Does NOED really need to be nerfed?
I mean, given all the survivors crutch perks, I don't really see how NOED is game breaking.
It seems like every match people want to dog on me for using it and complain about how OP it is.
Do you think BHVR is ever going to nerf it? I think it's fine the way it is.
All things considered it's usually a saving grace when everyone is running DS, Unbreakable, and gen rushing me back to the Entity's dimension.
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The issue is that people feel like if you use NOED and end up with only getting kills after it activates, then you are being rewarded for not doing that well at the game and the survivors are not being rewarded for doing well at the game.
I can see using NOED if you are new, but after that, in its current state, it feels like a crutch.
Small changes to it would make it feel less like a cheap way to turn a loss into a win. I've seen many suggestions over the years, here are my favorite:
- The exposed status only lasts for 60 secs.
- The totem is lit the entire match.
- A totem counter is added to the UI for all players.
I'm sure there will be posts imminently saying, "Well, you can't nerf NOED without nerfing Adrenaline." I honestly don't care if they nerf Adrenaline. They can if they want. I don't like perks that are situational and encourage not healing anyway.
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I myself am a survivor main and I run a loadout that uses-
No mither, soul guard, unbreakable and Tenacity. so I’m pretty much one it anyway. But if I ran this loadout without No mither And kept the other 3 perks soul guard will always help me especially with the fact because NOED puts an effect on me allowing me to get all the way up without need of another survivor and it gives me deep wound if hit which preventing and instant down from NOEDs effect. So in my opinion NOED is fine and not op if u have a problem with NOED run (soul guard) it will help a lot especially if they slug u while affected by the hex
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I think it needs to be reworked entirely tbh.
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NOED is a reward for failing at your task as a killer. I don't even run Adrenaline and it could be nerfed to hell for all I care but it's in no way comparable to NOED because, unlike NOED, it's a reward for actually managing to do what you're supposed to, which is repairing gens.
The only thing that I think can be compared to NOED is the hatch. Both show up when the game is about to end and when whichever side has failed at their tasks (doing gens & escaping/stopping survivors from doing gens & escaping). And you can easily see how unbalanced the whole thing is because only one survivor can benefit from the hatch (not taking keys into account here because that's a whole separate issue) whereas NOED affects all survivors. If the killer is lucky or plays scummy enough they can get a 4K from NOED, survivors will never get a 4 man escape from the hatch (not-taking-keys-into-account-OK). Of course one could argue that if the killer gets a 4K out from NOED that's because of survivor mistakes, but still the possibility is there, with the hatch it's not. And there's also the fact that the hatch is built-in every match, whereas NOED is a hex-perk, but I'm just talking about game-mechanics that reward players for failing at their tasks, not making an in-depth analysis about the whole thing.
But yeah tl;dr imo it should be nerfed.
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"The issue is that people feel like if you use NOED and end up with only getting kills after it activates, then you are being rewarded for not doing that well at the game and the survivors are not being rewarded for doing well at the game."
this can be said for so many perks on both sides that the argument is null.
Self care means you not doing well too.
In addition, noed has already been nerfed into what it is, so asking for it to be nerfed in general is a null argument.
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Seems like most killers are fine with it, and most survivors hate it.
But most killers hate DS, and most survivors are fine with that... so Idk.
There are always gonna be perks the opposite side dislikes.
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Personally, I despise the perk and believe it needs a change. I believe, from my own experience, that NOED is a crutch for many bad killers who need it to do well in high ranks.
But I don't think it needs a nerf. NOED usually crushes solo teams but SWF are able to co-ordinate and prevent it from happening; the exact teams killers "need" NOED for it doesn't even work on. This is pretty stupid.
Instead give solo survivors a totem counter. In base-kit (or in Small Game could work but let's not give solos yet another perk that gives SWF info for free). Make Solo lives great again.
I made a pretty long thread about my exact thoughts on the perk and how I'd change it here, read it if you want:
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Terrible suggestions.
Might as well cancel the perk.
It's fine as is, don't gen rush and even then it has many counters.
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Ah the "crutch perk" angle,... - a form of bullying used by players to shame users of a perk, this of course coming from a Claudette with self care accusing killers of running a "crutch" and hold zero weight in a discussion.
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Yes, the crutch perk angle, coming from the person who used it as a crutch perk. When I say experience, I mean me using it.
Also, not quite. This of course coming from the rank 1 killer player who enjoys both sides (though I'm currently rank 2 survivor unfortunately). This coming from the person who likes Claudette and how she looks and so has her as the forum pfp. Don't believe me, here you go:
I've had this discussion before and I'll say it again; don't judge people off of who they have as their forum pfp. Want to see me play killer for 4 hours? Twitch.tv/KareBoyKaru, check out the VOD from yesterday. Didn't have a single survivor game. But sure I hold no weight to the discussion and only play survivor.
Also here's my current favourite survivor build:
Kept in the name & rank so you know that it's me. Not a self-care in sight.
But no, toxic entitled survivor main whining about NOED.
EDIT: Let's not forget I just wanted a solo QOL buff, and then said that NOED didn't even need a nerf. Man I love you and your comments but this ain't it chief.
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It is totally fine. Unfortunately we survivors just love to complain and cry.
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Not really nerfed, it can stay a strong Endgame Perk.
But let it reward the Killer for doing well into the game and not give him something while sucking the whole time. And remove the Hex-Status so that Survivors dont have to waste time for a Perk the Killer might not even have.
Something like each Hook grants 0,5% Movement Speed and 8 Hooks grant the Exposed-Effect. So a Killer who actually manages to achieve something in the game will have benefit from NOED. And it would also be less attractive for Campers, currently a Camper gets basically a 2K because of NOED, since there is no time to fix 5 Gens and cleanse 5 Totems while the one guy gets camped.
If NOED gets changed like I wrote, the Camper would only get a really minor Benefit.
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NOED is fine as it is, the killer is going to be running only 3 perks for the entirety of the match. If NOED was removed cleansing dull totens would lose it's purpose. I personally run small game in every one of my matches because doing totens gives loads of points and I LOVE mocking the killer for using NOED after we cleansed all 5 totens. If you don't like NOED just use a map or run small game like myself.
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Forgive me, the "noed is a crutch" triggers me, and I do not see it as a valuable angle of discussion. It's simply a tactic used to shame other players and has zero constructive input in regards to the perk.
Noed has been nerfed and adjusted multiple times into what it is today, with both survivors and killers having ways to run "endgame builds" - on survivors I run wake up, adrenaline, hope builds regularly, but I also used to run Blood Warden Freddy when I mained him and grew so tired of the "noed is a crutch" threads over the past 3 years. Shaming someone for running an endgame build in a game that supports that playstyle seems silly to me. Id Blood Warden a crutch too?
Everyone runs a perk that could be considered "crutch"
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I feel the same way about DS. Killers feels if you escaped because of that perk then you probably shouldn't have escaped in the first place. NOED has a solid counter. DS has none unless your PH. Slugging can be countered by running unbreakable. Don't tunnel is not an option because survivors with DS active have a habit of running INTO the killer because they know they have a get out of jail free card. Both perks IMO are crutches but the difference is DS tends to get a pass because of so many people whining about tunneling.
As for the OP, NOED is fine. Looking at Billy's recent rework that doesn't mean they won't nerf it anyway.
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I know that it's annoying but I promise I have actual reasoning for me calling it a crutch.
Back in the days of old when I started playing I used NOED and never removed the perk. I'd been carried up to higher ranks than I should've been by it, and got no kills (sometimes not even a down) until it activated, at which point I'd camp and prey on altrustic survivors. This was back with the Victory Cube.
I managed to get myself perma-banned thanks to VAC and since then turned over a clean slate. Not dont anything that could even remotely trigger VAC or EAC, and I've been completely legit for ages. I didn't use NOED and wanted to see how far I could get without it. I started learning to mindgame effectively, learned how to split pressure, which perks were good for whom. Enduring/Spirit Fury (when it came out_ used to be my best friend and I loved the combo on people right up until the Freddy Rework and I learned how to Wraith Super Lunge(tm).
Obviously you can be an amazing player and use NOED. You can use NOED in a build focused around endgame. But I see so many bad killer boosted up to higher ranks because of the perk, and that's why I believe it to be a crutch perk, because it well and truly was a crutch for me. Without it I couldn't play.
I promise, when I call something a crutch perk, there's proper reasoning behind it; not just spewing it left and right.
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NOED doesn't need a nerf, it needs a complete overhaul that rewards good killers with the power of perma-bloodlust 1 and instadowns, without the moronic "counterplay" that is totem cleansing. Right now it absolutely sucks and takes literally zero effort to use. I'm not kidding, it activates if you just go make a sandwich. That makes no sense. And it's "counterplay" is stronger than the perk itself, even assuming that the perk is in the trial. That also makes no sense.
A "nerf" removes power. NOED's power is fine, it's it's activation requirements that are nonsensical. Seriously, imagine how awesome the perk would be if it only activated after you hooked 6-8 people with 0-1 deaths. Or something similar to that. It would literally reward letting survivors go so they can survive til the gens are done, how awesome would that be for the health of the game.
Edit: Activation AND deactivation requirements are nonsensical.
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It doesn't need nerfed it needs reworked
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All those rubbish crutch perks need to go IMO
I will say this in the DS vs NOED debate
if I am a new player who just bought the game which of the 2 perks can I get first without purchasing anything?
and if I I don't purchase anything and play the game vanilla which of the 2 said perks is available and which is not?
One is a crutch from the very start the other is a purchased crutch.
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NOED is a C tier perk. You're playing 1 perk down the majority of the game for a chance of some downs when survivors are a hair away from escaping.
While NOED Is used mostly by trash killers I also find that people who find NOED troublesome usually play like idiots during endgame, Rushing hooked survivors, rushing and just waiting at gates, running out in the open in a straight line towards gate, no looping etc.
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If someone is using noed on clown okay fine, clown is bad he needs it. But when someone is using iri head huntress or stridor spirit with strongest perk/addon combo and mori AND noed on top that's just disgusting.
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Well, one could argue that bad players shouldnt be playing against high ranks in the first place. But as they do, yes, they need something to boost them.
And make solo lifes great again can´t happen as long as the devs need to balance between solos and swf. They just need to split solo and swf play and rebalance both modes. If the match against solos is as balanced as against swf, there is also no reason not to play vs swf.
Also, i dont get the argument that noed rewards bad killers for failing their objective. Their objective is to kill the survivors. How exactly is it rewarding them for not killing anyone?
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No, it doesn't. Survivors just need to cleanse totems.
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You know the killers objective isnt to defend generators? Its to kill everyone so nope it doesnt reward the killer for failing.
Also do bones.
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Yeah, and that's a matchmaking issue which will hopefully be fixed soon. Hardly optimistic since they said June and it's currently July but, ya know.
"Make solo lives great again can't happen as long as the devs need to balance between solos and swf." That's what I said, a totem counter. To help solos know how many totems remain on the map, bringing them a step closer to being equal to swf. Once solos and SWF are closer in power, the devs can superbuff killers and everyone can be happy.
"i dont get the argument that noed rewards bad killers for failing their objective. Their objective is to kill the survivors. How exactly is it rewarding them for not killing anyone?"
It's less rewarding them for not doing their objective as it's giving them a massive powerspike at endgame. Which, go for it. I don't have an issue with the perk so long as solos get a reliable way to count totems without needing to dedicate another perk to getting info SWF have for free. If NOED gets used in endgame builds? Cool. If it's used by great killers? Great. If it's used by bad killers? Sure. But make solo survivors' lives less of a living hell first & give them a totem counter so they know if their teammates are doing totems or not.
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Well, i play solo survivor most of the time, and usually i just do all totems myself. There are a limited number of totem spots, and you can check them while going to an unhook or the next gen. Usually, it works for me. (but i was hit by noed after doing 4 totems too. it happens)
Also, i would like seperate lobbys better than bringing solos to swf level. The game is balanced around a lack of information, and i like that. Just adding more information to boost solos is therefore the wrong way (for me). But sure, its another way to balance.
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noed is fine cause it can be deactivated before it even activates. like there are 5 totems if every survivor atleast does 1 totem it would probably not even activate. like i play solo survivor and it suprises me how i can do 4 totems and then still get hit with noed cause some teammates just do gens so i get the people complaining about it. but the reality is the reason you get hit by noed is not the killers fault but your teammates
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Rank doesn't mean anything in this game LOL are you unaware of matchmaking?
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Oh okay so me being a rank 20 means my argument is as credible as a rank 1?
Just gonna ignore the rest of it, the 4 hour livestream, me playing mostly killer when I do stream unless a friend wants to swf, nope focus on the rank.
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Okay, legit, I don't even think this perk needs a nerf. I don't even say that because I'm a killer main, literally I don't even like using it. I feel what it needs is adjustment to help it feel more fair.
I absolutely agree that it's annoying as heck to be on the receiving end of, especially against killers that have the ability to cause damage from basically anywhere if they set up well(looking at you, Mr. Macmillan). At the same time, despite it being enabling for killers in endgame, I really don't find it very fun to use. There's not much nuance involved with using it, it's just an endgame super-buff. Because it's the end of the game, as well, you really don't have much time to play around with its effects, either. When the gates are powered, you have to down. It's not like you can just wait for a good situation to use your insta-down and risk the entire team escaping instantly. What I really want from NOED is more nuance, because right now it's a bit... boring? For both sides, too. For survivors, the best counter-play is cleansing every totem on what are basically hunches. For killers, it's only in the relatively inflexible endgame do you get your awesome abilities, meaning it's a pretty sloppy rush to get as many downs as possible. I feel there needs to be more strategy, more counter-play, and more nuance.
I made a separate thread in Feedback and Suggestions about all the hex perks, and I suggested for NOED that it's totem and or effects become active when 1 gen is left, rather than endgame. I really don't know if that would help it feel more fair or give it more strategy, but I see a lot of potential for interesting emergent gameplay in making it active earlier than it is currently, because right now it's not flexible for the killer and borderline unfun to play against as survivor. And, yeah, naturally, you could infer that I'm the kind of killer that wants flexibility. I don't think everyone wants killers to have too much of that, so I feel this is a good compromise. Try as you might, though, I have a good feeling that it's gonna be hard to please everyone with a perk so game-defining.
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I'm the bones doer from every match I get into buddy. To the point that my friends usually joke about it whenever they see a totem, they go like "huh there's a totem here COME QUICKLY!!!" And I still think NOED should be nerfed. I agree that a lot of survivors are ######### and won't do the damn bones, though. Today I walked by a bunch of gens that had already been done by other survivors and the perfectly visible totems standing next to them were still there, standing.
Also, the main objective of the killer is to kill, of course, if you fail to kill the survivors then the gens get done ---thus, if all the gens have been completed, you're failing at your task. If you kill everyone fast then the gens won't pop :P :P :P
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NoED only really sucks when the killer camps. Also when you get a map where totems are really hard to find. Yeah, you can run Detective's Hunch. But even with that I've missed ONE totem before. And of course got downed by NoED. (I still managed to escape, but that's not really the point.)
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Well, you shouldnt ignore the experience a player has, and i believe rank does mean something. While it is easy to get in high ranks, there are still people who cant do that (as killer mostly), and thats because they lack skill (to keep up with their matches, often due to the said bad matchmaking).
But streaming is an argument for nothing, there are a lot of streamers who lack competence. Talking about corona on tv doesnt make trump a scientist, streaming their games and commenting doesnt make a streamer good or especially insightfull.
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No, the killer failed if the survivor escape, not if they finished gens. There are endgame builds, you know.
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Noed is stupidly strong but counterable. adrenaline on the oher hand...
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Dunno dont get the feeling its that strong
Like you just gotta do the unlit totems there are only 5 in a map not 15, and some games it will help, some games it wont thats how it goes, ans most of the time you can guess which killer uses it.
Beside now that most of the killed run corrupt intervention, there is no excuse to not use some time to make totems
And i think Noed isnt a perk for "when you failed your task" si since a good amount of the game is still played AFTER that the gens are repaired so it can always help
Beside you can counter Noed by cleaning the totems, but you cant counter an adrenaline that will pop even if the survivor is hooked
Killer 2nd chances perks (for the fiew they have) can mostly be countered, survivors cant but lets not talk about that here there are enough topics about those perks lol
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I meant the fact that because ei streamed it you could see how I play and thus make a judgement from there.
Again can I remind people I said NOED didn't need a nerf solos just needed a totem counter.
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You can always just open the door and leave, or is this too difficult to understand?
The only people that cry about noed are cheat with "friends" discord abusers because you can't end game bully the killer and decisive strike your way out the door.
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My Opinion
My only gripe against NOED is that it leeches from solo queue and makes the experience even worse.
You'll have the entire team looking for totems that's already cleansed due to poor communication and that gives the killer plenty of time to snowball against decent teams.
However, it wouldn't be fair to nerf NOED because it's not the perk's fault — it's the poor communication solo queue has. Therefore, I'd like either a totem counter or a cool indicator of when a totem is destroyed. 😅
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It’s pretty easily countered. I usually go into every match assuming NOED is being ran. See a dull totem? Take the time to cleanse it. Or bring a map or perk to track them down if you struggle to find them on your own. I don’t think it needs to be nerfed.
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But you still can kill everyone of all gens are completet. So where did the killer fail?
Also you forgot something important.
Just because you sometimes cant do everything alone, it doesnt mean it needs a nerf. Its a team game, where you and your mates have to work together to survive. If they dont do it, sure it sucks for you, but that doesnt mean it needs changes.
How to you think would the killer have a chance if the survivors could do EVERYTHING solo?
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Here are my 2 cents about the whole NOED craze. This is solely based on my experience in playing both survivor (SV) and killer.
What it means for a killer to run NOED:
The killer plays the majority of the match with 3 perk slots in hopes and dreams that the SVs rather mess around and/or solely focus on gens (yes, totems are not decor). 1 of 3 things will happen eventually:
a) The killer is exceptionally dominant throughout the trial and kills every SV before the last gen is done. Alternatively, he kills 3, and the last one gets the hatch. In this case, NOED didn't matter, and the killer was limited to 3 perks.
b) The killer failed to protect the gens, and the exit gates got powered. However, the SVs were smart and cleansed 5 totems (by default 5x14 seconds for up to 4 SVs to manage). Alternatively, they didn't cleanse totems but found the hex right away, and the killer loses their perk immediately. In this case, NOED didn't matter, and the killer was limited to 3 perks.
c) If NOED activates, the killer gets a second chance and may or may not wreck the SVs' whole game. No one escaped death! Well kind of. SVs can still destroy the hex at some point. Sometimes you secured one kill, sometimes you get all 4. At other times you get none, because SVs evaded you, map RNG, or whatever. In this case, the perk mattered at the end of the trial to some extend. It depends.
Did the killer "fail" their tasks when the last gen is done?
No! The killer has to prevent SVs from escaping the match. Protecting gens is an effective way to guarantee this, but it isn't the sole objective. The trial is over when the last SV has escaped or died. If 5 gens done was a defeat for the killer, the match would end right there, and the SVs win. This is not the case. This mentality is a made-up codex, primarily propagated by SV mains that think their personal opinion and choice of playstyle should be considered as a rule. The gatekeeper emblem makes only 25% of the killers "tasks", it takes more to displease the entity.
What makes NOED frustrating to play against?
I personally only get stressed out when I play solo q. I have to do gens, rescue teammates, and cleanse up to 5 totems because I can't trust random teammates to cleanse. Meanwhile, my mates self-care somewhere, flicker flashlights, or are immersed to the point that the crows are almost coming. This happens at all ranks. I play red ranks currently, and it is rarely different. On a one-on-one, this makes NOED extremely unfair. What does this mean for the SV: Their actions matter! They should expect the worst. At all times. It is a 4v1 for a reason.
So ... does NOED really need to be nerfed?
I don't think so. But we should consider the solo q experience. I'd propose the following:
Dull Totems Matter: We need an indicator for both SVs and killers that a dull totem was cleansed, like an echo / muffled thunder instead of the big one that you hear when a hex gets cleansed. No location should be revealed to anyone unless it is due to a perk. That way, people can tally up the totem count in their minds if they are attentive.
For the Hatch Game: NOED only activates when the last gen is repaired by a SV – not when the hatch is being closed. Since it should be the SV's responsibility to cleanse totems, we can't apply this logic to when 3 SVs are dead, and the last one gets the hatch closed by the killer. The end game is already practically a death sentence when the killer closes the hatch. They don't need NOED on top of that. And the game already got cut short, how should the SV have cleansed all totems by then?
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TL/DR: NOED needs no nerf, but the totem game should be manageable for a solo q as much as for an SWF. Hatch closing should not trigger NOED.
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Why you would nerf a killer perk when survivors are in their greatest state since the game was released.
I understand that Noed rewards you for not playing well, but also do DS, BT and DH.
It feels so good to run Noed when survivors just rush 5 gens in 4 minutes. I would keep it as it is. If the perk gets more popular they will start running small game and destroying totems, which will slow down the fastest meta we ever played.
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NOED users= Weak/lazy players. Knowing from the loading screen that they going to loose. Pathetic.
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If they lost (it's "lose", BTW, not "loose"), why did the survivors die?
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Survivors have never been weaker.
You wanna tell me no bloodlust, no exhaustion, god loops, no entity blocker, more pallets (have you seen old Blood Lodge??), two windows/two pallets per jungle gym, t-l walls having pallets, old asylum, old bnps, and old insta-heals were all weaker than what survivors have currently?
I disagree.
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Agree, only noobs will complain about noed, it is fine, just do bones. It is just like everyone is injured when 5 gen are done, giving a fair chance for killer to get 1 to 2 kills while losing unfairly. Survivor already have ds and other meta perks, it is balanced. Only players who play both sides will understand noed is balanced.
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I don't think it is and I play both sides.
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Yes.
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I'm a survivor main and I think it is.
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