Discussion about Freddy and Clown
No, I'm not going to say 'Freddy beats me so therefore hE's OvErPoWeReD'.
I want to discuss how his current power has killed another killer: The Clown.
In todays meta, the Clown is almost non existent, why? Because Freddy exists. This has lead to less diversity as Freddy does what Clown does, but doesn't need to reload at all and he can teleport on top of that.
Now, there's a few ways to fix this: Buff Clown to a whole new extent; or just simply remove Freddy's snares.
Slowing survivors down SHOULD be unique to Clown only, and Freddy being able to do this has reduced Clown's usage considerably. I personally believe the devs should remove Snares from Freddy, and the clown issue would sort itself out. Make Dream pallets base, and rework some addons so they fit better.
Or how else would you guys make Clown return into the meta, while also getting rid of the Freddy complaints? That's my solution which I think is best for removing complaints and bringing Clown back.
Comments
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Just because snares are similar to the bottles of clown doesnt mean there shouldnt be a power similar. Like ghostface and myers have similar powers and those are fine.
And just because people complain about freddy doesnt mean they are right
The clown need buffs nothing else and pretty sure the devs stated that they were planning to change the clown soon.
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Not a bad idea and a good point, Clown is in a pretty sad state. The only time I play him is when I'm just messing around or doing a daily ritual. Making his tonic have a (slightly) longer duration and wider AoE would also help
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So they do have a plan, it'll have to be something pretty big to overcome Freddy's advantages, cause his pure existence in this state has killed the Clown.
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Freddy is definitely OP though. Just stating that so the devs will FINALLY nerf him.
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Myers and Ghostface are very different:
Ghostface individually stalks survivors, has no Terror Radius (which I will now call TR) in his mode, can poke his head out to stalk faster, and can be revealed. But he can hide his stain in a chase, and lose the TR which makes him strong.
Myers, on the other hand, gets increased a tiny terror radius in EW1, and no red stain at the expense of being slower. In EW2, he's normal speed with slightly increased vaulting, but less TR, which is an advantage in chases and helps him against loops. In EW3, he's got a better vault speed AND a large lunge but a normal TR which makes him very strong in chases when paired up with perks like Bamboozle or Brutal Strength. Which leads to him being better than Ghostface but unique.
I hate how people think they're similar, they're really not if you've played them both.
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Nah, I don't mind facing him. He just forces pallets down earlier.
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People dont play clown because he sucks, not because freddys snares have a somewhat similar effect. He has no mobility at all and theres nothing lethal about him. I play a lot of both because i like tge idea of playing a killer clown, I just wish he could keep up
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He sucks because Freddy does what he does but also has mobility. Clown was somewhat popular before the rework, by that I mean he was played a decent amount.
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That was before the ruin nerf. He fell out after that. With ruin he could somewhat keep up. Still weak but managable, after ruin rework hes completely useless.
Youre comparing snares which are only usefell when a survivor is asleep and only effect a tiny spot on tge ground to a gas that effects a whole area and can be used whenever. The only thing comparable between the two is that they both slow you down a little.
As an example, Billy and leatherface have more in common than Fred and clown do, and yet people still play leatherface (hes weak but at least he can be lethal too).
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LF can down multiple survivors in one saw and is great for camping, Billy can't down a whole team at once but has more mobility and can counter looping. Not that similar at all.
Plus, Freddy can force you into dream by hitting you once. And for the Gas, you need to reload, but for Freddy's snares, you can just spam them in an area essentially making them more effective since you don't have to reload. I don't want Freddy nerfed, but Clown literally can't keep up.
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I didnt say they were exactly tge same, I said they were more similar than fred and clown.
I agree clown cant keep up, and I agree Fred doesnt need a nerf. What I am saying is people arent choosing not to play clown because hes similar to fred, theyre not playing clown because he sucks
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It's odd, right? Unless they can give anything big to Clown, similarly to how they ignored us and gave Hag a whole rework (which made her viable) instead of just giving her 115% MS, I can't see anything coming out of this other than Freddy's snares being removed. Plus, his dream pallets are still viable.
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Clown has two definitive advantages over Freddy: his gas is not conditional as far as when it works on survivors, and it can be used to apply exhaustion with a Solvent Jug add on. Eliminating exhaustion perks from a chase before the chase even starts can be massive. Many survivors don't even realize they don't have Dead Hard available until they go to use it
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I think with both the feather addons that reduce the cooldown between throws, that recovery phase is near instant and you lose almost no distance when you throw a bottle which makes him almost decent, so having that as his default recovery time would definitely make him a lot better. Then you'd be able to run his slowdown addons which would actually allow him to do what he's supposed to do, which is shut down loops and end chases fast because right now if you don't run those addons there's literally 0 point to using the bottles in an open area, their only use is to force survivors to medium vault windows.
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Clown requires effort and skill to win.
Freddy just needs you to press cruise control to win.
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You know? This is probably why I am glad the devs are the ones balancing the game and not the community.
Removing Freddy's snares just to make Clown more unique is definitely going to set red flags if it ever is implemented into the game.
Because that would mean any killer that has a similar power to any other killer needs to be changed.
I.E Deathslinger & Huntress being able to down you from a distance with their power, Trapper & Hag being able to end chases before it happens with thier traps, Oni & Myers being able to one down by filling up their meter.
Buffing Clown is definitely the way to go, because I'd rather not go down that rabbit hole if we remove Freddy's snares. And I wouldn't want him to have Pallets as base because I Think they are way more dangerous than snaes.
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Clown sucked before reworked Freddy came into the picture. He was meta only a brief period after his release ( like pretty much every killer ), but then people understood how bad he is and left him in dust. Freddy rework officially killed Clown, as now your only reason to play Clown over Freddy ( or any other killer ) is if you want a challenge. Even devs finally acknowledged that Clown is in a deplorable state and they're gonna buff him.
From what I saw, people don't really want Freddy's snares to be outright removed, but want the failing asleep mechanic to be tweaked, so Freddy either has a harder time to put survivors to sleep, either survivors have an easier time to wake up.
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Just make the clouds turn into puddles when they're done expanding/existing in the air that explode when stepped on (add-ons for cloud size also change puddle size) , and last until exploded or reload.
Clown gets a notification if someone steps in a puddle - Unlike Freddy, puddles do not cause slowdown, but cause the blurred effect for 2x the duration that the gas does (effected by add-ons).
This would allow for multiple play styles, interesting add-on usage, and provide more use for a unique mechanic (blur).
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Unfortunately whenever they will decide to touch clown which will probably be years down the line they'll get rid of his exhaustion add-on
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"Years down the line" = Most likely the next mid-chapter patch.
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Well, people who complain about freddy are being right.
There are currently 2 killers who, without any addons, are still better at what other killers do with addons:
Spirit and Freddy.
Freddy can do what clown can do, with no impact on his movementspeed, he can practically spam it and pre-set his slows on popular loops to end them before they start. Clown has to constantly reload his bottles, which reduces his speed practically in half, and he'd have to throw his bottles into a loop pre-emptively to deter people from using those loops, but if people still decide to go in, the cloud would be gone by the time Clown can break the loop, requiring at least 2 bottles of his limited supply. They are essentially the same, but Freddy's power is simply a better version of Clown's power. Let alone that Freddy can Teleport. Sure, Freddy requires his targets to be asleep for his slow to work, but its not exactly hard for Freddy to keep people asleep. Clown requires addons and specific perks to be able to match Freddy's ability.
Spirit can do what Wraith can do, but better, the only downside that Spirit cannot see survivors directly, but in terms of mappressure and chases, she can pretty much blindly chase a person and reappear and let autoaim land the blow for her, while Wraith practically needs to be touching survivors before he can start uncloaking to guarantee a hit in the first place. Wraith requires addons to be able to match Spirit's pressure and chasing capability.
As for Ghostface, he actually has more in common with Pig than he has with Myers. The stalking might be similar, but Ghostface's stalk requires his ability to be uninterrupted, while Myers can stalk as long as survivors have stalk juices in them. They are simply not comparable in ability. T1 Myers is similar to Ghostface, but T1 Myers is temporary. Ghostface's ability to crouch and have no TR helps him out a lot more than his ability to stalk and instadown.
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Clown is not the first killer who could slow survivors down with his power
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I was just suggesting an idea to help Clown's case and remove the Freddy complaints. Tell me a buff you'd give to Clown then.
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Interesting... So you disorientate survivors at loops once the cloud has gone?
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Yeah, that could be made base kit.
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I mean in the base kit, lol. Not the hindered addons.
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Yeah.
They could make an add-on that renders them invisible (Common or Uncommon), which would also cause survivors to lose time if they run through one and bump into obstacles on their way around the map.
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This is just a "nerf freddy" thread in disguise.
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Dream pallets are incredibly weak against players who pay attention to their surroundings, and is 100% countered with comms and even more so with Small Game. If dream pallets were base he would become incredibly rare simply because they are kinda bad. Even before the Nightmare rework, Clown was not a popular character in the slightest. He needs a buff, nerfing other killers will not make him better by any means.
Claiming the hindered status effect should be exclusive to one character is like claiming only one character should have an insta down ability, it is such a non argument.
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Make his reload speed faster and have him have less slowdown while throwing bottles.
Throwing them is already rather confusing enough to learn, since they go on a more pronounced arc unlike Huntress' Hatchets. Making them more like bombs you drop from the air rather than exact projectiles to hit your targets.
His power has way too many drawbacks to be used efficiently in a viable scenario, and sometimes you might have to throw while guessing whether or not Survivors will be on generators. The slowdown is longer than Freddy's snares, so that slowdown shouldn't really be buffed. It's his ability to use that slowdown that needs to be looked at in my opinion.
The devs may disagree with me, and that's fine, they know stuff I don't and if they feel there could be other changes that could be done to Clown, I'm all for it.
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Nah, if I wanted him nerfed, I'd have just said it. I'm more concerned about Clown. I'm not afraid to say my opinion if I did want only Freddy nerfed.
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True, dream pallets do have their flaws, don't they. I think I'll wait to see what the devs say on Clown before I make another controversial thread.
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Someone mentioned radius earlier, too. I think a combination of longer duration, slightly larger radius, @Raccoon's idea of adding an after effect and faster reload speed could be the way to go. He'd definitely be unique if he had all 4 of those, but perhaps OP, what do you think about all that added to his base?
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I wouldn't say he is OP, because throwing them like I said, is a weird learning curve. It's not like Huntress' Hatchets or Deathslinger's Redeemer. He just chucks it in a way that can make anyone who starts learning how to play him confused as to how it works. Just... YEETS it at them.
That said, I don't think he needs a larger radius. The gas has a big enough radius as long as you throw it in front of the Survivor and not behind or besides them. I also wouldn't want a longer duration as well because I think it's long enough for a Survivor to either abandon a loop or stay in it risking being hit with the slowdown. I also wouldn't want an after effect because that would ruin Clown's add-ons which does give added status effects by being effected by the cloud of gas.
I think what could be done is give him more add-ons that makes his gas more dangerous to walk through, like maybe that smoke effect doesn't clear immediately after you get unhindered, that could be good cause to create mindgames because the player's vision is hindered. I do honestly think Clown just needs a faster reload speed (because that reload is way too long without add-ons) and less of a hinderence for using his power. Like don't give him 100% speed while throwing his gas bottles, but make it so it doesn't feel like you're randomly stopping every time you throw a bottle.
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A: Devs have said Clown is next being looked at, so there's that.
B: The snares aren't the only reason Freddy is a better clown. Freddy also has Teleportation, much better mindgames with his height and teleport cancel, and no terror radius if they are asleep. Clown literally has bottles that are incredibly buggy, so even if Clown was bug free he'd always be worse then most, if not all, killers because he has literally no pressure and is only good in chases.
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I don't think removing snares is the way to go, since they're arguably the stronger of the two powers. At the very least it's not dependent on survivors interacting with something so you can destroy it and replace it.
I definitely agree that the Clown needs a buff though. When I started off, he was my favorite killer, and it kinda sucks that he's not viable at the ranks I tend to reach now.
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Yes, maybe that buff was over the top.
But they shouldn't buff his addons, his base is what needs to be touched. Killers need to be more like Spirit, Oni, Hag, Billy or Myers where they're viable without addons. Being forced to use addons to have a killer be viable (Nurse for example) is bad game design. Devs should be focusing on the base, and making addons either alter the killers game plan (like Myers) or make them a bit stronger, but not oppressive (like Spirit). It's a fine line to hit, of course, but if the devs were to take this approach when buffing/reworking killers (as they did with Doctor) the game will reach balance more smoothly.
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Oh of course, I'm not saying they should make Clown add-on dependent. I do think however that his add-ons could be touched upon to provide more interesting play with his bootles other than just to slow the survivor down.
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Yeah, he should get a full rework to play more like Myers, where his addons change his whole gamestyle. It'd be super interesting. Clown has the potential to be one of the best killers, it just depends what the devs do.
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I honestly like pallets more than snares, but their alert effect is really nice. Maybe if they just gave Freddy pallets as his main active power, and snares are just used for detecting Survivors? Clown should definately be the main anti-loop and slowdown Killer. But even this wouldn't make Clown much more popular because his power is just dull to most people. Only reason I consider Clown one of my mains is because I like him as a character and like his power in how it works. Freddy is superior, but I just like playing Clown more.
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Let's be real we have no idea when the devs will get around to it that's why I said years
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Isn't related but I can't find a room for it. I was thinking about requesting the Silent Hill nurse costume but for the nurse and when she floats have the same animation as the spirit but she just makes bones breaking noises. Then as a new killer was thinking something like a siren or mimic. An ugly faceless killer then as a special ability cloaks itself as a survivor but the only difference is it's still faceless. Maybe while it's in this ability instead of a heart beat let its siren or song be the dead by daylight theme song. Idk maybe a storyline later about how Kate heard it one time and it stuck with her and that's why she plays it on the guitar all the time idk. I'm hoping my ideas lead to a discussion. Just something cool to think about.
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I’ll go against the grain and say Clowns bottles are way better. See a survivor running to a strong loop? As Clown as you stop that and get a hit, as Freddy you can’t do anything since you can’t put snares in front of them.
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According to the head of game balance. He says the clown is top tier. That tells you a lot about the devs.
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How
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If you have to ask that question, you're either a bad killer or don't play survivor.
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Freddy is in no way op
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He's not op... He's just strong and very easy to learn. That's why we see so many newbs playing him.
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Would removing the reloading bottles mechanic be too much? Why not just have them passively recharge one bottle every 5-6 seconds?
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Nobody is playing Clown at high ranks because he's trash. It's that simple.
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