Devs losing touch with community
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Yeah, I get it, and I certainly do not doubt you one bit.
I really don't think punishing the killer is the way to go, either; the whole goal, to me, is to not hand a giant punishment to anyone, especially not one that the opposing side can just unilaterally control. I wish there were a way to deeply incentivize unhooks for the killer. There should ideally be something baked into the game that makes the killer want survivors to get unhooked, so they can go through three chases and three hook cycles apiece.
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Survivors are primarily responsible for camping being as big of an issue as it is. If they stopped rewarding it, it would stop being a problem
talking more doesn't make sense
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I am loving some of the points being made in this thread.
For me, I feel that there are reasons why things like “entity blocker” exist. Because there is such thing as abusing a mechanic, and while I do agree that camping can be strategic you can’t use that excuse for those who just want to permanently want to remain stationary without any sort of consequence outside of their emblem or Bps.
I mean, where are survivors suppose to get their altruism points at that point?
Im certainly not saying that the entity should blocked that camped hook but there should be like a mini kindred that activates if the killer has been at that hook for x amount of time as long as there is no other survivor present within a certain radius. Just For starters.
The more these built in mechanics are abused the more they won’t shake up the meta.
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The killer isn’t entitled to kills either?
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Indeed. I'm glad we're all in agreement.
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I like some "trusteds" here. idk why they have this status but.
Yea just do gens. it's fun being facecamped without having any chance to escape. It's even more fun if you kobe!
right into in the mkori because a single offering can skip 2 chases.
But that's how some Trusteds or Mods answer here. Instead of being "Yea you're right, this isn't fun at all. It's a boring gameplay and sth should get changed to make it more fair and a good experience" No they're acting like "It is what it is, just do this boring senseless thing and accept it"
Like. We are still playing a video game right? That's not the real world right? We're still playing games to have fun and a good experience right?
Yea it's my fault to say that something seems not okay and not fun and good at all and that I want to change it to improve the quality of the game, I am sorry.
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There's a simple fix, blood points and entity speed are terribly decreased when the killer is face camping.
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The devs have a point though. I agree that they are losing touch with the community, but the example you gave is weak sauce.
If the killer is camping then do gens and force his hands. Nothing else you can do. If you start punishing killers for camping you'll make it too easy too abuse as survivor. If they just keep rushing hook and making the killer stay near, the killer is being punished for the survivors playing bad. That's not fair. It's like spawn camping in FPS games, the devs can only do so much about it because it's not against the rules, but you can't punish people for it because sometimes you have too spawn camp.
A better example would be the constant sound bugs that the devs never fix, they just keep bandaid fixing and hope it works for another patch. Or how ridiculously fast gen speeds are going and still no change is in sight.
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So how do you define face camping? A killer being within a certain radius?
What if there are survivors there?
A killer being within a certain radius whilst no survivors are nearby?
What if they camp just outside so you have to smack them and they get the save still?
Decrease the radius and it does nothing. Increase the radius and its easily exploitable.
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As someone who plays both survivor and killer, i know the strategies for both, inside and out, and yet I still die as a survivor. I also consistently escape, and as a killer I regularly get all four kills, miss one or two, and sometimes even lose all four. A big part of the problem is people who only play one side. Those who play survivor exclusively cry that everything is weighted in the killers favor, while killers complain it's weighted in the survivors favor. But it's not. Both sides are fairly balanced (there are some exceptions to this), and honestly the only killers I see camping (and this includes the sneaky/ranged killers mentioned) are people who have either never played the game before or have never played that killer before and aren't very confident with them. That being said, camping has been a legitimate strategy from day one. It's all a matter of skill. I have had many times where a killer camped and i still managed to get the rescue. I've also been successfully rescued while being camped. The fact of the matter is, nobody is ever gonna be fully satisfied with the game, and the devs are doing their best. And before people go talking about pyramid head and his cages, he just came out two damn days ago. There's stuff that's going to change about him in time, but he can't be expected to be perfect immediately after release
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THIS. Spend less time teabagging and go do gens. And if you're going to teabag and get caught, don't whine when you get camped. Pointing at me isn't going to make me chase you, i might start but the second I heard a gen pop I'm gone and looking at the next gens. Don't be altruistic and try farming for points. Do gens, get out. I'm a killer main. My job is simple. Kill survivors. At no point does my job become cater to survivors. If I think certain survivors are going to go and be altruistic and try to save no matter how stupid an idea it is, why WOULDN'T I stay close by and just wait? Easy 2k right there and you have no one to blame but yourself for trying to farm the unhook.
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Personally, i feel like he really balances out the higher rank aspect. I'm pretty new to the game and very quickly becoming a pyramid head main simply because I keep getting thrown into matches against red rank 1s. He's definitely given me more confidence with the game because I'm no longer getting infinite looped, and his ranged attack is predictable enough that it can still be dodged simply by moving to either side. And his cages appear on the exact opposite side of the map as the killer, someone could easily run over and grab them before the killer even has a chance to get over there. I know because this happens all the time to me. I get a cage and 3 seconds later they're out.
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Agreed
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Duh, go for the cocky survivor who does the instant unhook. The cocky ones are really good at taking dumb chances and regretting it.
In this case, I usually just smack the rescuing survivor, then chase them until I hear another gen to harass. Often, they will go down beforehand. Even if a full SWF goes in for the rescue, they aren't focusing on gens. They can distract themselves with healing while I smack someone else or bust a gen.
Again, not obsessed with tryharding. Just having fun. Either way, gens are more important.
Keep busting gens, they will continue to grow more cocky which will present more opportunities to continue to wear them all down. Even if someone escapes, it is usually by the skin of their teeth.
Hopefully this works for you. I have been playing since the game released on console and have been using this tactic for quite some time. It has worked wonderfully for me, especially with some of the perks that DLC characters have contributed.
Currently, I have been favouring
Ruin
Distressing
Surveillance
(Fourth perk I change depending on my mood) usually thrill of the hunt, huntress lulluby, thanatophobia, etc.
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Already tried and abused by the survivors.
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What if the progression resumes normal speed once a survivor enters the hook proximity while the killer is also in the hook proximity?
Was this also tried?
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then killers like you arent entitled to gens going any slower
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i still dont understand how the main issue flys over everyones head everytime this comes up. who cares about the 4v1 macro aspect... its UNFUN AND UNFAIR for the person ON THE HOOK. there is little to no counterplay on your own that you can do vs face camping
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This is very true. I do a gen, chase the killer and pallet them a few times making sure to teabag each time so they will camp me on hook. My kindred lights off and my team does the rest of the gens while the fool may get a single kill for doing such. Honestly camping is a horrible tactic. As killer the only way I could make it work is using a basement+NOED run, but I reserve that for teams that look like tedious SWFs.
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The counterplay is using pallets, vaults, speed perks, every other perk in the game, stealth, blood scratch management, flashlights, bodyblocking, and actual skill to win the game instead of crying about it after you get caught. Honestly, get good. I mean that sincerely. There's no reason you should be able to fight the killer while on the hook. It's a justified position to be in if you can't make use of the enormous amount of assets already available to you.
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I completely agree with you Artemis_LH. What's funny though is when survivors try instant save tactic and you do exactly what you explained and the survivors fail miserably, they call you a camper and come on here making complaints like Op. Lately ive been having fun with the trapper and snow balling over altruistic survivors with: ruin, nurses calling, sloppy butcher, and whispers. If I can keep them from cleansing my ruin right away and popping too many gens in the early game, that build can be nasty AF and catch up on them quickly.
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kid i have almost 4k hours in survivor alone and what youre stating absolutely means nothing. everyone goes down at some point to anything at a given time or circumstance. no ones perfect, that doesnt excuse lame and lazy game design for a single person and your bias is hilarious
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oh really now? because what you stated is so bias and one sided that my statement 100000% coorelates and counters the other pov. next.
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I have 500 hours and I routinely bully killers ranked much better than me using only sprint burst and mediocre knowledge of the maps and without a SWF. All I do is exploit these zones, which due to breakable walls, are finally fixed. It was lazy design back when the maps were static and killers could get ruthlessly bullied at their own shacks on every level.
"everyone goes down at some point"
Obviously. Or no one would bother playing killer.
"kid"
I'm a 28 year old Navy vet. Not sure what image you were picturing.
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i love sub 1k hour andys thinking they know everything :)
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Let's think this through: You have 4,000hours on only survivor. I have just over 500 altogether, mostly playing killer. Probably only 200 as survivor. This means you have spent twenty times the amount of time as I have playing survivor. For every one hour of experience I have, you have twenty. You're having issues juking killers around killer's shacks, and I'm ruthlessly bullying them using one simple perk. Again: Get good.
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You're doing it wrong, too much thinking not enough buying legendary skins.
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How do we encourage killers not to camp? For example, if bbq n chili doesn't reveal anyone after a hook, why is a killer going to go across the map instead of sweeping the area around the hook?
If survivors are playing overly altruistic, why would a killer try not to take advantage of that?
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The real answer is "You identify this problem and address it at the design stage," but oops, now it's been this way for four years, and no one internally has any strong reason to advocate for a fix. I can tell you with about 99% certainty that developers who have spent many many months or years knee-deep in their game routinely become myopic about major issues, because they cannot see beyond their own perspective. At this point, face-camping is just an institutionalized problem that there is no hope of ever changing, unless Behaviour takes external feedback seriously.
I really don't know what the ideal, actionable solution is, outside of reimagining how the hide-and-seek game flow should look. I know that it can't be a post-game currency reward, it can't be specific to a perk or any other optional loadout item, and it has to be something so compelling that it overpowers any instinct to face-camp just to ruin someone's day and secure a single kill regardless of other mechanics.
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It's amusing when I get salt mail from survivors when I security guard a survivor that took me 5 minutes to catch because he was juking around like Torvill and Dean. Why the heck would I walk off and let him juke me for 5 minutes more? I'm a killer not an entertainer 😅
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Tell me then mr. Know it all, what exactly do you think taking hostage is in dbd? since you clearly seem to know better than every one else. Explain to me why the term is wrong, why it wouldn't fit or why the very people that made up the term seem to have got it wrong, why the devs and the comunity seem to have given it another meaning (according to you). Because you keep talking as if you know something the rest of us don't. You can't just give a new meaning to a term like that depending on where it's being used, it doesn't work that way. Also just because you say something wasn't said it doesn't mean that it actually wasn't, just like how you (most likely) upvoting your own comments doesn't actually mean people agree with you, but then again it probably makes sense that you would say that since your first response to my comment was a hostile assumption that I was a kid, now who's acting childish?
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But see that' where I was trying to get, you said it yourself the survivors can't force the killer to play a certain way, yet that's the excuse that most of the sweaty campers use "the survivors forced me to camp when they got close to the hook to try and rescue" or "the survivors forced me to camp when they genrushed me for 3 gens" neither are true because they chose to camp because they wanted an easy kill (which I can only condone myself only when the gates are powered and you have no kills) and what bothers me is when they act like they didn't have a choice and when others defend them even though they did have a choice just like they can decide not to tunnel or slug, yet they still do and they still come to the forums preaching to the survivors that they had no choice. Like I said I can condone those 3 things only when the survivors are about to escape and you still have no kills but otherwise I can't agree with doing any of those things. The only other time I would condone doing one of those is when you find a recently unhooked player while he was being healed and you down him but still chase the one that was healing, you'de be spugging the first guy but at least you didn't tunnel him which is way worse
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Sure I agree with what you're saying just like I agree that it's not an easy fix based on so many factors, but it's like I said to another guy on this very discussion, I actually can condone camping, slugging or tunneling on very specific circumstances but other than that I can't agree with the fact that they later say that they had no choice, they did and they chose to do that when they didn't have to yet they still had the rest of the game to try and get kills but they chose to, early on, camp someone to death which is completely uncalled for and also dettering to their odds of getting more kills, it's not a smart play to camp early on which is what most campers do and it's also really scummy to do especially with how bad matchmaking has gotten over the past year, I mean can you imagine being in a que for 30 minites just to not play at all, like imagine it the other way around how would it feel if the killer couldn't do absolutely nothing during the game because the survivors just decided to dc for example, the killer spent probably 20-30 minutes looking for a game and they didn't just get nothing out of it, they also had no chance to even play.
Sorry btw for how long winded this comment might seem but I felt like it had to be said
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But see all you did was mention 1 of multiple ways to take something hostage in the game, in case you haven't noticed in none of my comments I related it to tunneling or slugging specifically, when I mentioned slugging that was a very good example of the game ending in an unatural way there is nothing natural of blocking all means of exit by exploiting their conditions to open in the first place, also when I mentioned taking hostage I never said specifically the term taking THE GAME hostage unless I talked about something that is reportable like the aformentioned slugging second to last survivor, others might be redifigning the term but in this case nobody did because in the case of camping, the killer is literally protecting the hooked survivors from their would be rescuers which is the exact same as a hostage situation (like in tv for example) where they are doing that to get some sort of advantage or to get something out of it.
I'll admit I didn't know about the upvote thing because I myself have never tried it, but good to know you have though since that further solidifies my acusation especially when all of your comments seem to always get one really fast especially with the fact that upvoting something is bassically pointless and that this discussion isn't exactly new anymore and also that some of your comments are further out on the pages of this discussion. But then again what would I know since according to you I'm a kid, but then again you might be one since you're saying really lame stuff like "worry not young grasshopper, your schooling is complete. Go forth with the knowledge you have been enlightened with." and putting little smiley faces at the end of what you wright, and immidiately calling someone else kid when you feel the need to be someone older when nobody had taken a shot at you... I mean it's either that or you're just childish wich is worse, either way how about you go take a nap since you clearly seem cranky
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Honestly I don't know why I even bother with people like you, no matter what anyone might say, even if a dev themself would tell you you're wrong you wouldn't admit it. Neither one of us opened the discusion because you started this when you said you found it amusing how people confuse what is actually hostage taking in response to someone else and I responded to you by pointing out that they aren't actually wrong based on the term's definition even if it isn't exactly how the devs would define it on a reason to report it, but there actually is more than one way to take hostage in dbd and more than one way to do it and deem a report, it's not people trying to make that conection when the conection is fairly obvious, and just because the devs gave 1 example of a way to take the game hostage it doesn't mean that it's the only way of taking anything hostage in the game.
I gotta agree though it has been amusing, but no for the same reasons, it's been amusing simply because you are the perfect example of the typical killer main that's so stubborn to realize that a lot of your fellow killer mains maybe even yourself like to take advantage of how poorly designed this game is and then try to defend themselves for doing so while undermining the survivors opinions on how horribly unfair this game can be for both sides. Now I really don't care if you respond again or not because to be honest this discussion is getting nowhere. Btw for anyones that is wondering I am neither a survivor or a killer main because I like playing both sides and I can understand the concerns of both sides but I cant agree with most of the stuff people cry about on this forum on a daily basis including how camping is always justified just because the devs can't do anything about it
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The devs have said that a hostage situation is one where one or more players are behaving in such a way that the game will not end unless the other player(s) disconnect. Slugging, for example, has a fixed time limit of 4 minutes. Bodyblocking the two remaining survivors in a corner before the EGC starts, on the other hand, can go on forever.
That's the definition the devs use. You can disagree with their usage of the term, but this is what they mean when they say "holding the game hostage".
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When a killer has to facecamp, he usually is really bad. You are even worse cause you got caught by him.
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You act like I don't know what it's like to be camped. Dude, I have over 2k hours in this game at this point amd I'm devotion 9. I've seen it all. I've never asked for things to be skewed one way or the other because I obviously enjoy playing and don't want the game to go to utter #########. I'm going to call out bs when I see it because I'm not letting some false narrative dictate the direction this game ends up going in.
I agreed when Ghostface came out that he got exposed too easily. I've agreed that noed is fine as is. I can't fathom why people protect face camping so vehemently as if that's fun for anyone involved or should be an acceptable way to play every game.
I agree that was stupid of them to do in that scenario, but I can't be expected to control what other people do. If I knew someone was getting face camped that hard? Sorry, but unless I have BT (which I never bother running) and knew I could get the save, I'm not coming just to give him another kill he doesn't deserve.
I don't typically play in a 4 man and if you ever have, you'd know people don't listen to reason. They see a teammate struggling to death who also wishes to be able to play who's probably asking for help. It's awful to have to ignore that because you know in the end it'll cost you more than it's worth, but if you want actual progress you have to ignore it. In the end if everyone complied you get a max of 3 gens done typically and that's basically if all conditions are perfect.
That said, I don't feel like I should have to be explaining why it shouldn't be okay for someone to face camp you to death on your first hook with little to no gens done and this brings us back to the fact that we shouldn't be the ones having to balance the game out for them. We shouldn't be tasked with punishing killers for doing something they shouldn't be or do you want more perks like DS for people to complain about?
I don't know about you, but I rarely ever jump on the first gen I see. That's how you get three gen'd or snuck up on because you have no awareness of the map you're on or what you're up against.
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this post is big oof.
I don't think you read my whole post because you would know that I mentioned travel time and also mentioned that my math wasn't including it nor was it including positive bonuses as well like toolboxes or great skill checks. The post is also on the basis that no progress has been made on any gens. In reality the likelihood of a gen going off before a down is pretty high. If its a good chase than maybe 2 or 3 gens. You posit that the camper is guaranteed at the very least a 2k. This is simply not true. if the camper gets a down off of an unsafe hook and the person doesn't even get the person off , or gets them off with no armor like Borrowed time, that's called being bad at survivor and a really bad teammate at that. them going down is not a direct result of the camper but a direct result of their poor play. They had to make the decision to play poorly for them to be downed in the first place.
You make a lot of assumptions about how the game will go depending on the amount of survivors and the fact is you cant know for certain what will happen. It' is entirely possible to finish 2 gens with only 2 people alive, I know because I have done it and I'm not even that good of a survivor player, rank 6 is the highest I've ever been. I'll let you in on a little secret though, killers who camp are generally not that good because camping is a sign of either toxicity or they are not confident enough in there ability to get multiple downs before gens are done.
Your response is based off of stated assumptions on how people will play. Mine is simply based on math, its not exact math because of aforementioned things but it is still sound at its core. Your solution is still bad because it still gives survivors way too much time to do gens without worrying about their teammate dying. It's rewarding people for bad play when they could instead punish the camper by doing gens. Your stating that devs need to be able to in game punish those who camp, im stating that the game has already given you guys the tools to do so.
You're saying the issue comes down for non sfw teams at a lack of information. lets fix that. A true solution to this would be to instigate an internal timer that lets survivors know through a sound/visual notification if the killer has stayed by hook outside of a chase for lets say 10 seconds within 16 meters of the hook. You could even instigate a hidden regression mechanic on the timer so that if the killer leaves the decided radius that's declared as "camping" but keeps coming back the meter will only have gone down a bit and be much closer to the alert status than when the timer started and give the notification when full again. there, that solution forces survivors whether or not they are on comms to not be ignorant to what's going on in match for a very specific "problem".
Frankly I would rather have the devs focus on other things like actual bug fixes and server side hit detection. grabs of gens are still broken on both sides, sound is more messed up then it has ever been and makes wearing headphones as a killer a joke because the sound doesn't work most the time. Pallet vacuuming is still an issue and being hit well after vaulting something is still an issue. The new map has way too many god pallets and also too many pallets not worth looping because of how unsafe they are. Id frankly like my game to function as optimally as possible before they start working on specific gameplay balances. Hell as a killer main I would absolutely take having toolboxes be reverted to their former broken status if they could just fix the sound.
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I know I'm saying that that isn't the only way though because yeah slugging has a time limit but it's still 4 minutes that the killer has the freedom to hunt the other one without the posibility for escape, also the goal the survivors have at that point is them both escaping which is impossible if the killer is keeping heavy preasure so the last survivor standing has to keep trying to revive the downed survivor or the downed survivor has to dc to give the other the chance at escape
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A killer face camping is a personal "screw you" message to the survivor on the hook. It's irritating, but it's entirely within the rules and I don't think the game could be re balanced to punish face camping without breaking everything. I just take the de-pip and hope that the next game is better whenever it happens to me.
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Well, you're wrong. 4 minutes can't go on forever. That's not holding the game hostage. The downed survivor can just bleed out and die.
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As a killer main in lower ranks I can actually attest this. I do have to wait 15-20 minutes at times for games with red ranks (I'm like rank 17) when I get looped for 5 minutes by a red rank as a relatively new killer, yes I will face camp. It is more efficient to deal with them then, than having to chase them around again. As long as low rank killers have to deal with red rank survivors I will say face camping is fine. Once their ranking system and matchmaking system is fixed to actually put you against people in your skill elo, it would be a different story.
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