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What happened to "closing the gap between solo and swf"?
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You missed this part: "We make opportune changes to reduce the gap when they arise" :D
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The sabotage change that's coming seems exactly that, since it makes team coordination unneeded for sabo saves. Something is being done.
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Yeah but those are very few and far in between. They're nice changes, yes, but what was the last one before the Kindred buff?
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Kindred got buffed. Equipping it gives you basically SWF level info about hooked survivors and when you're hooked it gives that info to your team.
Even if an ally doesn't have Kindred, you still get info as if they did as long as you have Kindred.
Aside from this, not much else to be said.
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*Introduces Breakout*
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I remember they mentioned that they gave the ability to see Demogorgon's portals breaking for the solo communication. Now we're waiting for other changes. Maybe in 2 years we will be able to see which other teammates is opening a chest.
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So what's the cost of a 4 man swfs using Unbreakable, DS, Deadhard and Adrenaline?
At some point you devs have to at least acknowledge that these perks shouldn't work as well as they do together.
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How would a inbuilt nerfed kindred have widened the gap? All that’s needed is for killer detection to be removed, so swf can’t see stealth killers around the hook, which is a slight gap widen. Another perk could just have that feature in the future or kindreds perk redesign would...
also why can’t we have a indicater for when someone’s being chased? That apparently widens the gap too? Your comment doesn’t have much context or reasoning. So many reasonable ideas have been left unanswered.
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I'll quote this since it sums up all the other points.
Kindred basekit would take all the guesswork out of a match. No reason to leave a gen if I know 100% what the situation is. Throwing in a vacuous hand wavey statement like "pshh a secondary objective will fix this" is dishonest and frankly patronizing.
Totem counter only has one single purpose and that's to let everyone know that NOED can never possibly proc. It's a counter for a single perk. I can't even relay how persistently stupid this idea has been. It has no other purpose.
Chase indicator is yet another nerf to killers. There's already terror radius or changing health states to indicate what is going on. Or hell even just using your eyes to see them. It's redundant when you already have so much feedback. Only serves to nerf stealth killers who already have a bad hand against spine chill.
As for comms and the language barrier, games like Monster Hunter or Killing Floor give you access to simple phrases you can select. If they implemented any kind of communication system for in-game, that is by and far the best choice.
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Well maybe you can refer how communication in other games work.
In game text chat (player can choose skip certain player text chat if they wish)
In game voice comm (player can choose mute certain player if they wish )
Fast wheel text chat select (hold G, wheel appear and player can quickly select the text they wish to enter to text chat insted of typing them )
Developer could always ask opinion from player idea if they facing some difficulty. I am sure that some Player will give proper and logic solution.
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I think you’re in the wrong topic because this is about being more equal to swf...
kindred taking guesswork outa the match pshhh don’t know what the topics about clearly.
(Flaps hands around) totem counter has one single purpose. Errr no. It lets everyone know how many their are for inner strength, noed, any hex used and teammates getting bp from hunting them along with medal points that’s equal to 20% gen repair and any other perk that might be like inner strength in the future. Everyone’s stupid though and you’re superior :/
chase incicater a nerf to killers 😰 (doesn’t read topic title)
a text chat like white noise is best. But comms is no problem except for game canon that can be worked around anyway and introverts
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Well, this is not a valid reason to completely ignore the in game communication system. A lots of other game that have playerbase from many country are having in game communication system and run perfectly fine.
You may use a fast wheel text chat with all the default text. Example -> Killer is nearby me, Killer is chasing me, Come with me, Go for the safe, Killer is coming. All this default text will display different language depend on player language setting if player select it.
Example, player A with language setting English, select fast wheel chat -> Killer is nearby me.
Other player will saw "Killer is nearby me" in the text chat according to the language of their setting.
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The Sabo change allows unco-ordinated solos to deny hooks now.
It's a boost to solos.
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No.
Go play Dota2. Find out that you can even play with people from SEA region using english, do you think english is my native language? I know I make mistakes and it is far from perfect, it will be enough to talk with other people. Than there is french, russian and if you are so reliant on communicating everything there are also translators like deepl which do a pretty good job even regarding grammar.
This is like saying you can not make vacation in country x because you do not speak the language there which is just wrong but hey keep the world as little as you want for you.
Oh and on a sidenote, not every SWF does indeed use comms. So giving everybody the possibility, which everybody has anyway, is just the most logical step and probably the best for game health. Kinda strange that people oppose to it.
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lol read this wrong at first. Yes it’s great for solos. Happy it brought down swf slightly too.
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How is it a nerf to solo saboteurs, particularly since the change is to make it more accessible and viable for everyone?
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I was temporarily having a brain malfunction while reading, it’s over 3am and I have read too many sabo complaints and responded like a idiot. Imma head out 🤦♂️
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No one wants to torture themselves by playing killer right now.
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Buffing solo buffs swf. What do you not get about this? They use the same perks. And kindred is a huge buff with zero drawbacks. Except now you have space for an extra perk. No need for crystal bead, no need for bond or any other aura perks. It's another workaround to actually using the perks in your arsenal and further distilling it into the same 4 meta perks. It's self sabotage. That doesn't even include the perks that already give the killer position away.
It's true playing solo isn't playing like an swf, but there's also another layer which is expecting those other random players to act like a team. If you have kindred basekit, and no one saves you, what is your argument then?
Hexes announce themselves when they're in effect. They also glow. I'm pretty sure if I don't have the dumbs that I can use maths to figure out at least one totem isn't yet broken. And the meta that Nancy needs a free heal is frankly annoying.
Chase indicator is 100% certainty. The game at it's core works better when there's ambiguity. It's a horror game. Even the Obsession shouldn't have it. I've already said you have a variety of other indicators at your disposal. Besides, you know immediately they're not chasing your friends when they're on your ass.
I'm sure you miss being called a patronizing name that is a corruption of an African country, but for everyone else who doesn't want that CoD style horse #########, an in-game pre-made message system would work wonderfully.
I'm not Superior I'm Tactless. :l
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Buffing solo doesn’t buff swf if kindred loses its killer detection at least and you seem to miss the point that it’s to make solo more like swf. Swf shouldn’t be using kindred in the first place, so it’s not like a free perk if they have something they already had, which is awareness. There was already no need for bond, but bond still will help with no comms because kindred requires a hook... think it’s also ok to have a useless perk, since many others are. and crystal bead is still op to find hatch gens totems gates hooks basement and reveal it to the whole team, something swf still benefits from. I honestly don’t understand how you base that off of anything.
if no one saves with kindred you have troll teammates or you’re at rank 20... what is your point.
If you have a totem counter and there’s 2 totems left and you know ones ruin, it can tell you that the other could be devour of hope etc so it’s noteworthy to know... even if it’s just a dull one.
the game works better when there’s ambiguity, but swf doesn’t have that and it’s a topic about solo vs swf with it being off topic to say these things. It’s all for balance and what the devs stupidly said about closing the gap so killers get buffed. Noobs can still be immersed at rank 20 and not understand these signs anyway, or have a advanced option list to choose them.
Not cod style if you get it with every game including dead by daylight console messages with party invites and end game screen text....people are babies if they don’t want verbal assault with a provided mute button. It’s just some people don’t want to engage in conversation or conflict. But that happens anyway and in the end the mute button is no different than having no comms. Unless you feel as though he could telepathically speak to you and you feel offended thinking about what he’s saying, knowing what he sounds like.
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An aura shows a lot more than words can. There's a difference between saying he's near a watertower and spatially seeing where they are. I can see exactly where an exit gate is at endgame while hooked, with no previous knowledge of where it was because of auras. Auras should be nerfed in general but they only buffed them because of this false equivalency between swf and solo.
Solo always presents the problems of being solo. Swf groups even take advantage of that, letting the solo take the heat in endgame.
I don't save people if the danger outweighs the benefit. You don't need to be a troll to allow someone to be sacrificed for the greater good. Greater good being my escape. There's no bonus or benefit to getting everyone out like in Payday.
Yes the gameplay is all about awareness. So what does the killer get in return if all survivors know where each other are at all times and know when every totem done and know where every gen is? Part of the gen problem is people moving back in to work on a gen when they've already moved away and the killer is oblivious. Are they getting surveillance at base kit? The game is about awareness after all. More one hit downs? People love those. Slugging? Oof. They keep ratcheting up the gameplay to match swf (which is already broken) then the result is an even more broken game. Just to match.
The best way to deal with swf is to just delete it. Either that or mess around with what they see so that that your friends are like an unreliable narrator.....wait that's a good idea....what if the level had the same basic layout but everyone seen different landmarks? :o
Yeah I'll fold on the communication bit. No avoiding people being ######### I suppose.
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I wouldn't mind at all to take out the guessing work in order to get a balanced game for everyone.
What's the issue about a totem counter? It's not like it's going to cost money to display something in the HUD. Also you know very well how controversial NOED is. It's ONLY hurting solos, (smart) swf groups will never have issues to deal with it. So either close the gap by adding a counter or close the gap by removing noed. I don't mind any of them solutions, but SOMETHING has to be done.
Yes of course it's a killer nerf, what have you thought else? It's necessity! Swf is stronger atm, so obviously solo has to elevate higher. But it shouldn't be an issue if the devs buff killers aswell. All my suggestions are buffing solo survivors in one category: EFFICENCY ON GENS. Which means faster gens. Basically fast gens like versing swf. Once this is on a even ground between solo and swf, devs could do some serious changes in terms of gen speed OVERALL, effecting solo AND swf at the same time with the same impact.
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Who was doing sabotage plays anyway?? I RARELY saw anyone doing this. I versed this only once in the past 2 years or so. And MOST OF THE time sabotage squads are all dying at the end since they aren't on gens. It's a buff for solos... But without a real impact on matches. U need at least 3 people doing this while ONE single survivor pumps 5 gens.
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you don’t need to know the exact centimetre someone is. The swf compass strategy with callouts that I have created is more than enough and better than kindred in every way, remember kindred is only while hooked for solo queue people. While swf have a perma solution. So it’s not showing more than words then. Gate aures should be nerfed, people need to put in effort swf or not and look for where they are before gens done.
your next point is solo should be blind so they can be sacrificed for swf? I don’t get it. Solo has problems but can have less problems. I also run with a no mic swf sometimes and everyone is coordinated enough without buffs, but need the extra push. Solo won’t have problems if they behave like my no mic team after a while.
only scenario you can’t save a hooked person is if their face camping with no bt on the team, or leather face. Every other scenario only has benefit. It’s odds at red rank is close to 0 and doesn’t make kindred pointless for that sole fact. Even if their rank 20 with higher odds, it’s pointless because it happened to not work that particular game. It’s like saying escaping is pointless because I can’t do it every time. I don’t want to hook save because it doesn’t work 100%.
I stated the devs will buff killers after people are more like swf... that’s what he gets in return. Try asking the devs their plan and why the topic is worded as ( what happened to closing the gap)
people seeing a different map will mean 4 separate servers and people shouldn’t be able to interact with eachother. Never seen another way because it’s broken and no way a killer can chase on 4 maps. A landmark is a loop or location, so you’re saying 4 different maps aka servers.
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I have said it a million times. The only solution to fixing SWF is to give everyone coms and buff killers accordingly. Devs refuse to do this and idk why.
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While you can make perfect callouts to your friends about killer position and map coordinates, having a glowing outline leaves little to the imagination. Then it all comes down to simply how long they take to catch up to you. It's shallow.
The game shouldn't be balanced around something that only takes away. And what it takes away is killer agency. Their list of options dwindle when it comes down to a list of conditions and responses. The killer leaves and finds someone else on a gen. You can see exactly who it is, where, their position, and if they're running back towards you which they won't because you're glowing like the sun. Killers capitalize on mistakes. There are no mistakes with glowing auras.
Even if solo was matched 1 to 1 with swf ability, it can still turn and bite you in the ass. They're not your friend because they loaded in with you. Although alternatiatively I've seen great saves by randos in public games so it's not exclusive to one or the other. You can still not play like ######### even without comms.
Killers without the swf problem are already wildly effective when played to their strengths. Even low tier picks can 4k against an uncoordinated squad. What buffs can you honestly give them that won't throw the scales off even further? Billy is said to be the most balanced killer. He's a one hit down with no cooldown. That's ....fair? But he can consistently make playing swf a chore so it's ok guys.
Here's a definitive answer for totems. You have 4 people and 5 totems. If all 4 people do a single totem, NOED will never activate should one person do a second Totem. Surely everyone can do at least one totem right? You also have 2 perks and an item that show you exactly where totems are. Totems are not protected enough.
The level shifting thing could be client-side. They already have something similar with the moving heads in the Shrine.
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It would be nice to have a Kindred type basekit, without the Killer Aura Reading of course to make it fair.
I'm a solo player and it would be nice to know what everyone else is doing when someone else is on the hook, it'll give us valuable time to either finish a gen or knowing that someone is going for the rescue.
Without the Killer Aura Reading of course.
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I already said a chat wheel would be a good addition but it doesn't help solve the issue as it still takes time to use unlike comms which are on the fly and useful at all times. Try using a wheel when in a chase.
You completely missed the point and dota2 is a bad example as it had the usetbase to allow such things.
When it comes to smaller playerbase there is never a guarantee everyone could speak one language.
Your comment regarding not going to another country is also a bad analogy since yes many do it but they can use certain things to translate easier as they aren't in a rush to do so. I don't know why you felt the nees to bepassive aggressive with the "keep the world small" line.
The fact is doing this will force countries to speak another language and be disadvantaged if they don't. I'm happy it wouldn't affect yourself but you must consider those who it would.
You are advocating players who may have bought the game as it didnt have comms to be disadvantaged due to a small minority of players using it.
Comms itself isn't that strong its what some can do with it that is. It's the knowledge of the group and being highly coordinated which make it so.
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It’s impossible to close the gap. The information solo players have is only as useful as the players receiving that information.
For example you can bring Kindred but still be left on hook because some people just don’t care. Whereas in SWF you’ll always have a buddy to unhook you.
You can take better together to highlight a strategic gen to be rushed, but some people may consider it too risky and just stick to the gens on the edge of the map so that you get caught first.
Basically you could give survivors every information perk in the game but you will never get that same sense of co-operation that you get from a swf because most people don’t care about randoms, they’re in it for theirself.
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It's already the standard in almost every active multiplayer game to have in-game player communication.
The problem of players not speaking the same language is lesser than players not being able to talk to each other at all.
And god knows that players being able to speak to each other has been a problem in dbd for a long while since it was never balanced with that to begin with.
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Do you honestly think the devs care about balance lmfao? Theyre milking the DBD cash cow until it fizzles out, which is a day coming sooner then you would think
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If I may be so bold (and sorry if this isn't my place to say), but why force solo survivors to sacrifice perk slots to close the gap? SWF don't need any perk slots to tell their buddies who's the closest and therefore, who has the right of way for the unhook. 🙂
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SWF get's comms for free, fast information without restraints of requiring to be hooked, injured, or otherwise afflicted.
Solo's require to take a perk, or multiple perks to even get an inkling of information that comms gives.
Gotta be blunt here, but at what point will dev's start to look into adding an in game voice communication for solo play. There has been many great ideas of adding a proximity chat instead, which would still be weaker than SWF, but could add to the atmosphere. Obviously both mechanics would have the option to mute other and/or all other players.
Then with the voice chat, you no longer have to balance around solo. Just balance around SWF, and if people don't use the mechanics availble to them that's tough luck for them.
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There are many more which don't have the option than have it.
The amount of red which are problematic like it or not is a minority in this game.
Only 3 or 4 man can fall under the banner which not all use comms or are even that good.
To say less people can't speak a language is a made up statistic. You don't know how many this would affect so its pure speculation. What we do know for certain though is it WOULD affect those no matter the number.
Players can have an I formed choice to purchase the game right now as it is. The same can't be said for those tha5 wpudlnt have a choice and be disadvantaged.
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1 - This is blatantly false. Dbd is the rare exception to the multiplayer game rule of being able to talk with other players. If you know any others I'd be able to easily list twice as many that have communication through my personal experience alone.
2 - You're being hypocritical. You claim that adding player communication would ostracize those who don't speak English in your 4th point, because they are a minority as English is an extremely wide-spread language. But you then ignore red ranks, (when I think you mean high-level players since rank is meaningless), because they are also a minority.
3 - This is accurate.
4 - Same as 2. You can't claim that a change can't be made because it would affect a minority of people and then ignore a different minority of people when people want a change made.
5 - I'm going to assume some of what you meant here, so correct me if I'm wrong. Player's who aren't native English speakers would be able to play the game through the same way that they've always been. Adding the option for players to communicate wouldn't make the game less accessible. That makes no sense.
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you keep going off topic on purpose. You’re on a campaign to keep the game balanced for low rank survivors and so killer never gets buffed.
again It’s just while hooked so there’s no gap widen and that’s not shallow if the goal is to balance. it saves a stupid callout like north west or I’m at shack.
Theres already no mistakes in a good swf and you still say it without killer buffs in mind.
You can play near perfect without comms as stated by me with no mic squad. Randoms at red rank will learn or die and you can try in another game. Don’t get that point atm.
Killers are already wildly effective lower rank and that’s the problem. Higher rank their effective too from idiots. They need support and they will learn especially as dbd slows down on new players getting the game in a year or so. Gen speed will never be touched but with swf balance killers can get power buffs or better blocking perks etc.
totems... how would you even know your team is doing totems and you would be running around looking from various examples given. It just doesn’t matter to you. Again it’s for swf likeness sake, but you want non swf to not be equal.
You cant level shift a shack though as you need to interact with it.... it is not going to ever be considered. But it will only work if objects disappear after a certain distance, which is annoying and disorientating for everyone, ruining loop plans etc
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Ok so I think the game maybe doing that because whenever someone is being chased they light up. Its subtle and I'm still unsure if it's a 100% thing but it's something that may exist. If someone knows please confirm or deconfirm it.
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As I already explained, pro players, played on SEA-region servers who usually either play in US or EU but naturally in EU due to the concentration of better players there, guess what the people who follow streams did? They did go to SEA server as well and played there too so there were people playing together, communicating across continents.
Again people will communicate with each other if you give them the opportunity, you can say that it isn't so because there might be the chance that it happens but this does not make it so. When you read for example through the forums you should know that it is a very common thing on consoles to invite everyone in the lobby (survivor side) into a party and use voicechat.
Using a chat wheel is also not as difficult as you want to make it sound like. In Dota2, a game which requires, a whole lot more of APM than DBD ever will, people are able to select the fitting taunt during fights or spray stuff like "LOSER" on the floor in order to mock enemies who just made a mistake. So please do not act as if in DBD it will be impossible to do so during a chase when we can spend seconds during each chase in order to tbag another player.
Yes I will consider those who it would affect as well as they might finally come to their senses and try to learn another language which is something that will benefit them in the long run. Communication is not that hard, when you struggle to communicate with certain people you can look up stuff for that online and just learn a few phrases so you can talk with them. "Killer on ME; x / 19 Killer names / Do Gens / I go for unhook / Open Gates" These few words will already help you bigtime.
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I asked them that exact question and they answered it on stream a while ago. They think it's too much information to give solos for free.
I still don't agree with their decision making, I've found it harder and harder to play survivor without friends. I don't even use voice comms when playing with friends, but I at least know that someone will get me off hook.
I hope they'll reconsider cause giving survivors Kindred basekit, I won't mind if they nerf the killer aura reading to 8 meters, so people can know if killer is camping, but not give too much information where they're going and such.
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Yes most of the time people only speak one language and that is it, you are totally super special and nobody from italy, spain, france, russia, portugal, turkey, sweden, norway and finland speaks any other language but their native language. 🤦♀️
So bizarre that I can have a talk with SWF coming from these countries in end game chat but communication would totally not be possible at all.
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I really wish I had your level of patience. Some of these users drive me nuts and y'all really deserve more credit for braving these forums and for even responding.
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Mostly some of more recent games have built in voice chat which encourage it but if you look at them all over the years you would realise its not the majority of all the multiplayer games. Even the ones that do have issues with playerbase sizes. Take F13th a game with voice chat which had major issues and complaints on the forum about players not speaking English and lots asking for them to restrict the regions more. Unfortunately it wasn't possible as they numbers spoke for themselves.
Look at France as another example. Statistically only 32% of the population speak English.
You cannot take pro players into account in esports games as its basically a business for them. They play in a league where of course speaking a neutral language is good for what they can earn from it.
Take DBD with comms they can say he is going left or right when in a chase around a loop helping, they placed a trap at x spot, they went into stealth, killer left the gen at the harvester, pallet is gone at the shack or a building or any part of the map, I have x perk etc etc. The amount of info comms can give is never going to be the same with a chat wheel. While nice it is just a way to say a very small amount and will not come anywhere close to closing the gap.
What adding comms then does is cut off what the game is for a lot of players. Since over 50% are solo you remove the ability to play how they always have and why they bought the game due to your own thoughts and needs. The game is about help others or not. It's not a proper team game but a use others for your own benefit.
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Saying voice coms shouldn't be added, because people speak different languages doesn't make any sense. If all I got on dbd were people who spoke Mandarin I wouldn't say, get rid of voice coms. I'm not gonna let others not have fun because of a language barrier.
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You are a hero
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No you are the one making stuff up, check numbers. https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_en.pdf you can follow this link and read through it. Have a good read.
7k hrs in dota, having a friendlist full of people from the countries you mentioned and a longtime active in the esports scene. Sorry language barrier just isn't really a thing anymore especially not around younger people who are the ones that are the majority of gamers.
Yes CS 1.6 is a very recent game. America's Army, Arma2, COD4MW (the original one and not the remaster), Day of Defeat, DCS, Dead Island, Dirty Bomb, Dota, L4D i think the list is long enough to show that voice chat has been around for a very long time and is not new to gaming at all.
It is 39% in france btw most of the time and it also begs the question what means do you speak english? Good enough to talk about everything maybe not, a few words that you actually need in dbd? Pls. Parisiens will mostly immediately talk to you in english for example when you start talking in broken french.
Dude it doesn't have to be 100% navy seal squad with randoms, basic talk are already better than most perks offered by the game and will help to coordinate a team.
Sorry when you do not want to talk to anyone and have a complete solo experience, voice chat mostly comes with a mute function so you can be the lone wolf.
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I have no problem with a totem counter but I don't think it should be part of the base kit.
May not seem like much but it could potentially add a lot of benefit for it just be a standard base utility.
Putting it on something like small games would be a lot better it would give more value to the perk considering the perks mean purposes basically become cleansing totems. It will also benefit the potential for various meta as if you add too many things to the base kit elements you shut down the need for purpose and make the matter that was already stagnating stuck a lot more.
Why run small games you have a totem counter run defensive strike, borrowed time and dead hard instead.
Why run bonds, empathy or aftercare you have base kindred run defensive strike, borrowed time and dead hard instead.
That's the problem with adding perks into the baseline he doesn't actually help diversity amongst build instead it pigeonholed everything into using one perk setup because you have all the other information for free.
Survive with friends also fall under the same benefit. No point in contesting who is going to go for the save we can all see you who is closest to the hook plus we could use our extra comm information so we are a massively ahead of Solo play
What's the point of a discussing how many totems we've destroyed we have a counter so we don't need to keep count but unlike solo we can actually pinpoint where we last will be saw them if we can't break it ourselves.
Yes solo survivors will benefit from however so will survive with friends it wouldn't shorten the gap it will probably still remain the exact same size. Solo survivors will just be brought to the level of old survivor friends whilst new survivor with friends will become even stronger
Post edited by Volfawott on0 -
I feel like more icons would be useful in bridging the gap. Such as icons for Generators and Totems to replace the regular icon whenever someone is on either thing. Slap on a bit of red so you can still see that they are injured. Have the regular injured icon animated so when being chased it appears to be running. Remove the red when an uninjured person is in a chase.
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This is necessary imo. The biggest difference between solo and swf is time efficiency. As Long as this is a huge difference we will not see improvements Balance-wise. So yeah, more HUD icons are very welcomed.
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