The Massive Grind
We all know Dead by Daylight is known for it's Grind. It's what keeps us playing the game, it's what keeps us going through the same loops over and over again and it's why we love to play this game getting as much points as we possibly can for every single match. It's why farm games exists and why (some) people love it when they pop up because it gives them a chance to get a ton of guaranteed bloodpoints for everyone involved in the match.
With that said, I think The Massive Grind is going to become a real issue real soon. Especially with new players who are just joining the game and started playing.
I calculated the amount of Bloodpoints needed to get every single character to Prestige 3, Level 50 with all Perks obtained. Prepare to see some huge numbers.
Since I want to talk about new players specifically, I'll focus on the one thing most new players will most likely do when they first start playing the game. Get as much teachables as they can as soon as possible. Because they want to have fun builds, they want to be able to survive against Killers or Survivors who have (arguably) better perks than them. So let's just assume this New Player wants to grind for every teachable in the game. First they would need to level every Character to Level 40 at a minimum.
It takes a minimum of around 1,250,000 Bloodpoints to get a single character to Level 40. Let's then multiply that with every character that is currently in DBD, there are currently 21 Survivors and 19 Killers. Bringing the number to a total of 40 Characters to level up to Level 40. Which brings the amount of Bloodpoints you need to 50 Million Bloodpoints. If you show this to a new player, they would find this to be incredibly daunting and tedious.
But I hear you asking, "Kibara! Not every one of those characters has perks that are worth to grab!" And you would be right. So let's just remove the characters whose entire perk deck are not in the current meta, very situational or are just not worth to grab in general (Bolded Perks are up for debate on whether or not they are worth getting):
- Ace Visconti (Up the Ante, Open Handed, Ace in the Hole)
- Quentin Smith (Wake Up!, Vigil, Pharmacy)
- Jeff Johansen (Distortion, Aftercare, Breakdown)
- Ash Williams (Mettle of Man, Buckle Up, Flip Flop)
- Steve Harrington (Babysitter, Camaraderie, Second Wind)
- Zarina Kassir (Red Herring, Off the Record, For the People!)
- The Huntress (Beast of Prey, Territorial Imperative, Hex: Huntress Lullaby)
- The Demogorgon (Surge, Mindbreaker, Cruel Limits)
- The Oni (Zanshin Tactics, Blood Echo, Nemesis)
- The Deathslinger (Gearhead, Dead Man's Switch, Hex: Retribution)
And with that, we eliminated 10 (at least in my opinion) characters that you don't need to grind for because their perks are (arguably) not worth to grind for. That still leaves us with 30 characters whose perks are definitely worth grinding for though. Not only do these 30 characters have useful perks, some of them are downright powerful that you would be nuts to not get as soon as possible.
You would be nuts to not go for Dead Hard or BBQ & Chili from the start of your DBD Career, because these perks really REALLY help out a lot in escaping, chasing, detecting or even giving you free Bloodpoints.
Now that we have that sorted out, how much BP do we have to spend now?
37,500,000.
That is STILL A LOT of Bloodpoints. And to any new players, if they saw this number they would find that incredibly discouraging. Because they see the cap is 1 Million Bloodpoints, so they would think 1 Million is a lot of Bloodpoints.
Oho, but we're not yet done with the Grind Train yet, my friends. It gets even more exponentially expensive. It's like playing an Idle Game except you need to always be active to gain cash.
Let's assume those new players become regular players, and they want to fully prestige their characters. They see those bloody outfits and they want their own characters to look like that. Well, if they want to fully Prestige their characters with level 50 on all of them, lets do the math again then, shall we?
To get a Level 1 Character to Level 50, you need roughly around 1,750,000 Bloodpoints. To get A SINGLE CHARACTER to Prestige 3-50, you need to multiply that number 4 times. Meaning the grand total amount, the MINIMUM amount you need to spend on a single character to fully max out their levels is 7,000,000 Bloodpoints.
Yikes! That's already around 1/6th of the amount of Bloodpoints required to gain every teachable that is worth it in the game.
And of course, per our formula, we need to then multiply that number by 40 (assuming they want to prestige every single character in the game to it's max level). After that, we get a grand total of 280,000,000 Bloodpoints to max out every single character is this damn game.
That is a ridiculously large amount of Bloodpoints. I've played for 1.5k Hours in this game and I've only accumulated around 100,000,000 Bloodpoints myself. But hey, you can argue that it needs to be that expensive because Prestiging a character is Optional. You don't have to do it, which is why it's so expensive, it shows you're willing to put more time into the game. And I get that, it is meant to be more of a reward system for loyal players rather than an actual grind you have to overcome.
But what if you want to experiment with Perk Builds? Something that is a part of the game, and arguably, half the fun of Dead by Daylight to some people (myself included).
You would obviously need every single perk in the game to be able to actually experiment with the perks you want to play with. And here is where the massive numbers come in.
It takes roughly around 35 Million Bloodpoints to get every single perk in the game, and that is already close to the minimum we need to get for every single TEACHABLE that is worth to grab from the various characters in DBD. Reduce the number you need for Level 50, and you still need 33,250,000 Bloodpoints. (Keep in mind, I am assuming this character is Prestige 3, which means they already need to spend 5,250,000 Bloodpoints already on a single character.)
Arguably, you can be conservative and say that since every Survivor plays the same. You only need to get it for one Survivor and you'll be able to play with every perk in the game as much as you fancy.
But what if you play Killer?
Every killer plays differently, meaning not every build will work for every single one of them. You may need to mix-and-match separate perks to see what works well for you for that particular killer. So, you might end up grinding Bloodpoints to earn every single perk in the game, for every single Killer in the game if you don't have a single main you always play as.
Meaning, once again, we take the number 38,500,000 Bloodpoints (Assuming they start from Level 1), and we multiply that by 19.... And we get...
731,500,000 Bloodpoints.
And that is the best case scenario, that is assuming the Bloodweb doesn't screw you over by eating up multiple perks at once which has happened to me loads of times when I was maxing out Spirit. That is still a ridiculously huge amount of Bloodpoints, especially for Killers.
Now, if we add up every single Survivor as well, that number skyrockets to...
1,540,000,000 Bloodpoints.
Seeing this number and doing the math makes me think that perks like BBQ and WGLF are sometimes Mandatory because of how ridiculous this grind can be.
This reminds me a lot of PAYDAY 2 prior to them adding the Crime Spree mechanic. You needed to grind hours upon upon of XP to get to Infamy-XXV and you get diminishing returns because doing the best heist in the game for XP over and over again will incur you an XP penalty. It was brutal and unforgiving.
With Crime Spree, yeah the heists became harder but the rewards became much more worth it, it became much more rewarding and the time spent to grind greatly diminished making it easier to grind for Infamy-XXV.
But DBD has nothing like that, With BBQ you'd be lucky if you got 64,000 Bloodpoints in a single match. I just cannot fathom how someone, especially DBD Content Creators, could spend that much hours, that many matches of the same game to max out every character in the game to it's fullest potential. It must be a huge feeling of relief when you finally reach there.
After doing the math, I really hope BHVR takes a look at BP gains, or at least the Bloodweb Mechanic. Because right now DBD is incredibly hostile to new players, and it's driving people away more than it encourages them to stay because of that looming grind over their heads. And I think it would be better for the game, and the playerbase as a whole, if the grind was not this huge.
That's all I have to say regarding the Grind in Dead by Daylight.
Thank you for coming to yet another one of my TED Talks, it is now 6 AM and I have not slept.
Comments
-
Why would new players want all characters p3 level 50 with all perks? A better calculation would just be getting all perks and then maybe getting p3 level 50 with all perks on one character each killer and survivor. The final endgame of dbd should be a little daunting, the starting point should not. Why calculate the endgame when talking about newer players?
2 -
I did talk about the grind for new players. I added the endgame at the end to put it into prespective.
2 -
Ah ok I got thrown off track
0 -
Ya the grind is an absolute pain in the ass for a newer player. This is the type of game you probably won't have a competetive build (especially as killer) for a good 100 hours atleast. Even my main is still using some lvl 2 perks and suboptimal builds because I need millions upon millions more bloodpoints to unlock singular perks I need and have an absolute ton of characters I need to do it on. This isn't even going into the depressing paywall or hyper grind on top of your grind wall to just get the characters for often 1-2 perks. Shrine is garbage, 7 shrines in now and I've given up on seeing anything not garbage in there as it seems very obvious that shrine is rigged against anything decent to push dlc sales. It's quite frustrating to constantly be fighting at a disadvantage, most games have a thing called matchmaking so it's less of an issue being at a disadvantage but this game has no matchmaking at all. Been fighting red ranks with thousands of hours since day 1, knowing I'm still hundreds of hours from being on even footing on so much as a single character is frustrating beyond belief.
15 -
Hmm I'll add some rough math here since that's basically what the thread is about.
1540000000 total required divided by 30000 bp per game = 51333 games required to max out
51333 games times 25 mins per game = 1283333 minutes required to max out
1283333 minutes divided by 60 minutes per hour = 21389 hours required to max out, or 2.44 entire years of your life doing nothing but playing dbd
The math is really rough but maybe you'll find it fun to look at :P
14 -
Yes it totally sucks how there are still only 4 perks in the shrine.
0 -
Jesus F-ing Christ.
I didn't do the math for the amount of actual hours you need to spend but holy crap on a bicycle. That really makes the grind much more worse in prespective if you put it in actual YEARS.
13 -
Been playing this game for three years plus. Have only 4 with all perks. I gave up P3 on characters after getting 2 there. I saw zero difference in the items on my blood web and don't care about the clothing. As killer, I can't see it anyways. As survivor, P3 gets you tunneled half the time.
The grind in this game is nuts. One of the reasons I find myself playing less and less of the game.
12 -
At some point they need to get rid of the tiered perks and just have the current tier 3 be the perk. It made sense 3 years and 25 characters ago. Now its just gotten crazy
8 -
Yeah I was pretty disappointed that I was even able to put it into years. I imagined it was huge but I didn't imagine players could still be working on it after their kids grow up xD
0 -
The grind in this game is a joke compared to many other games.
For example ff11 used to make it to were it takes 50k to level up easy right then you need 5 others in the roles u arnt also no party finder. And if you fight solo it's 25xp for 10 mins of your time.
The grind isn't that bad trust me lol
1 -
Could do some math on iri shards
From lvl 1 to 50 there's an increasing returns from (I think) 25 to 300
Then from 50 to 100 is 300... so 50X300 is 15000
15000 is enough to get a non licensed killer/survivor... and 3 perks off the shrine... or some cosmetics
1 -
I gotta say, I am impressed with how you made this entire post. It's a rigid argument.I agree wholeheartedly the grind is absolutely insane. They need a whole redesign of the bloodweb or something else. Mobile is even doing better than PC/Console now thanks to their reward system IMO. The grind on PC is INTENSE, and while the archive goals/dailies do help a little, it is still absurd that the devs are so slow to provide more reward systems. As a killer main, too, I can tell that survivors are being absolutely starved of bloodpoints. Getting max BP in a round as surv happens once in a blue moon, whereas with killer, I can get it just about any round if I play my cards right.
I really hope the devs see this and take it to consideration.
13 -
I'm sorry, FF11? I'm not familiar on what that game is.
0 -
This, or they need to make leveling perks and characters separate. You should be able to spend bloodpoints on perks unlocked without having to buy add-ons you are extremely unlikely to use. I don't want retardant jelly or rubber gloves, I want tier III WGLF which I haven't seen in 20 bloodwebs.
7 -
Playing killer with bbq on youll get closer to 50k per game on average.
And 25 minutes per game? Ive never had a game go that long. 15 mins is a long game. Even if we be generous and include time in between games its at most 20.
2 -
Thank you, someone told me I should make an entire post regarding the Bloodpoint Grind so I thought I should put more thought into it because it is a rather large issue especially for new players.
5 -
It makes me happy to see other players who take time to make posts in the forums :,) I try to, but get sh*t on for trying to suggest improvements. :( Dbd forums feel like people just going on here to say why you're wrong even if they don't disagree. But seriously, this bloodpoint grind is so monotonous.
3 -
I always thought they should have an item buy back mechanic at 50% tge purchase rate. If i have a brown tool box i dont want that cost me 3k to buy on blood web, i should be able to sell it back to the entity for 1500. I think they should do both things honestly. Get rid of tiered perks and have the buy back mechanic
7 -
Playing survivor normally will get you about 18k on average. 30k is a pretty happy medium imo. For game length I included queues, lobbies, dodging, and setting up. This can also account for wasted games like moris or genrushers or whatever. Anything else I might have missed?
7 -
I think I just read the discussion lol
0 -
No if youre playing survivor thats about right. I dont recommend anyone grind for bps playing survivor tho. Ques are longer and and bps are less. The ONLY benefit is you can go into a game with no items or addons so theres no cost
0 -
I would LOOOOOVE this so much, I have so many wasted add-ons on both sides I would love to scrap for more BP. Seriously, who in their right mind would willingly use Chili add-ons on Bubba?
7 -
Agreed. Survivor is absolutely miserable in terms of bp and playing it is a waste of time if you are trying to reach dbd's endgame. Obviously, I assume in my calculations that the player isn't trying their absolute hardest to reach endgame, so they would still mix killer and survivor. Thanks for the input!
4 -
You can get almost all the meta perks for survivor with 3 characters to level 40. Bill, David, and Laurie. And the last one you level up will probably have the meta combo before you even hit 40.
Killer you get the two most important perks with 2 characters to level 40. Plague and Clown for corrupt + pop. Everything after that is preference, but that's 2 characters to 40 to be competitive at any rank in the game with killer.
0 -
This is true, but it’s not really how new people play. They see a character they like and level them. Or they try out some perks, enjoy Technician or Urban Evasion or whatever and unlock them ASAP. New players don’t know or care about the meta, they’re just excited and want to unlock stuff, especially stuff that helps them as a newbie which may not be something they stick with in the long run. This is half the enjoyment of being new and the insane grind chokes the fun out of it.
7 -
Then let's retouch this math. And perks are not going to be included in this equation because not all players have access to it.
(All numbers are rounded down for length sake.)
1,540,000,000/30,000 = 51,333 games.
Let's be lenient and say games are 13 minutes, 3 minutes for queue/load, 10 minutes for gameplay.
51,333 x 13 = 667,329
667,329/60 = 11122 hours
1 calendar year consists of 8,760 hours.
11,122/8,760 equals 1.269 years.
Not like playing the game for that time in date to date, playing for that time in raw gametime. No breaks.
This is if each game is 13 minutes and you get 30,000 bloodpoints. As survivor, that's difficult to get. As killer, definitely more possible but not always so in just 10 minutes.
7 -
As a newer player, who has 4 survivors to go and 0 killers leveled -- I beg of thee BHVR. 👀💦 Do sumtin'.
Probably gonna prestige one survivor and one killer. I can't imagine doing more with this system. I still like the idea of removing tiers from perks as well. There's less than a hand full of perks people want at tier 1, and those could be reviewed to see which people use more.
6 -
Yeah, it is rather brutal and I get why you would totally be turned off by it. They honestly could do so much to help with the grind, turning off Tiers for perks would be a nice step imo. Because it would cut the grind by 2/3rds.
5 -
It takes only a few days to reach 120 in retail wow currently btw lmao
1 -
Final fantasy 11 the game were you lose xp by death and mythics take a rl year and a half to make if you got friends to help
0 -
yeah most perks have no reason for a tier one or two. Since outside of a few rare cases. Tier three is always the best choice. There is really no reason for tier one or two to exist, outside of a grind.
7 -
Pretty much everyone will agree that the grind in this games is absolutely insane.And it's pretty much the major point why i can't and won't recommend this game at all.
They either have to:
-Change perks so they only have 1 Tier
-Remove the bonus bloodpoint gain from BBQ and WGLF and make it baseline
-Make a seperate bloodweeb for perks only
8 -
Pretty much everyone will agree that the grind in this games is absolutely insane.And it's pretty much the major point why i can't and won't recommend this game at all.
They either have to:
-Change perks so they only have 1 Tier
-Remove the bonus bloodpoint gain from BBQ and WGLF and make it baseline
-Make a seperate bloodweeb for perks only
0 -
Also not saying your wrong just I have a different personal experience.
0 -
Imagine getting 100% more BP than what we already get now. It would make every game feel like it's worth a damn rather than feeling like you sometimes wasted your time because the game ended way too quickly because you were too efficient.
3 -
Yes,just hate how much BBQ and WGLF are mandatory just so you can get a decent amount of points.
I would love to use different kinds of builds but playing without these perks and getting so little points just feels really bad.
5 -
I tend to have two types of Killers I play which makes me think I am somewhat lucky in this regard:
- Killers I play extensively and can basically 4k every game with little to no effort
- Killers I want to play because their playstyle interests me, but I have little experience with them and I don't have any good perks on them
If I want to exclusively farm Bloodpoints, I can just turn on a podcast and grind with my Mains for a whole day. I will get a lot of bloodpoints anyways because the Killers I main both have BBQ at Tier 3. But I tend to still try to go for a 4k.
These Bloodpoints, I tend to use for the other Killers I play that I like to experiment with and have more experience with. Killers like Pig and Plague for example. They keep this game afloat for me because despite not investing as much as I did with my Main killers to them, I tend to have more fun with them because they feel new.
If I want to experiment with different builds, I technically could use my Mains because they already have all if not most of the perks in the game. So I can test if in theory that build can work on the other Killers I play... If I ever get the perks for them that is, because the Bloodweb can be ridiculously horrific with it's RNG sometimes.
I once didn't get BBQ until I was Level 50 with the new Killer, that being Oni back then.
0 -
4 years and over 4k hrs. Still not even close to p3 50 all perks on all characters.
0 -
Developers are often afraid that without grinds, players won't play their games for very long.
It's a bit of insecurity, really. Granted, some genres (MMOs) are sort of predicated on grinds, but people somehow manage to play other games just fine for years without needing to grind some kind of currency.
If Chess were invented in the internet era, you'd start every game with just 7 pawns and a king. You'd have to unlock additional "Piece Slots" to get more pawns, and then unlock "Prestige Pieces" like Knights and Bishops by grinding your face off. Only the most no-lifers would manage to get a piece to Prestige 3 to get a Queen.
10 -
I dont even really need bloodpoints anymore.All my killers are p3 full perks and my survivors are p3 too but only my most played ones have the perks i usually use.
A rework for a more meaningful endgame would be really sweet too rather than just trying to get everything p3 and full perks.
1 -
I didn't read the comments, so forgive me if this has been said already, but I'd just like to add that the devs are very aware of the grind being an issue - reducing the grind is, I believe, already on their list of things to fix.
1 -
I remember getting all the teachables for killer and then thinking "Well now what?"
I don't have a preferred killer and the sheer amount of bloodpoints I needed to get my killers there relative to the amount ya get from actually playing the game *alongside* the fact I never got many of the teachables I wanted on the bloodweb really threw me off of this game. I only came back recently since I've been really bored and Otzdarva makes this game look like the most fun thing on planet earth.
Funny story. I could only get BBQ on like 4-5 of my killers who are all nearly 50. Just recently prestiged my Legion (one of the killers I had BBQ on, only Tier 1 tho) because I was using them for the tome. Got it twice now. I'm now convinced prestige is the greatest thing on God's green earth but also I hate it.
4 -
Ever played warframe? At least the grind in dbd is ultimately not RNG based.
1 -
That was my biggest problem with f13, the perk system was awful and way to rng
0 -
Yeah was my reason to stop playing warframe too. For one single part of a frame you needed to grind one mission like ~200 times to get a (hypothetically) guaranteed drop. That mission took half an hour. I don't like to spend 100 hours to do the exact same thing over and over again.
4 -
They did give us the bloodweb rework, which i was happy to get.
I know it's my choice. I want to unlock all tier 3 perks for all my killers, but dammit the bloodpoints needed is growing with every added killer.
I'm expecting to spend 5mill+ bloodpoints at least unlocking all tier 3 killer perks for next killer and i try to be efficient with the bloodweb.
3 -
Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't mind it so much, but it's particularly rough on newer players, killer mains, and newer killer mains in particular. Like I said though, there are plans to reduce it from what I've heard - my comment wasn't referring to the bloodweb rework, but to future updates.
1 -
I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said on this post. The grind is ridiculous. I started playing this game just over a year ago with my roommates. Since we were new, we had no idea what we were doing. After a few games and some YouTube videos later, we had brief ideas. But by God were we turned off by the amount of time needed to unlock perks and then actually GET them on another character. It's off-putting. We stopped playing for the remainder of the year. I eventually came back and have been grinding for the past month and learning everything. I got to rank 1 survivor, then got devotion 1. Those are probably my only worthy accomplishments so far.
I haven't prestiged any characters. I only have 2 survivors and 1 killer at level 50. I only have 3-4 survivors I can play with proper perk builds. I only have 2-3 killers I can use proper perk builds on. I also have nearly 300 hours (which I know isn't much compared to so many other people) of playtime. I feel like it would make sense that putting 300 hours into a game, you should be able to play most of what the game has to offer. I still can't. There's still many teachables I would like (especially for killer), but am just so unmotivated to grind this game (especially without BBQ or WGLF). BBQ isn't bad because it's also a tracking perk, but WGLF literally does nothing to help you during the game. It's a wasted perk slot that I wouldn't mind using for something else. But the grind is way too extreme so I feel like without it, I am just forfeiting way too many BPs.
Also I specifically remember a thread from yesterday or the day before about how the 1.5x bloodrush event ended a few weeks ago and someone missed it; everyone was up in arms saying the guy should've played earlier if he wanted the extra BP! Now, everyone seems to be on the same page that the grind is terrible and more BP is needed. Sometimes this forum makes no sense.
Post edited by calem on4 -
Your numbers are a little off there because I consistently bring characters from 1-40 when New characters release with just the 1million I saved up. Also you must have forgotten or never saw it but they are planning to remove perk tiers so that part of your post won't be an issue anymore.
0
