"No Counter Play" LOL
Okay, I'm honestly tired of seeing this phrase when people talk about anything. It comes up a lot as an argument against Spirit or Deathslinger.
Look at the end of the day every killer and tactic has counter play. There were legit like 5 things in this game ever to not have counter play. Old Legion was one of them. Infinite loops (as in double window at cow tree with no bloodlust and no entity blocker) had no counter play. Heck even in the current game, yes, some stuff has little to no counter play. Ebony Mori. Keys.
But dear Jebus, every time someone tried to argue for a change to a killer they always bring up "no counter play". "Bro there is nothing you can do, you just lose, just D/C already". That's basically what I hear.
Spirit has counter play. Deathslinger has counter play. Now I don't like Deathslinger either, I think it's just a lame experience to get speared with no real way to fight back after that point. But that doesn't mean there is 0 counter play. Even as someone that hates Slinger I can acknowledge that there are ways to avoid getting shot. Tall wall loops work good. Dropping the pallet early generally helps. Janky movement can make it harder for the killer.
Oh yea, and hiding works. It works against Spirit too. "Hiding isn't counter play". Uh yes, it actually is. A 110 killer doesn't have the time to thoroughly search an area. If you never get found you never get caught. I've won games against many killers (Slingers and Spirits included) by just hiding. Yea, it's not exactly an exciting experience. It's boring, ESPECIALLY for killers (I've had people hide on me and it sucks), and it's a bit of a cheesey tactic but it's still a legit tactic at the end of the day. Hide near a gen, keep tapping it, force the 110 killer to search everywhere for you and give up pressure on the rest of the map. If everyone is doing this they will have to commit at some point because this is a battle of attrition and they will lose.
And I get people don't like these killers, again I hate Slinger. But come up with some original arguments and stop parroting a buzzword you heard. It's getting ridiculous.
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Well to add even moris you can stall off enough by having perks like ds and jumping into a locker so they can't drop you to mori. Or just loop and kill as much time as possible. Keys are a harder subject since you could just tunnel the key user out but it wont remove it. And if the survivors get enough gens done or enough die it becomes more of a likely escape with one. But agree to everything else but then the other phrase comes out "their boring" because they actually prevent loops and control the chase.
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Yes, but generally speaking both keys and moris fundamentally change the game and there isn't a whole lot that can be done about it.
Like keys do have some counter play. Frankie's is now a great anti-key tool. You could also tunnel/camp the guy out of the game. I bring a mori sometimes if I see one.
The mori/key issue has been around a while and it's less of "no counterplay" and more of "this is just dumb bull #########". It's just dumb the killer can kill you after catching you just twice (with no real tunneling penalty either) or that survivors can escape without doing all the objectives. Both have a very small amount of counterplay and require some luck.
Spirit/Slinger significantly more counterplay that mori/keys. I wouldn't even put it on the same level. Besides the fact I have 0 problem with Spirit, you have a lot of perks that can help and a lot of tactics you can use to help you avoid her better.
If someone doesn't like something, okay, but don't give me "no counter play" argument is all I'm saying. It's played out. Present a better argument please. The phrase is overused it's a meme at this point.
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In a game that actively revolves around chases and killer/player interaction, saying that the counterplay to spirit is avoiding the killer entirely is admitting that the way it is designed isn't suitable for the purpose devs made the game for. Same for deathslinger: janky movements are not outplaying, they revolve on the same rng based luck that you have when spirit ######### up her phase and doesn't find you. It's not about who's the best mind gamer between the killer and survivor, it's about how often the killer ######### up.
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There is no chase counterplay against, spirit,ph, and slinger. It's all guesses. I cant wrap my head around how people think they do.
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Someone with a brain that understands. The only way survivors survive is because its cat and mouse with each mouse tagging in chase with the cat.
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Dude, Spirit is built to chase and mind game you. If you are trying to beat her at that, no wonder you lose to her.
The game does not revolve around a chase. Chase is part of the game, not the only part. Stealth is important too. How many survivor perks are made for stealth? How many killer perks are made to find survivors?
Sorry but this argument falls flat. Ever try to find an immerse survivor as Spirit? It's a serious pain in the ass. Imagine multiple survivors playing like this. Sure you catch the guy you find in 30 seconds, but it took you 120 seconds just to find them. That's as good as time in a chase at the end of the day. Why people insist that they should just always be running from the killer and that this is the entire game is honestly beyond me. The game has many components, chase being one of them. You are limiting your options by thinking this way.
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Moris skip a hook state
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It's the new "boring". It's another passive-aggressive attempt to get you to be on their side while they desperately try to pretend they don't care and/or are objective.
Things which literally have no counter-play, like the UB/DS combo, are self-evident and earn hilarious nicknames like "small pp build".
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Right, because anyone that ever plays these killers has perfect aim or perfect reaction time.
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I never said nor implied they are perfect.yoy can be extremely good though making chases very predictable and one sided. But hey you sound like you play little survivor and hardly understand nust how important chases are been to the fun survivors have so I didnt expect much.
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UB/DS does have counter play though. It's ironic you present a valid point about how "no counterplay" is treated then kinda of just go off and say something has no counterplay.
Slugging early can help beat this combo. You force them to use Unbreakable early. Alternatively if you get the chance to eat DS at 4 or 5 gens I take it because now I don't have to slug that person anymore. In fact if I catch them again I can camp/tunnel and not worry about it.
That's what you have to do. Make them burn their perks early. I rarely see a survivor escape a game if they DS the killer super early like that.
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I will tell to our dear survs what not a counterplay of deadslinger.
Running in the middle of nowhere is not a counterplay of deadslinger (nor any except The Blight hahaha)
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I have 3k hours in the game. Over 3k escapes and 4500 kills. I get how a chase works. But chasing is not the ONLY COMPONENT OF THE GAME. Like why are you trying to get chased by a killer you suck at running from? Just hide from them. "Oh but muh fun" well I hate to say it but fun and winning do not go hand in hand. Sometimes you gotta pick one. Case and point Gears 3 competitive matches on Old Town are so far from fun it's unbelievable. But those guys are playing to WIN not playing for FUN. Sometimes if you wanna win you gotta accept what you're about to do won't be much fun. And if fun is that important to you, then just go run out there and die I guess. Can't have your cake and eat it too. This is a pvp game, it's something you just have to accept here. If DBD was pve then you could argue "muh fun and muh win" but DBD is not that.
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People just got too trigger happy with the phrase since legion..much easier to justify defeat when there's supposedly no counter..I've kites spirits with stridor AND father's glasses in red ranks...saying there's no counter is a cop out because if you succeed it's "Well they were bad" with that logic they can't be wrong on their eyes..but I ask..if there's no counter..how can you be bad with them?
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Maybe because people actually learned and understand the killer from more than just survivor pov..maybe
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This argument bugs me because saying "it's all guesses" implies it's literally random, there's no strategy to it. But humans aren't random events like coin flips and dice rolls, you can both make educated guesses about what people will do based on their behavior to date and psychological intuition and you can entice opponents into behaving in a particular way by conditioning them to react one way in a prior encounter or two and doing something else the next. Bluffing and making psychological reads on opponents is a skill, if anything it's probably an even more interesting dynamic under the hood than simply reacting to a visual attack cue that you can dodge.
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You can't force unbreakable. You can force DS but you do that by eating it, which can literally cost you the game. I have both won and lost because of it on both sides.
Remember that "forcing them to burn their perks" is supposed to be done in the context of preventing gens from being done and multiplied by 4 because they can, and almost certainly will, all have them. It also means they got their "second chances" multiple times, burning ######### tons of your time, and keeping them alive, which means they got the value they intended when they were equipped. By doing this you actually "cost" them NOTHING.
The simple fact that someone who is running both can just crawl to an open gate and there is literally nothing you can do you to stop them if they are close enough is what makes it uncounterable. This isn't even an argument it's a demonstrable fact. Are you also a flat-earther?
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Let's start ok 3k hours fair enough but this is a casual game not competitive regardless sof what people are trying to make it into. The game is made off of chases it was balanced off a looping if you reduce a killer to only having to hide from them dont you think that's a design flaw.
Gears 3 oh man you bringing me back as a former gears player even in comp you can make those fun because it was still shotgun battles the lancer wasnt as strong like gears 5 but I digress.
It's a pvp game but also a casual one you cant make killers turn the only fun part of the game boring that's how you lose players. You need a ratio of 4:1 4 survivors per killer 4x the killer players. You need more significantly more therefore the side must be fun to play
One last thing add paragraphs your block of text is gross.
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Otz ran a stridor spirit in a recent video and still himself said it boils down to guesses. Explanation?
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Oh have you mastered this skill of conditioning and making educated guesses? If so you care to verse my slinger and guess correctly consistently?
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Hmm dont you find it odd hes been out for months and nobody has found clear counterplay to him?
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Yeah, no.
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Then maybe when we talk about things we should be more specific "No Counterplay" =/= "No Chase Counterplay".
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I like stealth (as survivor, as killer it can be to pressures if you facing a stealth 4x team that pops gens on the same time to your left and right).
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My point is that no survivor that uses DS at 5 gens is likely going to escape. The next time you catch them you can just tunnel out of the game.
You can force Unbreakable by slugging. Obvious this depends on the killer. Nurse, Billy or Oni with Infectious can do this effectively. I do it a lot as Huntress, it's easier with Nurses/Deerstalker but you can do it. Smart survivors will save it sure, but if you put them in a situation where they feel they have to use it or lose now, they will use it.
Saying UB/DS has no counterplay is exactly the problem I'm talking about. You can beat it, if you play like a dbag. I regularly play like a dbag and these perks are not that big of a problem for me. OOO on the other hand I don't like because it gives too much info in a SWF. Solo, OOO is fine, still annoying, but in a SWF it's broken. But I won't sit here and say OOO has no counterplay because it does. Freddy is probably the killer most hurt by OOO because you can see him all the time. I haven't played Freddy in a while, but I have Sheep Block on JUST to counter OOO players. They step in a trap now OOO is going to punish them. It is highly effective. OOO also cucks you against stealth killers. That's not to say I think OOO shouldn't be reworked, it should, just that I can still acknowledge the ways to beat it and avoid the while "no counterplay" phrase altogether.
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I respect otz but hes just as human as the rest of us..and do remember almost every tile play killer does is a guess if you really wanna be not picky..if its truly a 50 50 then technically spirit is by far the most balanced thing in dbd..this is why I dont follow the trend..I know enough to formulate my own opinion
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Funny..I do it quite often, all about that bait my friend
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I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say can you reword that? Also spirit is great great otl m a 50/50 she a 75/25 shes always the favored you can stand still and watch them and if they leave phase accordingly. She has all the info while you have none.
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No the slinger missed you have no input to what he does.
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1v4..its not supposed to be even..in no other asymmetrical game is that even remotely the case..because it's silly to think of it as such..long chases should be earned not given..and what I was saying before is every mind game a killer plays is just a guess..so why is that ok but spirit is not? Seems double standard to me
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Yes you do, in fact you control how often he has a clean shot..
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If you ask some people they might find getting chased by Slinger or Spirit "boring" so no.
Also a lot of survivors like to hide and I doubt they do it because they find it boring. For a lot of players it's exciting to play hide and seek. For killer it sucks yes, because you are just walking around with your thumb up your ass, but I mean stuff killers do sucks for survivors too, eg. camping and tunneling so you honestly can't complain that much. Like 50% of killer perks are made to find survivors, if it bothers you that much (like it does for me when I'm Nurse) then just put on all tracking perks.
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Fair enough but still the chase is the mmk ost fun part of the game chases with Billy can go to whoever's outplayed the other. If you wanna chase you earned it.
I find it disgusting how you think a chase with slinger is fair slinger can zone by existing. The survivor side needs 4x the players if the only fun side is canceled out by poorly designed killers the player base will leave.
I dont want to be subjected to stealth or gen sim because a killer has oppressive chase abilities.
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So break los a good slinger will shoot you before you have time to react or break los he aldo has a secondary stealth ability which puts you in a bad position and giving him free first hits alot of the time.
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The game is not made for chases. Chases are a PART of the game. Not the sole reason for it. Again there is a whole swath of survivors that just enjoy hiding from the killer. Of course most are low ranks because it's not generally an effective strategy (also they suck at it), but it can be even against strong killers if done correctly.
You can't force people to play in a way that's fun for everyone all the time in a pvp game. If someone wants to hide, whether because it's fun or because they want to win, you can't shame or punish them for that. This game has plenty of players right now, not sure why you even bring this up TBH.
Also 6 lines is not "a gross block of text".
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I never said I'm a master, but check out Tru3ta1ent's games against Spirit for examples. He mindgames red rank Spirits all the time. Here's some recent matches
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See I'd agree with you if Spirit and Deathslinger had counterplay.
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After looping became the primary skill for beating. The killer the devs went with it and balanced around it. It is the building block for this game the interaction between survivor and killer. You said it yourself tbe players who like stealthing are low ranks.
Sure I cant force people to play one way but the good players like looping and have fun doing so. Not to mention killers hate looking for stealth survivors and it's boring as #########.
I'm also not saying I want to punish them or shame them for stealthing. You cant force me force me to stealth. If I wanna get chased you cant Shane or punish mentor doing so.
It was way more than 6 lines but hey go off.
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Spine Chill is good against literally every killer in multiple situations. If he sneaks up on you that much then why are you not using it? It's an outstanding perk, easily top 10 in the game.
That's not to say I don't think he should have a normal TR of 32m. He should. But that's because his TR audio is janky AF and doesn't have the same volume at the same range as a normal TR.
Alternatively you can position yourself in a way to see where he might be coming from. Like yea an open field is a bad idea if he is chasing you, but if you see his tall dumb face a mile away and just bolt that's gonna be a sucky time for him.
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Hes not really mind gaming he was guessing correctly. I should also mentioned I seen the first video it was a bad spirit.
He even lost chases against said bad spirit. She would only phase when injured and not use other sounds.
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Well how can you change slinger without killing him? His zoning and quick shot are the only reason he can succeed..or hes just way weaker huntress and she has her own issues and he can't even punish pallet drops unless it's the worst pallet ever
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"You said it yourself tbe players who like stealthing are low ranks."
Because they suck at it. And chases. And doing gens. Hiding is the only thing that makes sense to them and probably what works most consistently for them at low ranks.
But a good player knows how to stealth correctly. I have at least 4 friends that I've invited into KYF just to mess around and they hid from me for like 2 minutes. They are good players, and I even had Whispers and I use Astro A50's. It can be done. A bad player doing the thing bad doesn't mean the thing is bad. It means the player is bad.
Also devs started to balance chases more because they had too. The game was far too one sided. That doesn't make it the sole core component of the game.
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It's not all that crazy..I like how he can actually go for a shot to ambush..imo huntress shouldn't even have a heartbeat so she can do some neat tricks with her hum but that's just an idea..my way to beat slinger is simpke..if I'm about to enter a doorway or corner then fake it..he will always try to get those shots as they won't be as dodgable..and if I know I won't make it before he can get Los I dont hesitate to give up the pallet..there's plenty of them and he has no map pressure anyway..I knew it was going to be his weak heel the moment i saw he couldnt pallet punish..I dont need to escape the chase, just to waste at least 30 seconds of his time..if I do that I win the chase
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Alright fair enough but did you have fun looking for those stealth players? The chase isnt only the fun thing for survivors it's fun for killers as well thays boring looking for stealth players.
The devs had ot balance around chases because people thought they were fun you are trying to defend a killer who stops that fun which is what playing games are for.
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No I didn't have fun, and that's my point from earlier. You can't force people to play in a way that's fun for someone else. If they want to hide, sucks for me. If I want to camp, sucks for them. See what I mean?
She doesn't stop the fun. That's a subjective statement. I have fun playing against a Spirit. Some of my friends do too. Some don't. I can tell you, I DO NOT have fun against Doc. I hate Doc. I would delete him from the game if given the power. But there are people that have fun playing against Doc. So I can't say he is unfun for anyone but myself.
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That I dont know not that it doesnt need to be done. And 2 years ago they made like 90% of the loops shorter for "fun" which is what the patch 2.0 patch notes say the reasoning behind this change was.
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Ok so you acknowledge he destroys in chase and you only can get max 30 seconds. Fair enough but that is also a guess in itself if the killer is patient they will wait a bit or if they have good aim they track you and shoot.
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See but this game is for fun regardless. Sure you cant force people but you also cant eliminate ways to have fun like slinger I might as well hold w to make chases just as boring for him as well.
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So like in all fairness, Clown and Freddy also destroy in a chase. Freddy even destroys in general. But no one complains about these killers dominating chases because...? It's only Spirit or Slinger that people complain about the chase.
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Yet the majority of maps are still filled with unfair loops, not infinites..but there are still very questionable pallet spawns..like a good loop next to shack window? On ormond? No way you can say that's even remotely fair for 90 percent of the killers..myers on that setup is helpless..even on the new maps..midwhich can have 3..3! Incredibly broken windows that spawn and only 1 has a breakable wall to get rid of it..those arnt fair either..plus..they've been compensating for the reduction in size with pallet quantity..which can be insane in it's own right
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