The DS/NOED argument
This is what I find strange about the whole DS/NOED argument.
I would personally like NOED reworked slightly to be honest (maybe there is no speed boost initially and 1 insta-down triggers a cooldown of 1 minute but gives an even larger speed boost during the cooldown - I am open to ideas just think it kind of sucks for solo Q as they don't have a bones counter).
That said, at low rank killers tunnel a lot more than at higher rank, because high rank killers know that tunneling a survivor can lead to loss of a gen or two (even the match in some cases - though I am not saying tunneling one person doesn't happen at higher ranks).
Interesting thing is that most of the high rank killers I see don't run NOED, but a lot of the high rank survivors run DS. Plus the DS is used a lot more aggressively (hook rushing/tagging in for a survivor being chased/body blocking etc.) than when it used at lower ranks. I am not against the perk being for anti-tunneling (defensively) but given that its a second chance perk why does it synergise so well with other second chance perks like unbreakable.
I remember they nerfed forever Freddy (and rightly so as he was a *bad word* to play against - even I tried him and felt bad after), though a point the Devs (and @Peanits can correct me) made is that they didn't want certain slowdown perks to synergise so well with each other and also with his or other add ons. Shouldn't this be the case with second chance perks? Exhaustion perks aren't run together for the same reason (except adrenaline).
Scott's video on the DS/UB combo below (he called it Small PP survivor build LOL)
P.S. I play both sides (60/40 to killer currently, though it changes the other way often too). I have tried them but I don't run either NOED or DS in my builds.
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Oni spawns on map. I walk out as big stronk Dwight. Oni turn around and go after children and women.
Who has the samll pp now?
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Hahaaa leave my Bam Bam alone
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I won't play either perk myself.
They are both strong perks that reward failure. And give you an unearned advantage.
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I dont consider DS the same. Its just so survivors dont spend their game being hit and hooked 5 seconds after leaving the hook.
I’d put exhaustion perks more along the lines of NOED, sprint burst and dead hard especially. These are all perks that boost mediocre players. I see so many Claudettes with sprint burst, urban evade around all game with a character thats hard to spot, if you do get caught you just boost to the nearest safe zone. Easily adds a fair bit of time onto a chase little skill required.
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I think DS as defensive perk is fine. When its used offensively and along with certain perks then it becomes an issue. Maybe it needs the change which Scott suggested in his video.
I personally I am more bold in my decision making when I use DS and it gets me or my teammates into trouble, which is why I stopped using it. Knowing that I had it made me play way worse because I knew I had a safety net and would make silly plays.
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Thanks for the honesty.
I think that is the problem many killers have with DS. People play cocky with it, knowing they have this immunity. Which doesn't really fit the theme of survival horror.
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theres an even smoler pp build: ds+unbreakable+soul guard (+dh/tenacity)
being invincible for 60s, getting slugged and the endurance effect if you pick urself up. Probably the strongest synergy of survivor perks rn and almost guarantees an escape if all gens are done.
There were a lot of good suggestions about ds and it needs a few smaller tweaks / downsides (like deactivating if you got slugged and picked up / picked urself up, if you got healed to healthy or if you unhook someone etc.)
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So your telling me that me getting 9 hooks and using it with blood wardan to get the 12 means I failed?
Cause you 12 hook most games right? Cause I try for it every time.
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If the exit gates are open, then you technically lost already. Which is why opening them as a killer to start the EGC is a way to concede the match.
I have done end game builds with blood warden, NOED and bitter murmur before too (blood warden when it did proc was funny as hell), though I don't think it is something I would do on a regular basis because I prefer trying to win before the gens are powered. Its hard to 12 hook every time and we aren't supposed to be able to every game.
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Yeah, Policing someone's playstyle isn't already smol pp behavior.
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i have started running DS now, mostly due to the lack of others equipping it and the game ending up with no obsession - which then leads to the killer starting to hardtunnel anyone previously unhooked and playing in a super unfun way. so just to ensure we have an obsession and the killer is playing nice, i equip it.
however that doesnt mean i'd force myself on the killer with BT, DS and Unbreakable to be a toxic little #########, i try to be as not toxic as possible in my games after all - while simultaneously punishing those that are acting toxic towards me by insta tunneling me down.
NOED on the other hand is a perk i almost never use.
but thats not because it "rewards failure", was a "crutch perk for baby killers" or generally something i'd consider to be too strong to run - its quite the opposite, really.
i dont run NOED, because i think its a terrible perk. i am forced to play a trial with only 3 perks and the 4th one i have is 100% counterable by the survivors to never activate, PLUS can be destroyed extremely easily like any other HEX before i could make any real usage of it. its super inconsistent and therefore not worth picking over the other perks i run, which i can rely on and which will not let me down.
though when i see a genrush SWF that just outright ignores every totem, i wish i had it. just to punish them for genrushing like that, not giving a ######### about anything else.
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No I don't 12 hook most games, it is very hard to 4k at red ranks 12 hooking. And is not the most efficient strategy.
I probably 9 hook most 4k games.
Your example is extremely different from most noed killers I have seen. Most tend to 1 or 2 hook all game and rely on No Ones Even Dead yet to get 1 kill.
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Is failure running the killer for 3 gens then getting camped and tunneled?
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No that seems like you did awesome.
But if you are referring to DS, you lost another chase and now get rewarded for it.
Tunneling sux, but if this was the case, you probably got 3 out, which is a win
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Honestly I can agree to what you are saying alot of bad survivors try to rush me with ds but do horribly so they have another 2 second chase. But the point I was going for is that the 3 gen run or a long chase in general is usually my situation I'm pretty good but some killers do not leave long chases and I'm forced to pay when i inevitably go down so I run ds.
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Yeah, I can understand that as well, especially playing solo.
With good teammates you have a better chance of not being farmed and of someone taking hits if you are being tunneled.
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What if there is no bt and wait that I frame you get. End game killers will camp/tunnel to get a kill so DS feels required.
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I understand your position. But it is an OP perk, that in that situation , rewards bad team play.
Also it is pretty unanimous that a killer has the right to camp during end game, without catching flak for it.
I'd argue this is the only time BT is really OP. When the gates are open and you get BT and run out the gates.
Killers should have a chance to secure a kill during end game as well.
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Thank you. Hard agree.
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Only thing DS needs:
Timer counts down like normal. If you get into a chase/downed, it stops counting down. If you do anything that allows for you to be grabbed (barring a vault), it counts down significantly faster (at least 2x as fast, so you get a max of 30 seconds of DS on a generator).
Now it's a very strong anti-tunneling that can't really be used offensively, and doesn't allow the killer to wait it out if he does tunnel. Also, to help with being slugged, a survivor should get BPs every x number of seconds if they are on the ground with DS up, as kind of a distraction or something. That way they if they get slugged after being tunneled. they still get something.
I really hate the games where I'm not allowed to get bloodpoints because the killer said no.
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I agree about the NOED here, you often get one good down from it against a good team before its cleansed or nothing at all. Its good on a killer like doc who can find everyone easily and then apply NOED pressure quickly. Otherwise you are basically running 3 perks and one easily counter-able perk that may get you a down.
I find its typically bad teams that ignore totems and then make silly rescue plays in the egc that get torn apart by NOED, they are also the saltiest about it.
DS otherwise is ok I only feel its oppressive when paired with unbreakable. Can't pick you up can't slug you. In that case I always slug, if they pick themselves up at least its gone and I suffer no consequence, or just count to sixty if its the last down.
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