Does anyone remember "The Depip Squad" or the experiment they were doing?
Just took a walk down memory lane and was curious how many people recall Marth88's old experiment.
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There's been some minor balance changes since then but it's still pretty accurate for current times. None of the changes since then were significant enough to invalidate them yet.
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Minor?
Deep Wounds became a thing. DS was completely reworked. Freddy and Doc were completely reworked. Nurse and Spirit were changed slightly. Nurse had her add-ons reworked. Pallet vacuum was removed. Ruin was reworked. We have a new meta featuring Pop, Corrupt, Nemesis/PWYF, Spirit Fury/Enduring. And next update we are getting a sabo rework and toolbox nerf.
Things are VERY different now than they were then. Depip squad experiment isn't even relevant anymore. The only thing it still kind of proves is that 4 man SWF is very powerful and that gen speeds are too fast, which you really don't even need an experiment to prove.
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Deep Wounds is laughable and not worth mentioning. DS is still way too strong and it's rework has it still sitting as the best perk in the game. Nurse and Spirit nerfs aren't weakening the survivors so that's pretty irrelevant to my base point about survivors still being near just as strong. Pallet Vacuum was probably the closest thing to being significant but still hasn't stopped the amount of loops a survivor can make. Ruin change just like Nurse and Spirit is an improvement for the survivor side not for killers so also irrelevant to my base point. Corrupt didn't get improved, it was just the next best option after Ruin. Pop being more relevant isn't negating the games balance. Nemesis/PWYF isn't significant enough to change balance. Spirit Fury/Enduring was already around back then. Sabo rework coming is a buff to survivors, not nerf, so again, irrelevant to my base point. Toolbox nerf is nice but irrelevant in terms of the Marth experiment as they didn't use any items for the challenge.
I think you are missing the entire premise of my post. My post is not that the game hasn't had many changes, which is what you keep going towards. My post is pointing out there hasn't been any significant enough changes to better balance the game for killers specifically, that would make Marths experiment less able to be repeated again. The point is that survivors are still near just as strong.
His experiment is currently completely repeatable and entirely relevant. The nerfs to killers or killer perks you mentioned have even made it easier to repeat as those top tier killers were the ones that came closest to giving them any challenge.
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All the things I listed are pretty MAJOR changes to the game. Things are very different now than they were before. That was my point. Nothing that changed was minor. You especially can't argue the Ruin change was minor. That's a big massive change to the game right there.
"My post is pointing out there hasn't been any significant enough changes to better balance the game for killers specifically."
Oh yes there totally have. Pallet vacuum for one. Increased speed on hook/kicking pallets or gens. Buffs to killer perks to make them more meta (eg. Pop). Killer is way easier now than it ever has been. The only major nerf to killers has been the Ruin change, but overall they have been buffed quite a lot. DS change did not at all make it stronger. DS was obscene before. You literally couldn't even pick up the obsession unless a hook was 5 feet away. And you could be hit by DS at any time by any other survivor without any tell that they have it, so long as they wiggle enough. You can easily play around the current DS. Just don't tunnel a survivor off the hook, or slug them.
Or, if you are Spirit/Nurse, just eat the DS and catch them in 10 seconds. I literally just had a game the other day where a David, fresh off his hook, decides to jump into a rear locker in the basement. I had slugged his rescuer, and I was going to slug him but since he did that I just ate the DS, and then caught him in a single phase. He was dead at that point. It's really REALLY not that hard to play around given the circumstances (because yes, there are times it may SEEM overpowered if the gates are open and the guy was just on the hook, but that is a very specific circumstance and at this point you lost the game anyway, so it really is moot).
I can't take anyone seriously that argues new DS is better than old DS. It's not. You can play around it. You can't really play around old DS. You could juggle survivors, that was literally it and that was an AWFUL option to counter it.
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About to be on my 6th month of playing the game, and I've actually done plenty of research from the history of the game to see why the game is in the current state it's in. Of course in this journey of research I found out about Marth88's depip squad. From what I gathered, it really goes to show how powerful a 4 man swf can be. If all they focus on is just gens, then there's not much the killer can do about it. You can be a legend in the 1v1, but dbd is not about the 1v1. Of course this was common knowledge to the playerbase, but the Devs acted like they didn't know, and pretended that swf didn't throw the game off balance, which is why Marth did the experiment in the first place.
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"All the things I listed are pretty MAJOR changes to the game. Things are very different now than they were before. That was my point. Nothing that changed was minor. You especially can't argue the Ruin change was minor. That's a big massive change to the game right there."
You are missing my point again. I did NOT argue the Ruin change was minor at all.
I am NOT saying the game hasn't changed a lot. I AM saying the games balance hasn't changed much.
Those are two very different things.
"Increased speed on hook/kicking pallets or gens."
Extremely minor.
"Buffs to killer perks to make them more meta (eg. Pop)."
You mean literally just Pop, not etc.
"The only major nerf to killers has been the Ruin change, but overall they have been buffed quite a lot."
List the buffs, there aren't a lot.
"DS change did not at all make it stronger."
Also not what I said, at all. What I said was that it is still very strong and one of the best perks in the game. Those are two very different things.
"You can easily play around the current DS. Just don't tunnel a survivor off the hook, or slug them."
Wrong. Any killer playing regularly at rank 1 with many hours will tell you the amount of times they are hit with DS when not tunneling at all and how abused the perk is.
"Or, if you are Spirit/Nurse, just eat the DS and catch them in 10 seconds. I literally just had a game the other day where a David, fresh off his hook, decides to jump into a rear locker in the basement. I had slugged his rescuer, and I was going to slug him but since he did that I just ate the DS, and then caught him in a single phase. He was dead at that point. It's really REALLY not that hard to play around given the circumstances"
Yeah...on Nurse or Spirit...we are talking the average game with every other killer that is not able to do that.
"I can't take anyone seriously that argues new DS is better than old DS. It's not."
Because that isn't what I said at all. You aren't reading closely at what I am typing before you jump to responding.
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I'd agree that the experiment still has some validity. But I think minor grossly understates the changes made.
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"I am NOT saying the game hasn't changed a lot. I AM saying the games balance hasn't changed much."
Yes the balance has change a LOT. Hence why I said that playing killer today is way way better than playing killer in the past. It is EASIER aside from the Ruin change which was a pretty big hit to that.
Survivors have far less super safe options. Exhaustion perks were nerfed, particularly Balanced which changed things a lot. There are fewer pallets, and less of the remaining pallets are safe.
Your statement is just flat out incorrect. Sorry.
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It is way better than in the past, but not much better than when the depip squad took place.
"Survivors have far less super safe options. Exhaustion perks were nerfed, particularly Balanced which changed things a lot. There are fewer pallets, and less of the remaining pallets are safe."
Survivors have a myriad of second chance opions and are extremely safe. Marths expirement success had nothing to do with Balanced Landing. The amount of pallets has also not been lowered.
"Your statement is just flat out incorrect. Sorry."
Your statements are flat out incorrect. You have a skewed perception of the games current balance.
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The same issues from back then are still in the game now.
With the removal of Ruin the gen speed issues have become more pronounced.
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I remember the devs completely snubbing Marth and all the work he did.
Hundreds of recorded games and the devs did nothing.
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Any lobby with 3 or more toolboxes is a de-pip squad by default. Dodge 'em.
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The only thing that annoys me about that is that it's like showing an esports level team vs your normal player. All it proves is that a team who is good at the game is good at the game. Who could have guessed?
Hell, I bet a high level Nurse player using a sweaty af slug build with potential Noed for backup could probably 4k 100 games in a row or at least be really close to it. Once again all it would prove is that a high level player using high level stuff would do well.
Edit: Heck there's even some minor examples. Scott had 50 4k's as Oni as well as 32 4k's as speed limiter Bubba. Marth had 60 4k's as Clown. Admittedly the Marth games were from his hardcore series (meaning low rank) and the Bubba was not in a row perse. I'm not sure about the Oni ones, all he said was they're from 3 seperate streams, not sure if they were in a row or he played others in between?
Honestly, I'd love to see a depip squad go against the hardcore sweaty/sluggy nurse for 100 games on a neutral map, playing 5 or so games as a warm-up so both sides understand each others playstyles and perks. That would be far more valuable when it comes to determining balance, also far more entertaining a watch.
As a note, I do agree that at perfect performance, survivors are better than killer but using the Marth experiment as solid proof is silly when the majority of players aren't even close to that level in the first place.
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but back then ruin was still a thing sooo it is still valid
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"DS is still way too strong and it's rework has it still sitting as the best perk in the game."
Don't tunnel and you don't need to worry about DS.
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I think the point he was making is that despite various buffs and nerfs, the game is essentially in the same place. I know that sounds ridiculous, especially considering instant heals, DS and vacuum changes but here me out.
Back then, looping was stupid strong. Dead Hard, DS, Adrenaline and BT were all meta. Plus, Killers had to vault slower and true infinite's existed. Today we do not have that, which is 100% better for the health of the game. Today, loops are generally shorter and they do not have as many pallets.
However, gens go by much faster. So, the Killer has about the same amount of time to work with. I think that is what they were saying, is that while certain aspects have changed, the core time limit has not.
Personally, I would like to re-do the de-pip squad in today's climate. I do think parts are still relevant, but other parts are super outdated.
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It does not matter, nobody actually plays like that so why adjust for it.
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You never played killer then on anything beyond rank 10
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