SWF is not the problem here
SWF is not the problem of DbD. And actually, neither it is the fact that many killers are weak.
The actual problem of DbD is solo Q and I'm being serious, hear me out:
The fact that solo Q is so much weaker than a SWF on voice coms potentially can be is the main reason why bhvr is not buffing killers to be able to combat sweaty SWF groups. It would destroy solo Q and its already a ######### experience and sucks most of the time. In fact, we see killers getting nerfed (spirit, nurse and recently Billy).
So actually, solo Q has to be buffed TOGETHER with killers to fix the game. Otherwise we will stay in this mess for another 4 years and more.
Any attempt of nerfing SWF will make solo Q worse or will make SWF itself not enjoyable.
Comments
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how do you buff solo without buffing swf, without adding voice to solo?
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No, SWF is simply just way too much for even the most experienced meta killers to handle.
4 People, who know your location at all times.
Who can all loop you for a good while in the red ranks
Who run 4 second chance perks each
Who organize rescues and protection hits while simultaneously doing gens.
I understand the frustration that comes from solo queue, and you know what, you're right. Solo queue should have comms.
But in compensation, lots of the killers who's powers almost solely rely on a survivor's mistake should be buffed.
Examples:
Michael Myers. If you have 4 people who understand how his stalking works and distances, and considering how easy it is to block line of sight by crouching around loops, he'll get to tier 3 with 4 gens done.
ANY stealth killer. A stealth killer will now hold the responsibility of not being seen by ANY of the 4 survivors. Since at the moment he's seen comms go AAAAAAAAAAAAAA, it will ruin them and they'll be just m1 killers for the entire match.
SWF is a game breaking issue, but it NOT an issue that can be solved. The devs can't prevent people from playing with their friends cause that's just stupid, and they obviously can't tell if they're using comms, what are they gonna do, make EAC ban discord.exe?
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Perk lock for SWF, but not for solo players. SWF teams would have to decide who plays what, which would add an extra challenge to SWF and would limit so-called 2nd chance perks, while every solo player would be able to choose which loadout works best for them in solo queue.
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All of these will help swf as well
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b8
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Just wanna say I wholeheartedly agree, but you literally described why swf IS the problem and even your whole argument circles around that.
Giving solos the default "perks" given to swf would make the experience a million times less frustrating, why do they get 8+ perks for free when solos have to sweat all game just to escape? Nerfing swf will kill the player base obviously, but the devs are so reluctant to admit they're uncounterable and basically invincible if they're not complete potatoes. Giving solos all the advantages SWFs get + buffing killers accordingly would make both surv and killer a much more fair experience.
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What is your point in this discussion? If you're not going to have a mature civil conversation then you're wasting your own time.
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My 2 friends and I are the very definition of a casual swf and we wouldn't mind. I think the strategy component would be fun, yes. I don't get the idea of having "one's perks", as there are many cool perks, and mixing them all up in a clever way sounds like a fun challenge to me.
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DBD is an asymmetrical game with a million variables. It'll never be perfectly balanced.
Attempts at doing so will do nothing but reduce the fun factor for a majority of the playerbase.
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I love the widespread isunderstanding about comms.
Comms/Cwf are a multiplier to everything "solo" has to offer, you add anything to the game, swf will be most likely to use it even better than "solo"
To be precise, ALL swf does is put X survivors in the same lobby. It doesnt magically tell you how many totems dwightey has done, he needs to havbe the idea to tell each other himself.
Adding UI elements or even stronger aura reading will help cwf, as theyd be able to skip/speed up the gathering of information before relaying strategy or coordination.
To bring default mode up to cwf, add voicechat or any kind of information relay system. Spoonfeeding info will only move or even widen the so called gap.
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The biggest problem is too many people are not very good at killer and instead of looking at their mistakes and correcting them they just say "wahhhhh it was a swf" SWF are not that bad. I have no issues destroying them at rank 1. Many times they are easier than a good team of randoms. Some people just have such a hard time accepting that maybe they're just not that good.
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No-addons squad on comms vs red rank killers. Tremendous advantage even if communication is very casual and not really sweaty.
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As a Michael main, I disagree with this statement. First, any survivor whether on comms or not can be smart enough to stall your T3. The specific scenario you provided does happen, BUT it is very circumstantial (map set ups, perks like QnQ + Head On etc.) and most of the time it is because you use add ons that make EW last longer but that cost more stalk time.
Second, Even with comms I have been able to grab someone off a gen. Which would seem impossible but I have a certain way I play where I do not stick to one person all the time. If I am mid-chase and hear a gen from a distance I will switch and many times I have grabbed that survivor.
I’ll tell you what the problem is. The problem is that mostly everyone who complains about comms wants to clump every problem with balance and their own lack of skill as a “survive without friends” issue. Which is simply not true. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, a SWF does not grant you a skill you didn’t previously had, it grants you information. If you don’t know how to play the game you will not know what to do with that information.
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Yes SWF is the problem. The gap between SWF and solo que is so ridiculously large that it is flat out unfair to solo ques. Killers can't be utterly helpless to SWF (though they are FAR weaker) and as such they get buffs that can make them oppressive to solo que-ers. I won't talk about potential fixes for this but SWF is absolutely the main problem with balancing this game.
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If I am mid-chase and hear a gen from a distance I will switch and many times I have grabbed that survivor
You're telling me someone got grabbed off a gen 16m away from another survivor you're currently chasing, while your location is being called out on comms? Stop being ridiculous
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I guess you are relatively new to the game, so you aren't aware that people have been saying that for years.
To be realistic: Things will change in the next 3 years as much as they did in the last 3 years. 🤷
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This is an exaggeration. Even a decent four-man SWF won't know your location at all times. Object is the only thing that let's you see the killer most of the time and you still need to be uncommonly good with callouts to relay accurate information to your squad. Object is still broken because of the information sharing potential, but I find it's not often used effectively.
Usually the information survivors are sharing is more in the realm of "he ran off to my left!" after they get hooked or "he's on me"/"he left me"/"I'm going down" in a chase. That's still very good information, but it's not enough to make stealth killers powerless or to know exactly where the killer is.
Being good at looping has nothing to do with SWF. Second chance perks also have nothing to do with SWF. If Myers is getting to tier 3 with four gens done, that's not SWF. That's Myers being bad.
Then there's the fact that SWF is often not sweaty groups playing optimally. Often it's just buddies playing together that more than give away the information advantage they have by having very different skill levels and playing overly altruistically.
It's clearly not a game-breaking issue. On the contrary, it's a part of the game. With that said, I 100% agree with OP that buffing solo queue is the right move as it would allow the devs to better balance for both solo queue and SWF. MMR should also make SWF a lot less of an issue, as I'd guess that most people who play SWF spend most of their time playing SWF and will therefore have any SWF advantage factored into their skill rating.
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Knowing that the killer is currently in a chase or isn't near the hook is worth multiple perk slots. A SWF gets to not run Kindred, Bond, Empathy (frankly every single survivor aura reading perk) as well as a chunk of the killer aura reading perks like Alert or Dark Sense which allows them to focus on second chance perks. I almost exclusively play solo survivor and my build is almost completely aura reading perks. In a SWF I'd feel no pressure to run any of them because of the amount if overlap SWF comms has with them.
SWF is a big balance issue and something needs to be done about it. Even a group if memeing chumps looking for a good time have a drastically improved level of information compared to a random group.
We can both agree that buffing solo is the best choice, but we need to make sure we tweak perks and killers accordingly.
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If you exclusively play solo queue, I'd recommend you give SWF a shot before you assume it's that strong. I play both SWF and solo queue and I find I usually do better in solo queue. My friends are a bunch of different ranks, we mess around, we get overly altruistic, and they often don't even know what I mean if I tell them a killer has a certain perk or add-on. Meanwhile in solo queue I tend to get much more competent teammates, even with the current (bad) matchmaking. I notice the same thing as killer; occasionally you'll get the clicky, tea-baggy hit squads, but often you'll see groups like mine that are easy to steamroll.
The potential of SWF is high enough that I'm 100% for closing the gap between SWF and solo queue, but I do think people exaggerate how good it is. In practice I don't think it's as strong as people think.
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I do play SWF from time to time and I change my build drastically in a group because my usual perks are pointless. Why would I run Aftercare or Kindred if I can just ask my buddy where he is or if the killer is camping?
I'm not saying every SWF group is suddenly going to be insanely powerful, but any SWF group is going to have way more information than a solo team and that's a problem. There is a way for people to get free perks by using an outside chat function and I think we should do as much as possible to lower the advantage obtainable.
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I think it's a good idea if we go into terms to facilitate the balance of the game, but if devs do that, other problems arise.
They will have to rework some many perks such as Third Seal, because it would no longer do much good due to voice communications.
The game will lose its original touch in solo mode.
They will have to buff some killers because not all of them are made to fight decent SWFs.
There may be insults and the game will become more toxic as in the game on Friday the 13th.
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Yeah, that’s what I said.
You have to understand how SWF teams play to be able to outsmart them or mind-game them or else you are playing at their pace.
How is my location being called out when I simply stopped chasing? as in they know who I am on any longer.
I think you think just because people are on comms that they can see everything when they actually can sandbag each other because someone was told the killer was on them when in fact they were no longer in chase 10 seconds ago, giving the survivor who thought they were safe little to no prep time to do anything. Stop overestimating SWF teams, they aren’t that good many times.
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FFS not every SWF group is a 4-Man second chance hit-squad, and killers need to STOP ACTING LIKE IT. Not every red ranked survivor is a fantastic runner, and plans for hook rescues also go awry quite quickly.
It's not that game breaking an issue, and this is coming from a solo player too. As a Stealth Killer main, I can also say that them knowing that I'm a stealth killer isn't the problem there and they will never know my position 100% of the time. It's the knowledge that I don't have the mobility to get to all of them that is the issue. Besides, there is no stealth killer with an alternate attack besides Pig, who has to activate her stealth mode to begin with. Solo players also know how to counter Myers' line of sight rule for his power, so I don't see how that's a factor.
It can be frustrating to deal with, but it's not like most of them are out specifically to grief the killer and make them miserable. Half of them are tired of dealing with the crap from killers tunnelling and camping because some of them got salty against a supposedly SWF team.
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No-addons squad on comms vs red rank killers:
Tremendous advantage even if communication is very casual and not really sweaty. Just watch it, 100 matches, very few loses.
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Idk, I still think Aura reading perks are useful unless you're in a three or four stack. I run one aura reading perk max in solo queue (usually Aftercare, Kindred, or Alert depending on what I have unlocked - I like your taste) and I don't feel like I have a major disadvantage versus SWF. Even without Kindred, if I'm close to the hook, I save. If I'm far, I let someone else save. I still have line of sight / crows, the TR, the HUD, and game sense to have an idea of what the killer's up to. If you see a health state change or the obsession claws move, your teammate's in a chase, and you may need to save or finish up their gen. If the guy on the hook moves their arms, the killer is camping and you should do gens. Your decisions aren't going to be quite as optimal outside of SWF, but it's usually not that big of a deal. There's plenty of information to work with.
The other obvious counterpoint to this is that kill rates as of the last stat drop (end of 2019) were ~65% at all ranks and ~70% at red ranks. That's including both SWF and solo queue. Since then the changes have generally benefited killers (toolbox nerf, survivor add-ons are now consumed at the end of the trial, coop gen speed nerf, Doctor rework/buff, several maps being shrunk and having god loops removed, sabo rework (this one helped survivors), etc.). On here the typical narrative is that killers have no chance against SWF, but for that to be true solo queue players would have to have no chance of survival and that's just not the case.
I've just never been that frustrated by SWF as killer. I think people need to be more willing to reflect on what mistakes they made in a match rather than assume they did nothing wrong and they were just screwed over by SWF. I agree that the ceiling of SWF when played optimally by a good team is disgustingly high, but in practice that's just not what SWF is usually like. We do seem to be agreed on the steps to take, though.
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This is idiotic. SFW is the problem. Survivors shouldn't have as much information as they get from voice coms. That's why the game was made the way it is, it gives you information you're supposed to have and not supposed to have. A killer vs solo q survivors is generally a very balanced game when they're similar skill levels. But even a sfw of 2 people is enough to throw of the balance that is there.
The problem is that there isn't a normal mode that allows solo and sfw. Ranked should be limited to solo only.
Edit: This is also what you'd call power creep. Buff killers more, then buff survivors to keep up with killer. When you keep buffing instead of keeping things around a certain balanced area, games start to get out of hand and completely change into something different.
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Well, solo mode and party mode would solve a lot of problems. Slap some NEW objectives on the party mode, give killer ANOTHER power to use and change MAP DESIGN and everyone will be happy.
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How do you figure solo que is the problem? I mean it was the way the game was built. It is SWF teams making Keys OP by everyone planing the escape over mic. It is SWF teams that don't need things like Kindred or Spine Chill because they can tell each other where the killer is. I mean with coms on SWF you pretty much start with a ton of Perks without needing to actually equip them. In SWF teams there is so many perks you dont need so you can use others and it makes the game very unbalanced.
Playing SWF is pretty much like starting with all vision based perks without needing to equip them and THEN being able to add 4 more perks on top of that. If anything is making the game harder on SOLO players it is the SWF players making things like DS and other perks OP and making KEYS look like the strongest thing in the game when 3 or 4 survivors all escape because they strategized on mics. It even makes it unfair for killers when people play SWF.
Also if they could manage to NERF SWF it should always be enjoyable because the fun in SWF is playing with friends right or is the real fun in having a unfair advantage? Just asking what is the enjoyable part in SWF? I imagine you are gonna say being able to play with friends so nerf or no nerf you could still do that.
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I will say you are right that many people do over estimate SWF but at the same time you cant deny that in a solo que game that is still information that we would not get. Yes I know that you have had moments where you grabbed someone because the SWF gave wrong info either because they did not pay attention or somehow lost you and did not say they lost visual and warn the others, but the issue to me is the fact that it is still info most solo que would never have the chance to get. I agree with you yes not all SWF are god but even the worst SWF still can get more info and decide what to do with it than any Solo que who plays the game the way it was intended.
Also good job on showing the SWF teams who is Boss. You sound like a good killer. =)
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Lot of very specific examples for a 4 man hit squad thats less that 5/10% of games. And the good/tryhard ones are even rarer.
Buff killer to swf, buff solo to match.
Until then, take the few tough games and learn from them so that the games you're SUPPOSED to get go better.
"The most experienced meta killers" have shown us time and time again they can handle SWF. It's the average player that struggles and refuses to play out a likely losing game. They dont think "this is gonna be rough, but let's see where I can improve before it ends", they always say, "ugh swf its gg again I'm gonna afk or DC because ######### this".
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What is your point exactly? SWFs are the problem. Even for me as survivor. Last night i was thrown in to game... Clearly i was out of my league, but game was... how do you say it? "EZ GG". Seriously, it was experience like with level 20 killer. I was seriously confused while in match and thinking "Ok, one of those miss matched games, im out of my place, possibly me 8 + 20, 19,17, Killer 19 and he is really bad or we are really lucky". Because usually when game feels to easy or falls apart to quickly its like that. :/ But no, this time was a little bit different - me 8 + 3, 2,1 and 1 Killer. And yeat i could say "EZ GG", i wasnt on hook even once, and i was the random one...
Also im not the best killer, far away from that, but holly ######### even i know when SWFs are around - i had 0 kills games, and when 3 gens are done before second hook you will know ######### is going on. GG.
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I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I really like the end where you mention how many of them play SWF because they are sick of playing against tunneling or camping killers who claim to play this way because they went against a SWF. I feel like I have seen many killers who if they lost a match and only got 1 kill it was because it was SWF and not their lack of skill. I have learned quickly it is human nature to place blame on anything or anyone but yourself so if as a killer you did not do so good blame it on SWF. lol
Also, Respect for being a killer main who is not afraid of SWF. I mean I do not like them but I think it is because they break certain things and are the reason certain perks and keys are considered OP but that is a different issue. I just know any perk can be strong when planned and used wisely just like the keys and in solo que you cannot plan that stuff so that is why I dislike SWF. Thanks to things like that people are demanding Keys nerfed or BT nerfed and so on and so fourth. I say just play the game and enjoy it and be thankful each match is different. You win some and you lose some. =)
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Great... thanks for taking the fun out of playing with my friends who are not on comms with me but we are playing in the same match..... please tell me how you will know they should get this buff or not? I mean just because they swf up doesn't mean that are 100% in communications... enjoy figuring that one out.
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here is another flaw in the logic of all this. I have been in a 4 man solo queue (all are random) and the killer ASKED if we were a swf! apparently we seemed to know too much information for him to believe that we aren't a swf. one ttv in the group said look at their profile, then I said look at mine, and the others piped up and the killer was amazed at how well we worked together. How do you explain that? SWF like knowledge (including getting all 5 totems down as killer had noed) yet not a swf? do we get debuffed because we play well together? what happened is this, myself and one other play immersed (yes we are filthy immersed survivors) gen jockies, the other two were runners. so while the runners ran the killer we quietly went around the match doing gens and totems. It was hilarious and to this day we all talk and a few times we play together but not always.
thing about this is, if you know what you are doing and have team mates that are not potatoes the killer will have a hard time getting all of you no matter what. is there that toxic swf out there that will screw the killer over and tbag at all times? oh you better believe it, and it's not always in the red ranks either, i've seen it in the green ranks more tbh. there are lots of problems to worry about and honestly if the 4 survivors (me included) I mentioned above had the QoL upgrades you wanted we'd have been gods in that game. Do games like I described happen? more than you think, but you can't count on it.
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Yeah you can argue this either way.
Solo is not strong enough to buff killers enough to deal with SWF. Solo is the problem. This can be worked on by bringing Solo closer to SWF levels and buffing killers.
SWF is too strong for killers, we need to reduce the power of SWF (I don't even think that's feasibly possible) and/or buff killers. SWF is the problem. This can be worked on by buffing killers, but then solo gets even worse.
Obviously the better option is to buff solo and killers, but that requires more work so who knows.
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You get the point, but It's just that no one knows how the devs can "nerf" swf. 3-man = 1 less perk slot, 4-man = 2 less perk slots? 2-man is fine. But i still think there's still some good people who play SWF and don't deserve this.
Bully squads and sweaty europeans swfs are torture, but there's no way a system can tell them apart from just a couple of blokes having a day off in dbd.
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Not ridiculous, absolutely plausible! Not every SWF is a swat team and highly compatetive, but casual and rather ineffective with their comms. I regularly play with my wife, and it happens quite often that we have misunderstandings. Me not telling her fast enough I'm no longer being chased, resulting in her being found on a gen and hit / downed. So exactly the situation he was describing. Or we do not communicate who unhooks and end up both at the hook. Or one of us bringing the killer to the other unintentionally, just bc we didn-'t know where the other was. It's not the comms alone that is problematic with SWF swat teams, it's their on-point communication, due to the players game experience and knowledge. Comms don't help at all if you can't or won't communicate clearly.
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Game is neither designed or balanced around being able to verbally communicate the location of generators, the killer, totems or other survivors no matter what the developers would try and tell you.
As long as survivors keep crying whenever killers are moderately powerful this is the situation we're stuck with. Sadly you can't really remove SWF because then all the survivors that only play in groups will ######### that they can't possibly play solo.
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They will simply use third party programms + a timed joning in the queuing time, like in so many other games. Also it is possible that they then start to dodge lobbys until they all have find together.
Don't see how the devs would be able to do anything against it, besides playing with friends is a natural multiplayer thing. Making solos stronger would be the right way imo.
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Well Yeah when you encounter one it's an uphill battle tense from start to finish. Its anxiety inducing, but its not every game. At least not for me.
And I dont think we should nerf swf. I think we should buff the rest. Bring them all up to par with the "op group" that causes balance problems, instead of cutting out parts of the game because you cant (or didnt enable by the original intent of the game) stop friends from talking to each other and playing with one another. Removing features to punish friends is how you get people to quit.
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The problem with making solo's stronger is that would leave killers in a pretty terrible place.
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Thing is if survive with friends was never implemented survivors would whine about their items and the killer is too powerful. and without playing with your friends, it's not much of a game to enjoy. that's the long and short of it. remove swf, and hemorrhage players.keep swf in people ######### about how powerful they are. vicious cycle they are in, so there is no good answer here. I will just say it if you can't win against them, join them! that's all on you. honestly comms for most people are hey how're ya doing... what's going on? what's your oldest doing now that they have no physical school? oh you know what the mating habits of the giant arrakis sand worms are? oh yea i just took out a totem.... funny it exposed all of us. oops! sorry!
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SWF is the weakest thing anybody could ever do in the game!!! The whole point is that it's a struggle bcuz you have to depend on randoms to stay alive and yeah playing solo sucks sometimes bcuz people are idiots and a lot of times it feels like 4 on 1 against a good survivor but I'd much rather die 1,000 times bcuz of a sh***y team than be one of the lamest people on earth and use coms in DBD. . Extra weak!!!
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fair enough, I confused your post and misread it. I was semi-distracted when I posted it so I apologize for misreading your post. this post is about trying to buff solo's so they can get all the information a swf has but deny it to swf's. I posted how in one match the killer literally though we were a swf because we acted in concert and coordination with each other but it was more the case of "hey we're pretty good at the game" and that is what i was saying about if we had had these QoL upgrades being talked about we'd have been gods. thing is if you have that queue only for solo's you might be hard pressed to get a match. or it would be hard for a swf to get a match (especially if they are a 2 man or a 3 man) so I do not think that is a good idea personally.
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