the overall experience. Change them or remove them is my opinion.
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I'm pretty sure all reasonable people at LEAST agree that Ebony Moris and keys both need to be done away with. I think Ivory should go too because MJ and Paul harmonize together so well.
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Nerf moris and pink add ons and then you can complain about the last "op" item a surv has. I've been morid and killed thanks to pink add ons faaar more than I've seen or escaped through the hatch with a key. Most games you can 2k before the hatch even spawns which is a fair game. Most games arent supposed to be a 4k. Get used to it.
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While I can understand making it impossible to find dull or skeleton keys inside of chests and only available in bloodwebs, the actual gameplay value of keys is rather balanced. In order for all 4 survivors to get out, 5 gens have to get done in which case, they would be able to get out just using the gate anyways. For 2 or 3, less gens have to be done but finding the hatch without audio is actually a bit of a challenge without a map. As for the last survivor, it's a huge advantage, but not a garunteed situation from when they chose the key and risked whether not it would be useful or just lost.
Comparing keys to moris is ridiculous. Moris are absolutely garunteed to be useful with none of the types of risks that keys involve. And ebony mori is beyond overpowered in its current state. It reduces to requirements to 4K by about half.
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I think both Keys and Moris are unfair and should be nerfed.
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The whole EGC mechanic is a mechanic that rewards bad killers who did not manage to find and hook all survivors during normal game time. With the EGC you are rewarded with a 4k for having no other skill but look left and right all the time to the horribly spawned exit gates more than 50 % of all games on 90 degree adjacent walls by the top quality software design of BHVR....free kill with no skill whatsoever.
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My only problem is when nobody brings one in, you kill 3 and find the last as you close the hatch, only to have them run right up to you and leave. With a key they found.
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People don't generally complain about mori's in the ideea of killing a surv, but rather the usage of a Ebony Mori, the add-on that grants you that benefit after the second hook. Though I agree with your points made, it hurts the killer for having fun with pink mori or thombstone myers.
My ideas of balance for both are:
- keys: make it so only the person that has opened the hatch can go through it
- moris: make them so you gain the benefit to kill after the second hook on the pink one.
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Oh my god. Why don't we just take away the hatch and exit gates completely. Then will you think the game is fair? 😇
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I don't really understand why people likes to put Mori's and key's at the same level, yes both allows you to complete the match but saying "both allows to complete the game faster" and put them in the same level is ignoring "how" it allows
Keys. If survivors completed most of their objetive then they can escape, meaning only works if they worked on his objetive. So "keys rewarding bad plays" can only be used in the scenario where a survivor in the EGC finds a key in a chest (I think it should be changed) because completing 4 of 5 gens, that is almost complete their objetive. And yes, it bothers but you as a killer are not entitled to win a 4K
Mori's on the other hand can be used since the start of the match, except for Cypress Mori, and allows you to remove a player at the early game, wich is a huge disadvantage for survivors.
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The issue with Mori's is, a killer can camp, tunnel, and then mori you straight off the hook. Had it happen to me against a Rank 1 Oni. (I was Rank 7). Keys are a bit unfair, but they do require a set number of gens. I don't feel nearly as cheated when a player leaves with a key as I do when I get tunneled off hook and mori'd.
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I get where you are coming from but in a scenario where there are two gens left with two survivors left, the killer should be in a very good position but if a key is in place then it's already gg at this point.
This is usually the scenario that leaves a bad taste. If one gen is left and 3 survivors escape, that isn't so bad as the survivors were going to escape anyway.
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Well, I understand your point. I had a match like that a few months ago, I didn't care that they won, but about the fact that they were waiting for me.
In this case scenario yes, it gives you a bad taste but honestly, it's harder than it seems. Unless they are a SWF team. Don't missunderstand me, there should be a "special rule" that helps to prevent it. Like "the hatch gets closed after being used if there are less than five gens powered"
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That scenario is more common than you would think. Normally the first two gens get done fairly easily and before the first survivor is hooked. After that the killer has some pressure with hooks and it becomes a little bit more difficult do gens.
Once one survivor is killed, the killer can stabilize and it's these scenarios where the key leaves a bad taste. The killer starts from behind and plays catch up and but that catch up is meaningless if a key is present.
Id probably change keys so that it only allows the person that has the key to escape and disables the hatch for the rest of the game unless another key is present. This way using the key would be seen as selfish and potentially screws over the other survivors. Survivors would have to think about using the hatch as it would no longer be an option in end game.
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That's really the only way to nerf mori's without making them absolutely useless all together. Make them more rare. Even still, they are rarely used to begin with (because there's huge downsides) and aren't really an issue. There's a reason killers have hoards of them; and it's not cause they use them every game.
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100 % agree it is the fact that they are too common that is the problem not that they are in the game.
I did see your other comment and I would say that ebony Moris are very common in the web. Keys are not. But keys are easy to get with plunderers out of a chests.
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That's not possible, as you might be aware there is an achievement that everybody should escape via the hath.
And I don't mean the hatch appearing but both survivors escaping via the hatch, unless they are a SWF I find it most unlikely. Yes, the gens are done fast so the hatch appears but a survivor escaping via the hatch nowadays it's rare. I played a lot lately as killer and survivor and I found that the killer found it faster, of course, sometimes they wanted to close the hatch in front of me so I escaped because they tried to "make fun of me".
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Tunnel the key user, I do that alot
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You ever tunnel a key user but you feel bad because they had a green key the entire time?
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Pretty much, yeah. If you go into a game with a key in your hand, you're asking to be tunneled.
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Too many times to count, but man are those red keys more common than green
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Lmao yea, and then they call you a tunneler in end-game chat
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The problem is DBD isn't a card game or a board game. It's not like playing Uno where you put little skill and effort in, so you're not so bothered when you get screwed by random chance.
DBD is a videogame. You can put blood, sweat and tears into a game as killer. Working your ass off against a swf genrush squad. Eventually they make a mistake, they 3 gen themselves. You've eliminated one of them. You feel like you've really worked hard for this victory......oops they all just jumped through the hatch. Despite all your hard work and you giving it 110% effort you get.... ENTITY DISPLEASED.
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DBD is about as casual as it gets. It's basically a party game. The problem isn't the so-called OP stuff in the game. The problem is people like you, who take it too seriously and want it nerfed down to a boring snoozefest.
Stop trying to ruin DBD with your delicate sensibilities and inability to see a game as just a game. You've been told, repeatedly, by many in this forum that people with your attitude are the problem more or less. That should be an indicator. When most of the people disagree with you, it goes beyond being opinion, and even further from being fact. You're just wrong, and salty that you got mori'd, or had a survivor use a key.
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Keys and mori's are underpowered anyway as mentioned above lol
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Nobody said they are underpowered. You're the only one who used that word.
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4 out of 10 is underpowered lol how do you not understand that?
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4-5 out of ten is middle of the road. You're the one repeatedly using the word "underpowered". I even specified they were powerful, but with huge downsides. You literally have nothing on me if you have to manufacturer statements that I never used. You're trying to outwit me and failing worse than a facecamping Bubba with speed limiter.
But okay - stick to your piddly little weak strawman argument. Keep making yourself look silly, haha
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Nah my dude. What are you talking about? Keys are fair and balanced. It’s not like they reward misplays by survivors. The killer can TOTALLY counter keys.
You’re just trippin.
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4 is slightly underpowered...5 is balanced. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend. You are the one that tripped yourself up, don't get mad at me.
Calling something powerful than giving it a low score on power is contradictory...I didn't do that, I didn't force you to do that.
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