Doctor is absurd (video)
Can we actually spend a moment to fully grasp how toxic and un-counterable is doctor when used correctly and with good addons?
I was under the impression that the rework was made to make doctor less annoying to verse, but the results are the opposite.
Also, before the super pros come in and say "just dodge the shock bro!" please do show me video evidence of you versing a good doctor at red ranks and dodging the shocks while maintaining an optimal path in a loop.
Last time I asked nobody was able to show anything, let's see what you have this time
Comments
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Yeah this whole video is what show cases why doctor is so great. (Btw big fan of monto)
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The big problem, like Monto pinpoints, is the lack of counterplay. (I am also a big fan of Monto!)
If you keep the optimal path in a loop you get shocked and you can't throw the pallet or vault, if you try to dodge you move away from the optimal path and the killer with 115% speed is on you before you can reach the pallet or the window.
If the doctor is competent this is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation, not fun.
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If the Doc is competent and they know what to do, then good for them, they deserve that kill. Especially with an optimal build like that.
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How do you counter Huntress and Deathslinger who shut down loops? And he played with potato survivors as you saw.
And what is TOXIC here? Good addons?
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well yeah doc is absurd the only way i can think against him is just do 360 'cause you'll doomed if you try to juke box pallet or T L window
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So if my skill as a survivor matches the killer's skill, there is still nothing I can do about it because the killer is broken.
Don't you think that's a bit unfair?
I agree that eventually the killer needs to win the chase, but like this you are simply powerless.
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Yeah its not fun play against, but its fun to play as. I like to play doctor when I'm having a bad day or get to many swf groups. A few good doctor games of 4k's when there's nothing they can do about feels good. Then go back to normal killers like before. Maybe its just me
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Personally I don't think so, it's a 1v4, if you're evenly skilled, it's only a matter of time before the Killer catches onto you.
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I don't think I ever said that I am ok with ANY killer being able to completely remove your defences.
Deathslinger at least gives you the chance to pre-throw the pallet, huntress I don't know I am bad in versing huntress so I don't really know the ins and outs.
Toxic is the complete sense of powerlessness that comes from doctor.
The survivors may have been potatoes, so I am sure you have plenty of video evidence in you being able to verse a competent doctor, please share
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I agree with that, but you should be able to do SOMETHING rather than being a sitting duck, or a running one.
I think that the game is in a spot where it needs clarity on where we are going.
A survivor being able to 1v1 a killer for a long time is absurd, but at the same time a killer that removes all your defences and your possibility of stalling is also absurd.
As a survivor I need to have some hope that my actions count for something, and a as killer I need the certainty I can end chase quickly BUT without completely annihilating all that a survivor can do.
Pallet looping for ages is really stupid and needs to go, but survivors need some sort of counterplay to gain time for their team
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I don't see anything wrong with having good, strong killers in the roster.
I main legion and billy, and when I am sick of being beaten as legion I use billy to get some groove back.
The difference is that when doctor is used correctly there is really not much you can do about it, and that really destroys the fun of a match.
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I can agree with that, though, I personally think strong add-ons (not to the extent of Iri Head by the way) should stay. I don't mind seeing this Doc combo being played as a Survivor mainly because I adore matches where the deck is stacked against me and the only way to win is if my team pulls their weight alongside me. Those games are always fun in my eyes.
If the Killer knows what they are doing, I expect my team to both help me out during the chase and work on their objective at the same time. It can make those seemingly unwinnable games feel like there's more hope at the end of it.
I'm not on the balance team so my opinion definitely isn't going to hold much sway, but I would be more in favour of Doctor basically slowing down Survivor actions more than just outright stopping them in their tracks. It could still have the Doctor put some hits in, but if the Survivor is fast enough they can barely miss a hit from the Doctor.
Then again I used to main Doc, so that wouldn't really be much of a problem to me anyways, most people already drop pallets early especially when facing Docs.
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It's not the DOCTOR, it's the addon's. Pretty sure if they just increase charge time of High Stimulus Electrode this will be fixed. But doctor is fine and is counterable. I guess this specific combo of addons might be too strong. But people claiming Doctor has no counter just need to play better I guess or even better play doctor on red ranks for a while and see all counters for themselves.
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People actually using monto videos as evidence to prove a point, you do realize that almost all his video's are cherry picked and doesn't always go down like that in his streams. Doc is fine just drop the pallet early and don't try and loop him like a basic Killer.
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This isn't even Lord Herman's full power. The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
If the player is using an optimal build on a Killer (not just Doctor, ANY Killer) they are good at in a 4v1 game, then they deserve to get the down. Also, using add-ons is toxic now? Ok...
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I am politely asking you again, provide evidence of a survivor being able to counter a competent doctor in a loop.
With skills being comparable the doctor can remove your counteplay and that's not ok
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Funny enough I faced these add-ons yesterday and the day before. They are extremely strong. I understand what he's trying to say about how broken the add-ons can be.
Trying to loop was virtually impossible and I'd imagine on maps with shorter tiles it would be pretty dumb. I'm not saying they need to be changed but I find this more annoying to face than instasaw Billy.
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I agree that the killer needs to win chases, I have never said the opposite.
My point is really different and it is all based on the fact that I need to be able to do something as a survivor and when a doctor player is good they can really destroy you regardless of your skill level as a survivor.
That is not ok in my book.
I think all of these issues stem from the fact that the devs don't have a clear idea of how long a chase should be.
If the game is balanced for 30 seconds chases, then gen speed need to be addressed as well and other playstyles need to be implemented in the game as well.
As it stands, pallet looping is being nerfed left and right and that's GOOD! At the same time the survivor gameplay and ways to avoid the killer are not being implemented and that's absurd.
There needs to be something that a survivor can do or the game is simply boring if you feel powerless.
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I agree with what you say, I think there should be a conversation regarding how long chases should be and balance adjustments to reach that.
Once it's clear a chase should last 30/45/60 seconds or whatever then gens and new ways to avoid the killer can be implemented.
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Please provide evidence of some of your games where you are versing a competent red rank doctor and you are capable of doing so.
It is like a good doctor doesn't know you can pre-throw the pallet and counter it...
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Calm Spirit makes this not work so it has counter play and is completely fair and balanced 😛
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True. Calm spirit is mostly a terrible perk BUT it shouldn't be able to counter a killer power.
I think calm spirit needs a rework tbh, at the end of the day is a wasted perk slot 90% of the time, a bit of a gamble for 1 killer
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Here you go. Played and taken by me today in solo queue all red ranks. https://youtu.be/GLUfieBY6EM
You can imagine what all meta perks team and SWF can do to him. And don't say "It was a bad killer". Any killer played well will be difficult ot play against, doctor or not.
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It is harder to find evidence to suggest a killer who can beat rank 1 teams. not complete potato's that run in middle of nowhere. I'm going give you a visual representation in words. Suppose hypothetically that you ran in a straight line from one side of fracture cowshed to another and whenever doctor would be in range to shock, He would shock you. What would happen is that the doctor would never make any distance because he would keep slowing himself down until you got to other end of the map and this would continue indefinitely.
So why does this matter? In loops, every time you turn a corner, the killer comes closer to you every time you don't drop a pallet when looping a filler pallet. This is true for every killer, but in the case of doctor, he does this as well but at slower rate. Logically, if you kept looping same side, eventually he would come close enough to you and he would hit you. The reason why this works is because when your looping, your not following a straight line and this goes into another myth where some people will tell you something along lines of killer having bigger models than survivors result in them moving slower around the loop. Obviously this isn't true but you might see some highlight compilation of a survivor looping a killer 20 times around a loop when in reality, the killer is like rank 20. In order to go in straight line so that you can loop doctor's shock therapy, you need to use both sides of the loop. Just illustrate my point, at 12:14 in Monto's video, Claudette runs to double truck loop and for some reason just stands there by the pallet. Claudette should have continue going forward and she should have kept looping either side of the truck loop. The goal is to bait the doctor into using shock therapy as many times as possible and than switch to the other side of the loop. Depending how tightly the survivor and the killer hug the corner of each loop, It will take 3-4 shocks before the doctor catch up. When you think he will catch up on the next loop, you want him to shock you and you will move to the other side of the loop and begin loop the other side of the truck. In theory, you could loop doctor indefinitely and never drop the pallet, however this technique works because both side of the loop are equally safe. Not every pallet in DBD is equally safe on both sides, so for some pallets, you will loop safe side and than be required to make a read to get to the pallet and hopefully stun the killer.
There is more to looping doctor than that. There are certain pallets where doctor will stand adjacent to the loop and you can make a read for whether to put pallet on his side or the other side of the loop at which point depending safety of the loop, you play the pallet or move to another tile if you win 50/50. There are other pallets very specific pallets also known as god pallets that appear on various maps like The game map below staircase, below bathroom, the shack and Lery library etc. These type of pallets when dropped need to be broken, however If the doctor thinks your rank 20 survivor, He might attempt to shock you and if he successfully shocks you, he can trap you on one side of the pallet and than hit you. Those are the shocks in which you need to dodge when camping those pallets.
This isn't guide to say that you will always escape doctor or never take a hit. There have been conversation in the past regarding whether survivor should be able to indefinitely 1vs1 a killer such as Spirit but that is entirely different topic. This is guide how to waste the killer's time and do as much damage in a chase against Doc. Monto is the type of the guy who will use iri head+infantry huntress and lose with it than say in the video that huntress requires no aiming skill and just shoots whales at you. It is just a lot of non-sense. As for the add-on, doctor does not need discipline add-on to time his shock therapy, Discipline add-on is mostly used for the ability to remove the doctor red-stain. The detonation delay just makes you shock little later rather than sooner and it makes it a tiny bit harder to juke shock on some situations for survivor. as a side note, it indirectly increases his shock therapy cooldown recovery which becomes very noticeable if both are add-on are stacked. you will feel "paused" for longer. The range add-on is useful for stop instant drop pallet drops from very far away to begin clock-wise shock therapy explained in paragraph 2 and it was good answer to some of god-windows present on old Ironwork of misery loop. Apart from Myer's house god-window in Haddonfield and couple of other places, this add-on does not play a big part in doctor's ability to shock therapy most loops. I know this post looks like a large wall of text but It is a lot of information to write out on paper to answer your question. This does not cover every single possible situation, It just covers some of the basics.
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Lol I cant believe your really using montos vids as a balance point..dude the survivors in his vids have 0 optimal play..anyone who plays killer can attest to that...some of us actually do best docs in chase..because you may not believe it but doc requires more insight into how a survivor runs than you think..spamming shocks gets you no distance so timing is the key
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I stopped watching monto long ago. He fully got into being killer main and lately started a toxic attitude, last video of him I watched was tunneling a bunny feng and showing kinda rage on that for her using that outfit while bringing moris, he also uploaded videos before like oni's "I shouldn't be showing this build" which made more than once, and then other builds like this on doc.
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Come on man, with all due respect, the doctor did not play well at all.
On top of that you also used the most broken building in the entire game to win the first chase.
At the T wall you should have been hit by a decent doctor, at the next pallet he swung through the pallet misjudging the distance pretty badly.
That was not a competent doctor, he wasn't shocking at the right moments.
The addons he was using were brown, so the shock range was limited and the build was questionable, since using a tracking perk on a tracking killer isn't optimised at all.
You folks played well and deserved the win, still this does NOT satisfy my definition of a competent doctor.
Good game anyway
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In fairness, this basically like saying, "It's not fair that the killer can remove my defense by waiting out Dead Hard before swinging." or something similar.
Yes, you have to deal with different killers in different ways. You can't be super greedy with pallets against Doc.
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Let me spell it for you. If you and your team plays well you are likely to win against any killer. Now you just start finding excuses.
The addon combo is busted, fair enough.
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At 3:30 he says "unless you pre-throw the pallet youre not getting it down"
Which is exactly what doc was meant to do, force you to throw the pallet early.
Also im like 4 minutes in and every pallet has been thrown in a way that looked normal. Kate got shocked through the shack but she wasnt going to throw that anyway or at least she shouldnt have.
I guess my point here is just because a streamer says something is broken doesnt mean its broken. He even said himself (right before declaring no pallets were ever going to be thrown and then being proven wrong) there are add on combos nastier than this, and there are.
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Yup, it can actually lose you distance if youre not careful
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As much as I like playing as and against Doctor...His discipline add-ons are broken as hell. People are complaining about the wrong things on Doctor. We should be talking about his add-ons rather than his basekit, because his default ability is fine.
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This sounds more like I'm a one trick pony and this one killer doesn't let me use my one trick. I can't endlessly loop someone so its not fun for me nerf him.
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Like how when survivors found out ph isnt affected by ds and bt and rioted that his cage should activate them? I think survivors expect every killer to be solved by the same thing and thatd make the game boring if it was the case.
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they should add the old debuff of a longer shock therapy charge back on the electrodes.
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None of this was uncounterable. Doc is just an above average mid tier killer. Going against survivors playing badly will make anything look strong.
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Old doctor was MUCH more fun and oppressive to play as. He really could be countered by GOOD survivors though. To me, in his First iteration he felt like an amazing killer to play as. Since he threw madness everywhere at all times.
My only suggestion would have been for the team to have considered a way for survivors to completely drop out of madness Tier 1. Static shocks did NOTHING to players other than location reveals, screaming and interrupt actions. I felt he could do a good job at pallet loops and stopped window vaults much better back then. Than now.
Honestly though: Madness didn't do much other than create a few EASY skill checks.
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So are we all going to ignore that on top of dominating loopers, it's almost impossible to hide, use stealth and, you have likely gone insane. You might want to snap out of it, if you get a chance.
If you stay close, you scream. If you're far away, you've been revealed by BBQ. Add Hex: Ruin and Gen progress will likely be zero.
Oh, btw, have fun!
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Those survivors are making ridiculous mistakes. Doctor is very counterable. Check out the streams of survivors who play competitively and watch what happens to every Doctor they come across.
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The only addons I use are either moldy electrode or the yellow one with order add ons to reduce the cooldown with static blast and fake pallets.
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The problem with the video is that it raises the question of unintended interactions between the add-ons. Discipline 3 (the add-on Monto is using) only decreases the delay in the shock therapy's detonation by 0.2 seconds. The normal time to charge a shock therapy attack is 1 second, followed up immediately after with a 1 second delay before the whole AOE detonates to hit any survivor(s) still in it, lowering that delay by 0.2 seconds puts it at 0.8 seconds which isn't even a noticeable difference from 1 second.
So when it comes to the video, people seeing the difference are either
- Tricking themselves into believing they notice the difference due to the add-on's description, or
- Actually noticing a difference because the add-ons interactions with each-other are lowering the detonation delay further than intended.
The only time I've seen a difference is when I stack the top 2 discipline add-ons, because combined they reduce the detonation delay to 0.5 seconds, which unlike 0.8 seconds is actually noticeable. So how would 0.8 seconds become noticeable at all just because you added a range extending add-on, when the entire AoE field is locked on a 0.8 seconds timer before it detonates?
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Exactly, it's just a placebo that survivor's give themselves because the add-on has no actually number but instead the same lazy "considerably, Moderately and Slighty" Bull crap.
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#CancelDoc
Devs said they wanted to make Doc more fun/less frustrating to go against. My oh my how hard did they fail at that one. He's worse than before.
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