Why do killers try to justify toxicity?
When a killers toxic its because "they had a few bad games" i have seen that excuse thrown around on the fourms and it just dosent make sense. Why try to justify killers toxicity by blaming it on survivors?
By toxic i mean nodding your head while facecamping or playing insidous bubba with a mori
If your gonna reply please dont call me a survivor main (i play both sides equally) or mention my username (my names just a meme
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The same way survivors try to justify tbagging at pallets and windows and dancing in the exit gates.
People are douches everywhere.
I for one only tunnel object of obsession users. I know thats what they want but i don't care. They will die.
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This is definitely not the main reason I experience. I would rather guess this is an excuse to kill discussion about it, because they get bored. The more common reason I hear is "idc". And that fits to a lot of people playing this game.
But beneath that, why doesn't it make sense? If you get ***** one game by another by toxic survivors and expect the whole community to be like that (which is correct by of the time) then it would be comprehensible.
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It dosent make sense cause you arnt being toxic to the people who were toxic to you if your toxic to the same survivors who were toxic towards you that fine go ahead bu tyour being toxic to other survivors who didnt do anything wrong
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I don't tunnel unless you bring a key or use OoO. Besides that im almost never toxic as killer even if all4 escape. Just don't be toxic.
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Same reason people demonise their political opponents, or different sports team fans, or people who drive a different type of car. “People from X group are BAD but people like me are good” essentially.
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It's more a human thing than a killer thing - I suppose it's just a lot easier to do as killer because you can take out your bad mood quite violently on the opposition in a way that you can't so much as survivor. And the reason people try to justify it is because no one likes to be held responsible for their bad behaviour. It's easier and more comfortable if they can rationalise it to themselves and others instead of being forced to confront the fact that they're just a jerk.
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Using a mori and camping with insidious isn’t toxic though, using perks, offerings and a strategy (even if an annoying one) isn’t toxic.
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Moris and camping arnt toxic thats correct, but most insidious bubbas do things that are toxic like nodding there head or letting everyone bleed out if they somehow get 4 people slugged
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-SWF are the majority of all games now
-Comms means hooked survivors can tell each other who we are going for from 60m+ away and can do gauranteed tug-of-war for gens with the killer where every second you keep them off one gen is a second wasted and you're forced to yield gens.
-Pallets are every 10m in some maps and there's enough pallets for each survivor to break maybe 8 each per map, where all killers except nurse and ranged killers are locked into extremely long pallet chases. SWF also tell each other when you decide not to break pallets so they know areas of the map are still usable. Nothing we do can actually stop you reaching the next pallet except specifically playing nurse and ranged killers, the rest are all useless and forced into long chases.
-Body-blocking with DS and Mettle of man / borrowed time active so you can't punish unhooking and if you go for the unhooked survivor they body block and fire DS anyway since everyone takes that perk now
-Anti-tunneling perks like DS are allowed to stack because it's convenient, so survivors can stack DS on you so you're banned from getting hooks even during EGC Where you would think tunneling is definitively impossible
-New sabotage rework means that you sabotage hooks in 2.5s and even if we hit you it does nothing to stop your timer and you are guaranteed to get the sabotage anyway.
-Killers get no points if they do anything to you at the gates. If you leave but get hit at the same time, we get no points or anything for it. Compare this to survivors who now get coddled and are awarded 1000 points just for dying as obsession, or points just for vaulting.
-One of the only killers with enough mobility to cover most of the maps, Nurse, got nerfed and now every killer with mobility has an extreme giveaway (e.g. the nightmare visibly makes gens bleed before he teleports to them, and hag has a maximum range and has to pop up in your face before even deciding to teleport)
-Killers without mobility got shafted hard by the nerf to Hex Ruin and we have almost nothing now to truly delay gen-rushing, if we engage in chasing at all the gen-rush happens irrespectively and low-mobility killers like shape just can't physically reach gens to use things like pop goes the weasel in time. The one or two perks that kind of still help are locked behind DLC or waiting weeks / months for the shrine to offer it.
The game exceptionally favors survivors and SWF has become the norm but the game has not been changed in the slightest to reflect it. That's why killers justify toxicity. There's no incentive to rank up at all, it's SWF All over the place now and killers have a tougher time ranking up compared to survivors anyway, so detterence like facecamping causing pip loss is pointless because the rank system itself is pointless.
Post edited by Traslogan on12 -
Alright, let's break this down.
- SWF are the majority of all games now
A SWF group does not call for hook camps, tunneling, nodding at hooks or hitting people on hook constantly after a hook, that is just uncalled for. Being a SWF is not bad manners(not even that bad manners should invoke bad manners from the other side, but let's not touch that topic yet.).
- Comms means hooked survivors can tell each other who we are going for from 60m+ away and can do gauranteed tug-of-war for gens with the killer where every second you keep them off one gen is a second wasted and you're forced to yield gens.
Once again, not a reason to act in a way that is bad manners or taunt survivors over your experience with them, they're not causing bad manners.
- Body-blocking with DS and Mettle of man active so you can't punish unhooking and if you go for the unhooked survivor they body block and fire DS anyway since everyone takes that perk now
Once again, that is strats and you need to learn how to work around it, still not a reason to bad manners at a survivor.
- Pallets are every 10m in some maps, where all killers except nurse and ranged killers are locked into extremely long pallet chases. SWF also tell each other when you decide not to break pallets so they know areas of the map are still usable.
Once again, not a reason to act in bad manners with survivors, being frustrated with how comms works and other situations like that is not reason to treat people badly.
- Anti-tunneling perks like DS are allowed to stack because it's convenient, so survivors can stack DS on you so you're banned from getting hooks even during EGC Where you would think tunneling is definitively impossible
This list is getting repetitive, DS is not an enabler of bad manners from the killers.
- New sabotage rework means that you sabotage hooks in 2.5s and even if we hit you it does nothing to stop your timer and you are guaranteed to get the sabotage anyway.
I would like to see this actually happening in video, but at the same time it is not reason to once again, start aggressively nodding at survivors and repetitively hitting them on hook.
- Killers get no points if they do anything to you at the gates. If you leave but get hit at the same time, we get no points or anything for it.
Once again, not a reason for bad manners as a killer, so far we've been given no reasons with this list.
- One of the only killers with enough mobility to cover most of the maps, Nurse, got nerfed and now every killer with mobility has an extreme giveaway (e.g. the nightmare visibly makes gens bleed before he teleports to them, and hag has a maximum range and has to pop up in your face before even deciding to teleport)
Again, not reason to be a toxic killer with survivors. I guarantee you, being toxic to survivors will stay the same when map sizes are touched up, and a good high skill nurse can still easily snowball a game these days.
- Killers without mobility got shafted hard by the nerf to Hex Ruin and we have almost nothing now to truly delay gen-rushing, if we engage in chasing at all the gen-rush happens irrespectively and low-mobility killers like shape just can't physically reach gens to use things like pop goes the weasel in time. The one or two perks that kind of still help are locked behind DLC or waiting weeks / months for the shrine to offer it.
That is also not a reason to be toxic to anyone as a Killer, and regarding the last paragraph, it has been verified again and again that facecamping survivors, nodding aggressively at them and hitting them on the hook and tunneling them down most of the time does not slow down the work done on gens, indeed, it might end up being the reason why you are losing games so often to SWF: You're wasting 2 whole minutes on a single survivor hooked to ensure their death, just enough time to get quite a few gens done and even start getting to the exit gates.
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So the basis for your counterpoint is that toxicity requires toxicity for someone who will be toxic to do so?
My point is the game leans so heavily into favoring survivors, especially with more than half of all games now being SWF, that killers have lost the fun in the game. If we don't get like 10 hooks and max out our chasing score and farm you for deviousness points, all while somehow keeping gens alive for the gen pip, we can't rank up at all. It's very easy to double-rank-up as killer if you can get the first rank-up point, but very tough to get the first point in general. For some reason you are running with this assumption that toxicity only occurs because other people are being toxic, which then begs the question why were those people being toxic, and your argument loops around.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying "I'm being toxic for these reasons", rather "I can see why these reasons make other killers toxic". I'm mostly done with this game, it's just not fun to play killers at all anymore. I don't waste 2 mins camping a hook, this isn't DBD 1.0 from 4 years back.
The fun of the game leans massively into the survivors now, SWF might not blatantly win that many more games (9% more or something iirc), but it can very quickly cripple the fun for the killer. that is why killers justify toxicity, I bring up DS a lot because it is a very prime example of the issues. DS is ranked as the most popular survivor perk for a reason; everyone takes it and it stacks for some reason despite being built to counter tunneling supposedly.
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It's a psychological effect I guess. I'm not a psychologist but as a person that had passed through that I can try to elaborate:
As a killer you get treated badly a couple times in a row and in order to adapt you counter toxicity with toxicity. Yes, I know, it's stupid because in the next game there will be new players (in this game in particular is very common to find at least one toxic survivor in every match tho). But, and this is a big BUT, this is an emotional response not a logical response. The part of your brain you use for math is not involved in all of this, so trying to get a logical reason to the emotional response and expect that it makes sense is not the best idea. It won't make sense if you don't start from the correct first fact, emotions are the root cause. If we were robots without emotions we will not have problems with toxicity.
The thing is you will build up some bad emotions while playing killer:
You will be bullied, undermined, disrespected and annoyed pretty easy if you are not prepared. Also you are alone in all that emotions, you can't blame others of your lost match, you are the entire killer team. You are forced to run through the entire game too, if it could exist a surrender button to quickly move on from in-game toxicity this will not happen as much, because you can deny something from the people that is hurting you. But here, you can't.
All of this builds up one game after another and if you don't stop, eventually it will explode. The overflow of all of that will explode on you and other 4 unlucky players that will suffer from a game that has no win condition for the killer besides ruining your experience. The killer won't be alone suffering because now other 4 will understand how toxicity feels.
It's simple, you get bad emotions and you explode with some group sooner or later. This can happen mid game or in the lobby, but it usually happen in game. You encounter someone, you read some survivor behaviour as a hint of toxicity and at that moment something in your mind says "sorry bud but we up here have no more stress to let you endure through this another time, we will tag with your other brain..." and all the rest is rage and blind revenge.
Somethings to have into account that I have seen "reasoned" and don't make any sense:
It's just a character spamming crouching
To anyone with a bit of knowledge about videogames crouching have been the main tool to disrespect your oponent, very popular in fighting games where some players want to have a psychological fight too. It's an offense because has the purpose of offend and everyone know the meaning. Even if people wouldn't know the meaning the first time, they would learn what it means as babies do, with context.
If you try to offend someone, expect at some point a defensive response. The emotional intelligence require to hold emotions back and learn to ignore people opinions is not a given. You have to improve on that. Is not part of any free educational program I have heard.
You don't get anything out of playing like that
Yes you do get something. You get multiple things, first you vent like a steam engine. All out, like vomit (it could take multiple times). You also get support from others, either by supporting the idea that toxicity is awful or by directly empathizing with your situation because there are people out there that understand what a lot of killers have to pass through.
Just ignore [X] by [Y]
This is just useless. To ignore something on purpose first you have to don't ignore it to recognise what you have to ignore. Also isolate from post game chat besides I can understand to close it, I think it hides people out there that will dedicate some kind words after match. Social support is important.
Take a break
This one phrase is funny. A lot of people use videogames as their "take a break" method. When your "take a break" method needs a "take a break" it's not that easy. Your mind will think that it's just a game and you need a "take a break" match. So you will enter qeue for another round. Sometimes this strategy works and that makes an skinner box effect that encourages you to always qeue after a bad match because you could get a good one.
Now some tips if anyone out there suffers from this:
- I present you MEME GAMES.
The idea is broke all the imposed game rules and use a match as a sandbox you will have near zero toxicity because anyone wanting to say "gg ez" can't even remotely believe you were even trying. You can do a lot of fun stuff without stressing out about objectives. Try it out.
The limit is your imagination, you can pick any killer and do funny things with them: dance, arcade games, role playing... whatever you want.
The best part is everyone will enjoy the game because no one lose and that will reflect in post game chat where you will find some kind words, people laughing at the joke you did in form of meme game and if you explain what you have passed, they will support you. Because Dbd players are good people when they are not try harding. This will remember your emotional side that not every one in this player base want to start personal attack wars every second.
- I recommend switching sides too. You will find a tilted killer, guaranteed. Play the game normal and tell him something kind, you will feel good about this and maybe you will get some kind words back.
- Come to read the forums, there are a lot of people complaining. You are not alone, this game makes people crazy if played alone (even with friends can be dangerous to your mood).
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Either you're trying to say that the fact you're not having fun justifies rude and ill-mannered behaviour towards the other players, or you've misunderstood what toxicity means in this context. In case of the latter, it's best if we clarify that toxicity, as is being discussed in this thread, was defined by the OP as "nodding your head while facecamping or playing insidous bubba with a mori" (the latter of which was later amended to "nodding there head or letting everyone bleed out if they somehow get 4 people slugged"). In other words, we're not talking about strategic behaviours like camping and tunnelling, we're talking about behaviours that do nothing for the killer strategically and are only employed to hurt or anger the survivor players.
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You're very good at starting bait threads.
I'm always surprised to see so many people responding so seriously.
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How is it a bait? I see that excuse thrown around on the fourms so im making a discussion about it
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Nodding is toxic?
Well okay, nodding isn't.
But you're facecamping, and it's not toxic at all, but once you start nodding, then it's toxic?
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Yes and I still think what I said is relevant. Killers are at a distinct disadvantage, everything we are meant to be able to do has been countered heavily, everyone can run DS and borrowed time and mettle of man and we're left getting deranked just because DS fired on us. Killers get crippled by SWF with comms and how survivors have an extremely strong meta that punishes and negates everything, and thus I believe my points contribute to why killers give up and end up doing things like insidious-bubba and whatnot. They have no incentive to play seriously and get their rank up, they get 1 achievement once for maxing their rank and there's nothing else ever again except longer waiting times. Survivors get to meme on killers, so killers just end up giving up and meme'ing back.
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Let me show everyone here how to let a bait thread die.
:) bye!
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So just to be clear... if you understand what is meant by toxicity in this context, then you are saying that the fact that you're not having fun justifies behaving unkindly towards other people?
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Wow what a strong argument! Last bait i made was in January when i clamied killers have second chance perks like enduring, spirit and for some reasone that thread came back to life recently. I genuinely wanna know what makes you think this is a bait? Just because im not a killer main dosent mean its a bait
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Nodding is fine if your just following the survivor and do it as a meme but while facecamping its kinda an equivlent to teabagging after a pallet stun imo
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Killers not having fun with normal gameplay or having difficulty ranking still does not justify bad behavior within a game. None of those factors makes it a reason to be toxic to other players in any way, shape, or form; even less so when it starts even being a strategy thing and much more of a behavior as a person thing.
If someone is frustrated with the game, they should leave it, they should go do something else, they should learn to cope healthily with things rather than discount on others their rage and frustration. There is a reason if someone is a person that lashes out at everyone around them when they're angry and are unable to hold themselves in check makes them insufferable and nobody wants to be around them.
Edit: As Fibijean has asked you already, if you claim to understand this post, does that mean you sign under malicious behavior towards survivors because someone is frustrated? What does that say about you as a person?
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People are either toxic because they came here to be toxic, or they are toxic because something has changed in their experience of the game that has prompted them to consider it fair and warranted. I believe the fact the game so severely favors survivors is a large part of that, that is what I'm saying.
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Sure, but neither are toxic.
If they were, a lot more reports would actually be valid.
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I mean, if people get extremely mad at this or any game, instead of ruining others experience they could instead just quit the game and smash something by their own. Nobody will care and at that point you have aggression or emotional problems anyways and should get help tbh.
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Well.. I'm sorry to hear that. @angematias basically beat me to anything I wanted to say: someone having a bad day never justifies them taking it out on other people - by very definition of the word, as it is undeserved and therefore unjust. There is a difference between a feeling or impulse being understandable or explainable, and the resulting action being justified. Whether they consider it fair or warranted is irrelevant (at least if you believe in objective morality, as I do - if you happen not to, we may just need to agree to disagree.)
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Sometimes you need to take out your frustration on innocent players. I had a game as Pig where all four survivors dead harded into the exit gates and denied me a single kill all due to that dumb perk, so I went into my next game with double pink addons spirit. I'm not proud of doing that but I just needed to let off some steam. I have no idea why people do the camping leatherface builds though, that sounds boring as ######### for everyone involved.
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If you genuinely want to have a discussion and aren't just trying to start a fight, it's not. Especially recently, a lot of people tend to get actual bait threads confused with those that are simply controversial or emotionally charged.
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yeah that's by logic. Being "revenge-toxic" isn't necessarily a rational reaction. And you can't wait until you get the same group back into your lobby. Just expecting that the next group is equally toxic and deserves it
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"Why do Survivors try to justify toxicity?"
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Nobody deserves toxicity, even the people that were toxic to you.
When you stoop to their level of bad behavior, you lose any moral highground.
"They started it" is not a valid reason, and should be left in preschool where it belongs.
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Both sides do im just curious about the argument "they had a few bad games" that i see on the fourms
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It's not just killers, it's both sides that have toxic people.
This game has also created an atmosphere where both sides have been conditioned that toxicity is going to be in like every third game or so. Then when they see it, they bring that reaction in to the next game.
I also think we have gotten out of hand with what we label as toxic. I mean if we recognize, tunneling, camping, moris, as legitimate tactics.
So must we recognize body blocks, hook sabos, loops as well.
The best thing we could do is just play the game for your own win conditions. And respect the other person right to do the same. Don't like their tactics, send a gg and move on.
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This is probably one of the actual non reactionary and sensible responses to this thread. If this community eventually learns that acting with kindness as a whole would bring much less toxicity to it as a whole, we would have a much healthier forum as well. However I do worry that people haven't learnt how to separate their frustration and how they act upon it, it can make them do things that are considered bad manners in the game and then they try to rationalize or justify it.
It's not so much an issue with the game as it is with how people deal with their own emotions.
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Both sides are equally toxic. My thread isnt really about killers being more toxic its more about the argument "they had a few bad games" and they act like it justifies there toxicity
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You are probably the only fourm member I've seen who only has 12 posts but isnt a bait account. Most account with not alot of posts are just bait accounts
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It will never change though. SWF are toxic because they know if you do well they can quit, it won't hurt their team's ranks, and as SWF they are more likely to win the next game together anyway and get back their tiny rank loss (and the ban timer runs out before the game ends so they'll have basically had zero impact from bailing on a game to reduce killer's scoring). With SWF being toxic, killers are toxic back. DBD has a reputation for its toxic community that is the envy of CSGO players.
I strongly believe the main reason killers end up being toxic, be it through specific mechanics, or just trolling, or outright taking meme builds that are there to make one or two players have a really bad day, is down to the bias towards survivors in the game. The game has changed from 4 people trying to survive to 1 killer trying to get 2 or more kills before 5 gens are done. The average game now, it's 1 gen done per hook and that's if you're finding people very efficiently. DS can be stacked on you during EGC just to cripple your pip progress and prevent any further hooking for the rest of the game. We even derank if you heal, on a directly 1:1 ratio with how many points we get for each injury we inflict.
I hear that people get long queue times now, and it's not down to the ranks anymore. After this month's reset I went up to rank 8 and I get rank 2-4 players in every game, so the matchmaking criteria is very broad now. The queue times are because less and less people want to play Killer, and those that are will either min-max the game and are genuinely god-tier, or they're here to be toxic because the game isn't even resembling a mild balance anymore.
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I am a quite new player.
I also don't like making bait in any way, shape or form.
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Yes, I agree, perfectly stated. We have to remember its just people playing a game.
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I've already explained this but I will do it again. A lot of people play videogames as an escape from their daily stressful rutine. Do they have to stop playing because some group ruined their experience but they can't do the same?
People doesn't care about them but they have to care about others?
Why anyone would follow that logic? Even someone that is not affected by emotions can see that the root cause to a person being toxic is in most cases because the interaction with other that's being toxic. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are indirectly saying that one can be toxic but the other has to "get help". A person emotionaly involved would never follow logic, but that's not even logic it seems like a selfish statement on the line of "I don't care about your problems so don't splash them out at me". Also telling people in a bad mood that you don't care don't help, it probably makes it worse as all the players that don't care will be the target because in a defensive stance, everyone that's not friendly will tend to be seen as an enemy.
And being annoyed by a social interaction doesn't mean you have psychological problems. Having emotions is a problem? Do you think venting some steam out in a videogame is that bad? I mean ... there are limits of course but raging after being teased is not a psychological problem in most cases.
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Because they're a 'power role'? Lmao
In all seriousness. My guess is they had bad games in the past so they go ahead and take it out on the next team. Which is a terrible idea.
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Killers make excuses because they want to think they're better than Survivors who are toxic. They aren't. They're the exact same, and if they played survivor instead of killer they'd probably be doing the same things they hate survivors doing to them.
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I always play fair as killer but a toxic survivor will get the same treatment back. I never start it. If I'm playing toxic it is well justified.
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I have found that playing bar tender in the new map is hilarious and fun.
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If you get in a bad mood because of a game, you should probably stop playing. Doesn't matter if you had a stressful day or not. If you had one, why bothering with even more stress in a game which is supposed to be fun.
If I get in a bad mood of dbd or any game I go outside, get some fresh air or sit on my balcony with a beer and enjoy myself, forgetting about a video game at that point, and not taking "revenge" on other people because you lost.
If you feel stress because of a video game, you're better off leaving or do somethig else. You can always do somethig productive, and who says otherwise can't be serious, or maybe video games are everything in those people's eyes.
You can call me selfish if you want, maybe I am. It would be pretty unwise to not look after yourself at first.
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Because some Killers are actually capable of empathy, we just never get the chance to show it.
At some point the game stopped being scary for survivors and became a schoolyard game of catch me if you can complete with nana-booboos and other tactics deployed purely to annoy. Killers recognize the feels, so they Warren G. Regulate on the wretched survivor base as a whole, then commiserate on the forums. It's quite healthy and beautiful imo.
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The only time I can justify toxicity is if you started it, you t-bagged me, good, now deserve the shittiest experience I can give to you. If I had a bad game before it is NOT justifiable for me to be a dick to you since it's not your fault.
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I have to try out this one as soon as possible haha. I think plague will be a perfect bar tender.
The point is you don't get into that mood because of the game, it's because of the players and how they behave. You have to stop playing because of other people.
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By your definition being toxic is having an annoying playstyle, so the most likely answer is that they are getting very annoyed and want to take out their frustration in a very vigilante way.
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You are correct by denotation, but the dbd community is notorious for muddying phrases with connotative meaning. I think "annoying" would be a better word to use since apparently OP is incorrect in their phrasing, despite the fact that this is the exact phrasing many killers use when referring to vigilante actions such as bringing DS, BNPs, Keys, or a mori.
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