[NoED] Why Do People Think Gens Is The Killers Objective?
I've had this argument with several people before. But it just urks me because I see it all the time.
People claim that NoED rewards "bad plays" by the Killer because he fails to keep up with his objective of defending gens.
Except there's one small problem; that isn't the Killer's main objective. It's just his main obstacle.
The Killer's main objective is to hook and sacrifice Survivors. It rewards him the most points next to chases. Gens? They give you some pity points for kicking a Gen. No points for interrupting gen progress. No points for perks that reduce gen progress. In fact they rob you of your points sometimes.
The generators are an obstacle to the Killer's main objective, which the Killer has to keep in mind and address. Much like pallets, sabotaging, and so on. But that does not make it his primary objective. It doesn't matter if the survivor gets zero gens or all gens or if they are meters away from the exit; if the Killer sacrifices them, it's a win for him.
So why then, do people keep arguing that NoED rewards playing badly?
It's a perk that is only activated in the Late Game. You invest in a perk slot for a Late Game Perk (A hex perk at that!) which can be deactivated by survivors passively cleansing Dull Totems. The payoff is punishing that and getting a powerful perk that you premptively picked.
I don't understand this mentality. Late Game perks always reward the Killer for leaving himself vulnerable in the Early Game... Playing in the Late Game. Fire Up is a Late Game perk.
It's like these people have no concept of Early, Mid, or Late Game.
Comments
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I think people assume NOED rewards bad play because defending gens is sort of a side objective for the killer. The more gens there are, the more time you have as a killer. And when playing killer it's less about the hunt, and more about racing the clock.
So NOED is seen as "rewarding bad play" because you are given a huge boost of power when you are supposed to be "losing".
That's just my guess on it.
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The game isnt over untill everyone has escaped. Theres tons of perks that activates when gens gets done, and noed is one of them. The thing is that survivormains are a fragile species, that cant handle anything going against them. How can you be toxic with noed ingame I mean?
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NOED needs changed. I don't know what those changes should be, though. It pretty much gives the killer a free kill for doing absolutely nothing. The killer could stand in the corner all game and still get NOED. It needs some changes.
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Short, direct answer; they say that because it gets them killed. How dare the killer kill survivors.
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That is using NOED for bad play, but that doesn't necessarily means that NOED is used specifically for that.
One of the most dangerous Hag builds, the one shot Hag has NOED as an "insurance" perk if survivors manages to get all the gens done.
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It... Doesn't tho. It rewards the Killer for playing the Early and Mid Game with essentially three perks for a powerful perk that he can only use 10% of the match.
And that assumes the survivors are too lazy to utilize the tools GIVEN TO THEM to cleanse Dull Totems and completely nullify the perk.
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But if the killers standing around doing nothing and gets noed ...
that is a you problem not a noed problem.
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Most killers who run NOED are just bad. They can't mindgame or run tiles properly, they chase for way too long and they don't even attempt to apply any pressure because they don't need to because they have NOED to get them easy kills. As for cleansing totems, I do but I can't do all the work.
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The problem is that the killer can do terrible and get free kills because of noed. The killer doesn't have to do anything to activate it. Maybe it should be changed to where the killer has to hook all survivors for it to work. Something needs to be done. It's not always easy to take out all of the totems when playing solo.
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Noed does reward bad plays. The killer gets rewarded for survivors bad plays.
There are several counters to Noed.
Opening the gate and leaving.
Breaking all 5 totems.
Escape through hatch with key.
Using a map to find totems.
Using Small Game to find totems.
It really surprises me how many survivors play around the majority of killer perks but still not this one.
This is because the thought process of a survivor is that it's a waste of time doing a totem when they could be on a gen.
I don't know how many times i have seen survivors run past dull totems then complain about noed.
Any survivor who still hasn't learnt to counter noed is simply a bad survivor, as you are the one rewarding the killer for using that perk instead of punishing them as a wasted perk slot.
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As a demogorgon player, I hate this mentality. Any Demo worth their salt invests in endgame because the Demogorgon's pressure ramps up exponentially the less he has to defend. NOED, IF, Distressing, and perk of choice (Fire Up for bonus endgame) makes the demo an end game god.
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Same argument for DS. You got hooked, your teammate decided to unhook you, and whether it was an unsafe unhook or not, whether the killer was there as it happened or he finds you later, that's 60 seconds of being able to just tap a button and escape the killer's grasp, twice!
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The killer's objective is to kill before they have time to complete the 5th generator and escape.
Gens are a strategic secondary objective for the killer since gens are the "timer" the killer has to do his objectives. This is why "pop" or even the new ruin are useful perks.
However, this has nothing to do with the NOED. I think NOED is balanced.
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I Have a late Game build on Nurse:
BBQ
Infectious Fright
Blood warden
NOED
Im not the best nurse, i like to practise her thou. In Early Game i have to rely on my detection Perks to find the next survivor.
But in the Endgame it really gets stong. The main thought behind this build was to punish toxicity because as i tried to learn nurse (and i was REALLY Bad at the start) I got bullied so hard.
The Point is:
Its on the survivors to detect the perks the killer has equipped.
If i See a meg and approach her and she sprint bursts away, i keep that in my mind. if a person gets healed really fast after being unhooked, i guess the unhooker has WGLF and keep that in mind.
As survivor its easier, you have only 4 perks to track.
BBQ is easily tracked as infectious.
And if there nothin to see all game for other perks that the killer may have you should have the glorious idea to maybe find all totems.
You dont even need to do Totems against noed, just remember where they are! its completely RNG which totem gets NOED at the end, and if you remembered the spots of them you have an easy time to cleanse it short after all gens are done.
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I think you got it wrong.
Objective of the killer is to hook every survivior as much as possible and THEN kill them. To do that you HAVE to defend gens, otherwise its impossible. If you get 12 hooks and you didnt defend gens, then:
a) matchmaking ######### up
b) game is too killer sided, so killer needs to be nerfed
Thats how this game is. You CAN get a 4k without defending gens, but you wont get more than 8 hooks.
So basically, defending gens is not really your objective, BUT it IS and should always be REQUIRED to archieve your objective.
So yes, camping 1 person while waiting for gens to be done and then getting 1/2 more hooks and 1/2 more kills because of NOED is a failure and not doing your objective at all.
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Omg, stop saying that playing with NOED is like playing with 3 perks, its just not true.
Gen time solo without toolbox is 5x80 = 400s
Cleansing 5 totems (ONLY CLEANSING NOT FINDING) is 80s, so basically its as if there were 6 gens instead of 5
Thanatophobia (AT FULL STACKS) gives you 16% gen slowdown. 400s/0.84≈476s
So NOED total time = 480 seconds
Thanatophobia max total time = 476 seconds
Thanatophobia is definitely a perk, and it gives you less game slowdown than NOED... And Thanatophobia doesnt give you instadowns at the end of the game...
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At this point you could say gens aren't the survivor's objective, since their real one is to escape. But this is a very short-sighted (and frowned upon) view since it leads to unfun gameplay.
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Playing with NOED Is playing with 3 perks because it can be destroyed, same with Ruin, if RUin pops within the first minute of the game, guess what? you are out that perk because there is no passive ability. Do you see NOED become active while the gens are up? no.
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This is a very long-winded way of saying, 'I don't want to spend 14 seconds on a Dull Totem I find throughout the match'.
Also you neglect to take into account that you aren't stationary and vulnerable to the Killer while Cleansing like you are when you do a generator. You're vulnerable for 14 seconds, which is hardly any time at all compared to a gen where you can be forced off of it continuously, and can regress in speed.
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Well yes, the calculations here are done without taking regression into account, but also are done with Thanatophobia at FULL STACKS. Having it at full stacks all game is basically impossible, so we can say its comparable. Not to mention how much time you spend just FINDING totems. 80s is cleansing alone.
Actually it doesnt even matter, the point is "NOED PROVIDES SLOWDOW" so you CANT say that it does nothing until late game. It may not be the strongest slowdown perk there is, but its still something you cant ignore.
So, PLAYING WITH NOED IS NOT PLAYING WITH 3 PERKS
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Killers kill, protecting gens is a side activity
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Did you read ANYTHING out of what I wrote?
NOED can be cleansed, AND THATS THE POINT.
NOED takes over 80 seconds to cleanse, and this is a slowdown comparable to other slowdown perks.
So playing with NOED is not playing with 3 perks, because NOED gives you either:
- Over 80 seconds of gen slowdown
- Exposed and 4% haste in the endgame
- A bit less than 80 seconds of gen slowdown, AND Exposed and 4% haste in the endgame.
So it doesnt matter if surviviors will cleanse the NOED or not, you get value EITHER WAY.
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Does anyone use NOED against good survivors? You play the game with 3 perks, get one instadown and lose your totem. It's a terrible perk. I feel like I'm losing my mind every time I read one of these threads. You don't see NOED as much at red ranks because it's a bad perk, not because bad killers use it. If you think you got snowballed because of NOED, you didn't get snowballed because of NOED.
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Noed rewards bad play. Like it or not. You put noed on you are already admitting you can't prevent gennys from getting done.
I have 7 devotions as killer and I know how hard killer can be. But I wont use noed because it's a waste of a slot . Kill em before gens all get done or take the loss.
Of course play how you like. I have no problem as survivor blowing up your noed and saving my friends. But dont act like noed means you outplayed anyone.
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Have you seen any of these perks? They're all no-skill. They activate under conditions. None of them involve outplaying people. Its about catering your playstyle to a certain build and tactic.
NoED caters to an entirely Late Game build, sacrificing the potential for good Early and Mid Game for a clutch Late Game. You don't 'deserve' anything other than a down if you're so big headed you think you're above being punished for your lacking foresight.
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Yeah, but who uses late game builds except new killers or those that lack confidence in getting 4ks before gennys all pop?
And there is a lot of mind games throughout a match that allows the opportunity to out play your opponent. Why would you sacrifice your early and mid game unless you lack the confidence in that part of your game?
Noed is a crutch that rewards bad game play. Use it if you like, but it's like DS for a survivor , it's a crutch. You do nothing to benefit from a perk.
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You do nothing to benefit from all perks.
And perks almost have zero bearing on mind-gaming. Some even nullify their use, like Play With Your Food which can close down certain loops at three stacks.
You could use the argument you're using for literally every perk.
"Oh, using Prove Thyself? Don't have confidence in your ability to repair gens?"
"Oh, Dark Devotion? Don't have the confidence to run up to people on your own? Gotta play stealthy?"
"Hmm, Infectious Fright? Can't handle finding people on your own?"
Literally just remove perks if you have a problem with it.
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I agree NOED can reward a kill to a player who may not have proven skillful on their own and I'm not a huge fan of the perk as a whole. I'm also not one to say the perk is "OP" or broken either as I find it easy enough to deal with (solo survivor).
With that being said your reasoning is also why I dislike the hatch mechanic. I could take my survivor to a corner of the map and spin in circles until everyone is dead or my key has proc and just escape....because.
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Survivors that say NOED is not balanced, probably do play 24/ with BT/DS/DH/Adrenaline or Unbreakbale in swf and still get killed easily because of not doing totems, and then complain in forums about "this game is soooo killer biased" monkas XD
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I don't have a problem with it. And you have a good point about perks.
I guess my point is that noed is a crutch perk that rewards failure. I have played plenty of killer and never see a use for noed. I mean how often are 4 people escaping on the same killer that one would need to make a build around it?
Unless of course you are new to killer. Thanks for the discussion.
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Same argument for Dead hard also you have to fail and get hit
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Games don't last long enough for you to hook everyone 3 times in most cases. This aleviates some of the issues with a flawed game, simple.
Most 4ks come from bad survivors rather than good killers.
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Survivors who run adrenaline or ds cant loop properly. They dont even attempt to avoid the killer because they dint need to, they have DS and Adrenaline to let them get easy escapes
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It does less for free than rancor does.
It simply allows you to one down people, with a slight speed boost, if they DONT DO BONES.
Rancor cannot be stopped, and let's you see everyones locations, one down, and KILL your obsession.
You don't have to do anything for noed except pick it and play w 3 perks. It doesnt reward you, it punishes survivors who dont cleanse.
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By that logic, all exhaustion perks and DS need to be nerfed because you dont need to do anything to get them. Hell, DS and DH reward you for screwing up
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You are heavily overcomplicating the Killer's goal there buddy. The Killer's job is to KILL. The survivors try to escape, and we try to get their scrawny butts onto the meat hooks to feed the spider god. Until BHVR gives actual incentive to rank up, pips should not be a concern
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If you play "fair" as any killer thats not Spirit, or BIlly, above green ranks, gens are getting done, and at least 2 are escaping. If you tunnel one guy, slug, mori, they aren't getting done. If you play "Fair", and bring NOED, theres a 1 in 5 (5 totems) chance that you will bag more than 1k as a low tier killer, thats what the games balanced around right? 2k? NoED makes them leave, which can secure that one hooked fella without the stress of DS, or BT being put into play. It can be countered simply by Doing Bones, using a well timed DH (when it works because dedicated) DS, and most importantly, BT. And above green ranks, they always bring BT.
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It doesn't take 80 seconds to cleanse a totem...
Editing because reasons...
If you are concerned about 80 seconds when the gens get done then thats on you for holding m1 and not interacting with literally anything else the entire game. Some killers never even see all the survivors, not their fault they needed to down that dweet that looped them for 3 gens to prove themselves, ######### can be hard man, y'all want the 1v1, no once asks about the 1v4. NoEd is here to stay, devs said it themselves.
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*Implying I think DS and Adrenaline aren't a problem*
LOL
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5x16=80 seconds. And thats without finding them, just cleansing.
And yes, I am concerned about over 80 seconds, its a time required to do OVER 1 GEN, ALONE, WITHOUT TOOLBOX. So yes, it matters.
Devs also say that current lags are ok, hitboxes are fine, Deathslinger doesnt require precision, DS is an anti tunneling perk, Legion had a bug for a year and they just didnt fix it, its not a bug that Thrilling Tremors pauses gen regression, Ruin is a "insidious" late game Hex perk, etc. I dont think that everything Devs say is right.
I dont want to remove NOED. I want it to be FAIR.
And FAIR means that you cant do nothing all game/ camp 1 person all game and then get 1/2 more kills because NOED. NOED is literally DS for killers.
My idea for NOED rework is: NOED can be used only on surviviors you have hooked before.
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If you camp one person all game, and others die to noed, that's their fault.
Not doing gens or bones if a single camp ends the game.
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No, the killers job is to PLEASE THE ENTITY. Thats all. So ending the game after 30 seconds is not ok. I know this sounds ridiculous, but killer is supposed to make the game last as long as possible, it would be perfect if they got 12 hooks, not 4 kills. And defending gens is required for that.
Im not saying that you should be letting surviviors go, the game itself should be designed in a way that encourages NOT tunneling and NOT camping and discourages tunneling and camping.
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Did you nickname openly say that you're wrong?
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First chase: 60-120s max
Camping: 120s max
Total: 240s MAX
Gens (walking to them): 30s min
Gens (3 people): 160s min
NOED (finding, and cleansing, 3 people): 80s min
Total: 250s MIN
So its almost impossible to do "gens and bones" in a time that is required to camp 1 person, even for a very efficient team.
And if there is even ONE better totem spawn, or god forbid, its under the camped hook, we have guaranteed 2-3 kills for the camper with NOED.
BTW, can you tell me why do you even defend hard camping? Its like defending 4 man key escapes with DS+Unbreakble or Ebony Mori tunneling afer 1st hook
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Noed is actually very good when combined with camping the first hook. You can get a kill early game and easily 1/2 additional kills in the endgame. Realistically, if you stealth camp, you will buy yourself even more time because they'll attempt the save and it results in a 3/4k most often than not. Most Cheapfaces at red ranks/rank 5 play like that. Works flawlessly.
I'm not arguing that is not a legit strategy. It does however reward "bad" playing and the killer will even make decent bp for it. I've seen it first hand.
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Lol touched a nerve I see.
Takes someone losing a lot or not getting ######### done to have to do the math to prove themselves right. If someone is getting camped, and you die to noed it's on you.
Killers dont start the game in a chase. They have to find someone. Meaning work gets done before even THAT. Notice a camper? Do gens. Look for bones. It's not hard.
Also, defending hard camping? I'm not. I'm stating how if they do hard camp, you have options to use other than complain, or throw yourself at them.
However, camping, tunneling, 4 key escapes and 4 mori are all part of the game. I'll defend using in game mechanics as the player sees fit. Camping is a strategy. Wether you like it or not. It also has disadvantages.
I dont have to 'defend' points of fact, or useable tactics. Because I'm not trying to prove anything to you or anyone, and dont care about the judgements towards me based on how I play. 🤷♀️
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I dont really understand what do you have against math or proving your point, so I will ignore it.
You know, it doesnt really matter if there is 30 second dofference between what I said and reality, the point is that these times are similiar, and this proves that NOED camping is AT LEAST HARD TO COUNTER.
Every time someone complains about hard camping, people say "just do gens fast". And wjen they complain about NOED, people say "just do bones". It turns out that you cant "just counter" NOED campers as easily as people say.
These things are part of the game, but can be nerfed or removed if they are not fun. And these thongs are not fun, so something has to be done about them.
NOED is almost fine, the thing that needs a nerf is NOED camping.
I think it can be easily done without affecting endgame builds or decent players, just make NOED only usable on people you have hooked before (just like ebony mori works now).
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This. The narrative that if a killer camps the first survivor to death it guarantees 3 escapes for the other survivors is definitely not the case the majority of the time. That only works if the first survivor leads them on a decent enough chase, does not struggle or suicide on the hook and nobody wastes any time trying to save the camped survivor (which is harder against stealth campers) and entirely focuses on gens.
Camping the first survivor to death and then using NOED is often a very effective strategy.
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The time it takes to camp a Survivor to death is 120 seconds.
In that time Survivors can get over 4 gens done.
If Kindred and SWF is not in play then they must first take the time to check the hook. So lets just say they get 3 gens done, since the time that would be spent on the 4th gen is instead taken by the time it takes to gather information.
So once the first Survivor is dead there is now 2 gens left. If the Killer tries to camp an additional Survivor then the remaining Survivors have enough time to check the hook again, complete both gens and open both gates.
So that's enough time for the Survivors to force a 2k by just not being stupid. No long chases or expert hiding needed. Nor is SWF or Kindred required.
If the first Survivor found is in a SWF or has Kindred then a 30 second chase will guarantee the other 3 escape.
This is all before taking into account things like travel time and hiding. They play into both Survivors and the Killer, but moreso for the Killer due to the fact that he has to patrol while the Survivors don't need to spend much time not doing an objective of some kind.
So you would only expect a Killer that is camping to get more than a 2k if the Survivors screw up on their own. And if the Survivors DID screw up, then the Killer winning because of it is fine.
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Same can be said for most Survivor sided second chance perks.
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