Perks shouldn't have tiers anymore. Change my mind.
TL;DR: Read the first set of bullet points.
When the game was first released and had only 45 perks, 4 survivors, and 3 killers, the tier system made sense, and it held up for a long while after as well. In addition, the changes which have been made to bloodwebs in the past has made them easier to deal with, but not perfect.
25 survivor perks at 3 tiers each for 4 survivors = 300 total perk purchases to complete survivor loadouts. 20 killer perks at 3 tiers each for 3 killers = 180 total perk purchases to complete killer loadouts. If we assume 4000 bloodpoints per purchase on average (which I'm sure neither is or was entirely accurate, but for the sake of simplicity) that's 1.92 million bloodpoints to purchase all perks, excluding the rest of the bloodwebs. A lot, but reasonable for new players (which everyone was at the time) to get what they want where they want it.
In the current game, there are 23 survivors, 21 killers, 83 survivor perks, and 75 killer perks.
In my experience, the average level 50, 4/2-perk bloodweb seems to cost about 55,000 bloodpoints to complete, and I'm usually pretty good about gaming the entity to take as much of the bloodweb as possible. This equates to 27,500 bloodpoints per perk tier. Since the majority of the bloodpoints of someone trying to max out will be spent on level 50 bloodwebs, I'll use these numbers for calculations; I believe they should suffice at least to serve my point. I'll also round down to 50,000 bloodpoints per web, or 25,000 per perk tier.
23 survivors * 83 survivor perks * 3 tiers = 5,727 perk purchases. At an average of 25,000 bloodpoints per perk purchase, that equates to 143.175 million bloodpoints. 21 killers * 75 killer perks * 3 tiers = 4,725 perk purchases. At an average of 25,000 bloodpoints per perk purchase, that equates to 118.125 million bloodpoints.
To max out all killers and survivors would cost approximately 261.3 million bloodpoints. (Note: these numbers cannot be directly compared to the aforementioned 1.92 million bloodpoint number, as I didn't take into account the cost of the rest of the bloodweb when purchasing perks.) At a maximum of 32,000 bloodpoints per game (excluding offerings and events) one would have to play 8,166 perfect games to earn that many bloodpoints. At a near ABSOLUTE maximum of 230,400 bloodpoints per game (assuming only perfect games, double bloodpoint event and 5 4th year cakes every game, which is extremely unreasonable) that's still 1,134 games.
In my 1546 hours, I've earned a total of 143 million bloodpoints, averaging ~92k/hour. At that rate, it would take me approximately 2841 hours to max out all characters, if I didn't prestige anyone ever. And using OhTofu as an example, he's earned a total of 812 million bloodpoints in nearly 7000 hours of gameplay, averaging 116,000 bloodpoints/hour. This is likely significantly above average, but even so, it would take 2,253 hours at that rate to have earned enough bloodpoints to max out all characters, ignoring prestige. The large majority of the playerbase will never hope to play that many hours, and those who do/can will likely be prestiging characters anyway. And with the DLC train seemingly stopping no time in the near future, this problem will only get worse, not better.
To be clear: I'm not saying everyone should be easily able to have all perks on all characters, but I do not think it should be so far out of the realm of possibility for a casual player to get the perks they want.
There are also other problems with the perk tier system, in my opinion at least. Some perks are almost not worth running at all until you get them to tier 3. Examples are: Autodidact, Iron Will, and (less so, depending on circumstances) Stridor, Blood Warden, Whispers, Lightweight.
And some perks have nearly no discernible gameplay difference between their tiers. Examples: Better Together, Borrowed Time, Breakout, Mettle of Man, Self Care, Devour Hope, No One Escapes Death, Infectious Fright, Lightborn, Monitor & Abuse. If you include the perks which function exactly the same in-game with the only difference being the amount of bonus bloodpoints you receive, this list gets even larger.
Some perks are better in some (or all) situations at tier 1 than at tier 3. Examples: Discordance, Make Your Choice.
Creating perks for a tierless system would also be easier. With the current perk tier system, perks essentially must be based on a number in some aspect in order for it to differ between tiers. Without this restriction, many more perks become possible additions to the game. Many games function just fine with a perk system like this, in which you either have or don't have a perk; there aren't any levels.
So, for a short list of benefits, a tierless perk system would:
- Make it easier for new players to get into the game in its current state
- Significantly open up the possibilities for future perks
- Open up possibilities for reworking perks
- Entirely eliminate the problem of some perks being useless until you buy them 3 times
- Entirely eliminate the problem of some perks having nearly no differences between tiers
- Entirely eliminate the problem of some perks being better at tier 1 than 3
- Make the bloodweb RNG less infuriating without taking away from the game
- Improve overall game health (in my opinion)
That's not to say there are no problems with this system. I'm sure many veteran players may complain that they spent bloodpoints buying something they didn't need to buy / future players won't need to buy. Personally, as someone with 1500+ hours (which I know in the grand scheme of things regarding this game isn't a ton) I wouldn't mind a change like this going into effect, even if it means I spent bloodpoints newer players won't need to spend, as I see it as beneficial for the game and community. I also believe this logic is flawed, as the health of the game should trump all else. However, I don't believe it would be outside the realm of possibility to give all players bonus bloodpoints based on the perks they've purchased. For example, a possible reward system could look like:
- 1500 bloodpoints for each tier 2 perk owned
- 2500 bloodpoints for each tier 3 perk owned
This would result in a maximum compensation amount of 4.77MM (23 survivors * 83 perks * 2500 bloodpoints) + 3.94MM (21 killers * 75 perks * 2500 bloodpoints) = 8.71 million bloodpoints for someone with all tier 3 perks on all characters.
Altogether, I truly believe that getting rid of perk tiers in DbD would be good for the long-term health of the game, and may even be necessary if DLC continues to get released. New players are frequently overwhelmed by the sheer number of perks and the feeling that they may never have the perks they want where they want to in order to experience the game to its fullest.
What are your opinions? Do you think the perk tier system should go? Should it stay? And why?
Comments
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I don't have much time, so I will only reply to the Title, I agree with that, perk tiers should be removed.
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I skimmed this but I agree.
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The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different perks.
As for cost, we selected initial values based upon data from the Open Beta and other adjustments made to milestone rewards before launch. Among other things, we're looking at average per-player bloodpoint earn rates on a daily basis, and we'll be making constant adjustments to ensure that players have challenges that are compelling, rewarding, and of course attainable via gameplay.
We appreciate the candid feedback, and the passion the community has put forth around the current topics here on our forums, Reddit, and across numerous social media outlets.
Our team will continue to make changes and monitor community feedback and update everyone as soon and as often as we can.
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Yeah my friends joined the game but hate the grind for niche perks when for survivor only 4 or 5 perks are godly anyway so your grinding for niche builds after that.
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I have all survivors (besides Felix) at p3 all perks (besides Felix' teachables).
I have 9 killers at p3 all perks (besides the blights teachables).
I have spent a lot of bp and play the game way too much. It would not hurt my feelings at all if they lessened the grind for newer players or players that don't have time to max everything out. Even with no perk tiers it would still take plenty of time to p3 all perk every killer and survivor.
I couldn't imagine being a new player at this point knowing the grind is what it is.
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This would be amazing
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Tiered perks are, like the ridiculous bloodweb itself, a relic of a bygone era, and should be replaced with a simpler system.
They're so focused on having us participate in this silly grind, which is weird for a party game, as they claim it is.
You already release DLC every few months to keep people interested, why do we need a silly bloodpoint grind like a bad free to play game on top of it? Just have perks and everything add-ons and everything be part of a loadout. The bloodweb (and tiered perks as one of its symptoms) is both annoying and time-consuming. It's time to move on.
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At this point perk tiers are pretty pointless. As a new player you already have to learn:
- 21 killers
- 3-5 add-ons per killer (The ones that make a big difference to them)
- 75 killer perks
- 83 survivor perks
- Items
- Offerings
- Maps
- Tiles
- (Insert thing I've forgotten here)
Add to all of this the difference in perk tiers. If they need to decrease the amount of perks per bloodweb back to 2 again past 50 then I'd be fine with that.
The devs want to help new players while not making a massive difference at high ranks. This is one of those changes that would do that. It would help new players:
- Get good perks faster
- Reduce grind when trying to max out a character
- Easier to learn perks
- (Insert other thing I've forgotten here)
Fully agree with getting rid of tiers. I see no real obvious reason not to.
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I agree, the grind is just getting worse and worse for each chapter. and this chapter brought even more common offerings adding even more to the current grind . it´s getting ridiculous imo.
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This was very well stated. Perk Tiers are a rather archaic system that the game has ultimately outgrown. DbD is thankfully not one of those predatory "we made the grind really bad so that you'll pay to skip it" games. Heck, you can't get BP through any means beyond actually playing it (besides events/special giveaways).
This would be a massive improvement to the grind and hopefully make things simpler for the devs who have to design these perks (or open up new doors for perk functionality, as you said).
It would also lessen the negative impact of unlocking all teachable perks. With the current system, the average player is actually better off NOT unlocking teachables for mediocre or poor perks that they won't use (or that aren't useful enough to be worth running, such as with Sole Survivor, No Mither, Predator, and Cruel Limits). There is no reason to unlock many of DbD's teachable perks when you really don't want them competing with more desirable perks for a spot in your Bloodweb.
So yeah, I agree. I think the elimination of perk tiers would be a strong step in a positive direction.
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I Agree dude, the grind is already a lot and with perk tiers it’s too much time invested. They need to go
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I think that perk there should stay. Its meant to be a grind so you have to play more. Also Make Your Choice is better at tier 3. The cool down takes place during its duration, not after.
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A TL;DR would be nice but yeah..perk tiers should go.
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Whispers isnt even good on nurse. Her best perks are nurses, shadowborn, bbq, and pop/ruin. She really doesn't need whispers, and running it on her wouldn't be a good idea.
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I have to agree, not because of the grind but because it punishes new survivors/killers more than anything. It's already hard enough trying to play this game without the best perks but new players have to deal with subpar perks because they haven't gotten to tier 3.
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Removing even one perk tier would be a huge help. Then it would be nice to have an option to choose which tier of the the perk you have active. A good example is Dsicordance where some like the tier 1 and some like the tier 3.
In addition to this all BP offerings should be buffed and some changed slightly. Bound envelope/hollow shell, for example, should be changed to give 50 % more BP in all categories for all survivors and the killer.
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Perk tiers are ridiculous, agreed. It's absolutely insanity that it takes so long to farm BP's for perks. I guess they think its "engaging" but really its just making new players want to pull their hair out and main only one person. It's ridiculous.
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The grind is always going to be there, but instead of grinding for perks for the rest of your life, you'll be grinding for items and add ons.
I don't understand why this isn't a thing yet. I have 2k hours in the game and only just maxed out the killers and my favourite survivors. How can you expect to keep casual players interested when the grind is this insane.
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If they want to keep the tiers then reduce the cost of all items on the blood web to 1/3 the current cost. This might even make me prestige some characters as I haven't due to the huge grind to get perks back.
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I agree. Get rid of tiered perks.
The grind with all the content up until now is excessive. They focus on the new player experience but with this grind, the game is straight up inaccessible to new players.
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Gotta agree, tiers just make the game needlessly grindy. I've been playing for 2 years now and each time they release a new survivor I dread the repeat. I hate having to try grind 1M BP, keep challenges and Dailys ready just to 'try' get perks I want/need on survivors/killers. It's at the point now that I just level the new characters for teachables, then go back to my other characters that already have every perk, which is kinda counter-productive when I pay for a DLC but never use that character again.
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No. I don't want to change your mind. You can't make me. I'm no hypocrite.
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It's always nice getting No Mither three times in a row when you just want Iron Will.
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I know that whispers is good. Its just not that good on nurse.
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Oh ok. If that's how you use it then that's fine. But I personally know where most people are at all times due to bbq and just really good game sense. I use whispers on other killers, but I've never liked it on nurse. But hey, you do you. Run whatever you want.
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I count it as a chase perk. It helps my fps and that helps me get hits. I'm a console nurse main btw.
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Devs "We've reworked ruin and noed, because we don't want perks to feel like they need to be tier 3 to be worth using."
Also devs:
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The grind associated with the game is the main reason I play it less often. Anything that would lessen the grind would be welcome. Sorry, can't change your mind.
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Yes. Please remove the tiers!
Now its time!!
Its 2020!
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Only read the title. I agree. 100%. And make them cost 5000 or something, so that they're like teachable perks.
If something like this ever happens though, it would have to change a few perks, such as Discordance being the first tier variant.
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I can't agree more than I already do.
My friends and I only play like 2-4 hours a day, we don't have much time and this would really help us out.
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Why not just increase bloodpoints gained. I feel like this would be better and easier than recoding all the perks. Increasing the amount of bloodpoints would help new players get their 4 perk slots faster as well as be able to play multiple characters without feeling like they wasted bloodpoints by spreading them out. Plus with all the new characters and killers the grind for BPs is so unbearably long, it feels like the current system forces you to only main one character until its lvl 40 which for casual/new players would take ages and is incredibly boring.
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I'm aware the cooldown is not after, but there are still situations where a shorter cooldown, even though it also means a shorter exposed time, is better. Hag with Rusty Shackles & Mint Rag comes to mind.
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They would need to give 5x BP to make it equivalent to removing perk tiers, since you're not going to be lucky enough to appear the same perk 3 times in a row to get it to max tier.
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Thats true, but I like to have more time with exposed.
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Same. If you haven't yet, you should try enduring and brutal on him. Theyre both really good on him as his power is for in between loops.
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This game is EXTREMELY unfriendly to new players.
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Even just decreasing it to only 2 tiers would make a big difference, or increase how many perks show up on the bloodweb past lvl 10. having at least 2 perks to choose between lvls 10-30 seems reasonable
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Completely agree with you.
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Level 50 and still no level 3 Teachables on my Jake or Felix. Very cool, very glad I levelled them. Awesome.
Awful system.
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They could keep tiers but separate it from the bloodweb.
You only buy tier 1 from the bloodweb and then to get the next tier have a simple tome style challenge such as finish 3 games with the perk equipped; then once completed spend a few bloodpoints as normal to tier the perk up to the next level.
This would give more variety in the bloodweb perks as well as giving a reason to play with some of the less popular perks.
You would still use bloodpoints so as not to affect the economy too much and it would just make some of the randomness of the bloodweb less severe.
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I'm sorry if we should read it whole (i only read bullet points) but i totally agree - perks should be tierless. Beside, only instance of perk that somewhat is better on lower tier is Discordance. Every other perks is either better or must have on tier III.
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100% do not agree. Why be boring when you can do something more interesting that allows for people to decide what effects they want and when?
Reason:
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:(
...and what about Distressing on stealthier killers? Or tier II Whispers on Pig? Or MYC I on Hag? (or Devour Hope tier I until the devs RUINED IT?)
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Just make perks standard and upgraded, 2 tiers. Or maybe you could spend iridescent shards to upgrade right away. Or Maybe make the bloodweb have at least 2 perks show up every level after 10. Or maybe a combo of all 3 of these suggestions
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Saying "it should be a grind" is not a good argument, reading this comments. Yes, it's supposed to be a grind, but not a 7k hours grind, cause it should be in at least a dedicated player's reach to P3 max everyone if they want to do so. So I agree, perk tiers should be removed. The perk system is grindy anyway and it would still be especially with all the new perks coming in the future
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Never did the maths but now that you put the numbers, it's crazy how big they are... Clearly, ppl able to play 2.5k hours on this game are clearly no-lifer...
I have bought the game end of 2017 and i have 900 hours... Will never get anywhere near to unlock everything.
Atm, i'm playing 30h/week, i would need 5 years to unlock everything prestige 3 at that rate if they don't releas any new perks...
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You explained the matter really well so I don't feel the need to add more, but I completely agree.
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I ain't gonna try and convince you because I'd like to see perk tiers removed as well. Its a thing of the past, when there was 20-30 perks. Now.. its faaar beyond that.
I'd also like to see bloodpoint offerings reworked to be more streamlined, so I'd shamelessly provide a link to my own discussion where I provide a rework suggestion;
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/174323/bp-offering-rework-idea
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