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Why are we concerned about the other side having fun?
Seriously. This is a competitive game whether you admit it or not. It has 2 sides each with an opposing objective so they compete. The complaint I keep seeing in various forms is "that's not fun for the other side" In any other game with a multiplayer, when has the other side give a damn about someone else's fun? Do you see people in fortnite, overwatch, CoD, They fall saying "you shouldn't do that. Not because it's effective but because it's no fun for me". Killer, survivor, doesn't matter. If you want both sides to have fun then the game cannot be competitive. If your not having fun move onto the next match or take Kote's advice and "Play something else".
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Do you not want the game to be fun? I want both sides to have fun, I want the game to feel fair on both ends. I don't want the game to be a slaughter at 5 gens or a mass escape.
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You have fun by doing well, ideally matchmaking would prevent you from getting stomped, but players should not (and general do not) handicap themselves for their opponents.
If I see a situation where the best play is to camp, I’ll do it. Playing to win isn’t wrong in a game like this.
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Because if one side isn't having fun, the other will leave. Both sides are needed for this type of game to even function correctly, so we HAVE to care about both sides having a good game experience.
Just because I'm a killer main doesn't mean I'm entitled to care about survivor's fun, but at the same time, if they're not having fun, I'll have no game to play if they cease existing. Even if it is a competitive game (Yeah, it is btw), we're still all playing the same game; People will always be caught in the anonymity trap and be douchy just because they can, but those are the types of people that keep the game/community from growing (as new players will just leave because of the toxicity, or never join in the first place).
Post edited by RockoRango on16 -
You lost me when you said this game was competitive.
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Game's a game where some people are competitive and some aren't. Some people are going to prioritize different aspects of the game than we do, and that's fine.
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Because even when I'm feeling competitive, I enjoy it more when I know my opponent isn't miserable and I'm not being an annoying little [BAD WORD]? Like, I don't know where people got it in their minds that being competitive means you have to be an absolute [BAD WORD] tool. No, you can still win and destroy your opponent without having to make them feel like [BAD WORD].
Your examples don't make much of an impact, either. In most competitive games, both sides are trying their hardest and (hopefully) having a good time while doing so. Instead of wasting 10+ minutes of someone else's time by being an ass in Fortnite, the other guys screws up, you shoot him, and it's over. That's it. End of game, he gets in an tries again in a new match.
The closer exmaple would be MOBAs, but those are terrible examples because those communities are known the land over for being toxic, and are in fact where the term toxic for this kind of behavior originated from. Prior to that, we just called "toxic" players #########. But it needed new terminology when everyone was just a miserable sad sack in that genre as it blew up. Half the time the winning team isn't even having fun, everyone's just constantly pissed at everyone else. That's no way to enjoy a friggin' video game.
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this game not meant to be competitive game just because it only got rank mode matter nothing because ranks don't matter also all the game you listed are competitive games and have more balance also both sides don't play different like dbd ALSO THEY ARE FPS!!!
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I guess the reason you would want the other side to have fun is because you're a human being with empathy. Or do you enjoy being a bully?
Just because people play this game competitively doesn't mean it's a competitive game. Those two terms have a small but vital distinction. DBD only works and is fun when both sides agree to uphold the spirit of the game.
We should all be endeavoring to foster positivity and good gameplay rather than taking the game hostage by hard camping/tunnelling, sandbagging teammates, or bullying the killer.
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I don't care.
See in all other games bming is part of the game and I do not care whether the other team has fun in other games, be it dota, tekken or whatever I do play. It is hilarious to wipe a team in dota and taunt afterwards or spraypaint "LOOOSER!" after they just died or put on a voiceline for everybody to hear which just mocks them.
Really in dbd, yeah sometimes I do feel bad like when it is a baby killer or baby survivors (mmr good times) but yeah in the end i do not care and dont really see why I should. Because I think people are not little children and to lose a game is just that and not the end of the world. Somehow people here care whether or not the other person had fun. It is just an odd concern, i know some will tell me i am jerk but do keep in mind, I like to play the game, i want to win. I enjoy my wins and loss as well and I am fine with people mocking me for failing. I mean as long as you can laugh about your own fails, are people telling me they never made a stupid move and laughed about it because it was so dumb? Yeah but oh god other people are not allowed to laugh about it too.
Stop treating people like little kids, one bad game and they will leave. Yeah well okay so get lost and play tetris if you do not ragequit that as well once you lose. To lose is part of the game, i assume people are having fun otherwise they would play something else. 🤷♀️
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Even the most competitive sports in the world including the Olympics (which is about as competitive as it gets) have rules about sportsmanship, or rather unsportsmanlike conduct. That's why you generally don't see Olympians being massive asshats to each other, at least not often enough for it to be a widespread problem.
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"Competitive games are those in which players play against one another and where one player winning means another player loses. Two player games are often competitive, with a distinct win-or-lose outcome. ... Competitive games may involve multiple competing players or teams."
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Why wouldn't you want your opponent to have fun?
Fun isn't a zero sum game, at least not beyond the unavoidable fact that winning is usually more fun than losing.
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What I don't understand is the arguements both sides put forth because they aren't having fun.
"You shouldn't camp/tunnel as killer. It's no fun for me" "If your team is being over altruistic or it helps me complete my objective why shouldn't I?"
"You shoulnd't gen rush because I'm not having fun" "It's my objective. Why shouldn't I do it as efficiently as I can?"
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It's not that I don't want my opponenet to have fun but if I am wining because I am playing very well some people make it seem like I should stop winning. If one side is being out played why should the other go easy on them? Especially when one side wouldn't extend them the same courtesy if the situations were reversed?
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I always want everyone to have fun, but I'm not responsible for anyone's fun or behavior but my own. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. DbD is a competitive, full contact PVP game. The fun is in the competition. This isn't group therapy. We don't come here to share our feelings. Killers gonna kill and Survivors going to escape. That's it. If people don't enjoy adversity and competition, this is the WRONG game for them. I would say that most PVP games are WRONG for them.
We only get out of games what we put into them. If we are going to throw a fit or be upset when we lose, or something seemed to hard or unfair, then we do not have the temperament for a game like this. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes he eats you. I have fun even when the game is horrible and I'm getting curb-stomped. Of course I want to win. It goes without saying that nobody likes to lose. But the fun is in the competition, not the outcome. We don't win money or other REAL prizes, so the outcome of the game is meaningless. It is about the journey; it is about the fight.
I realize this may be an alien mindset to many of you who apparently started playing video games in this weird new world, but I assure you when PVP games first popped up we didn't spare a thought for this foolishness, nor did our opponents. You PLAY HARD. Don't cheat. Be humble in victory and gracious in defeat. That's it. You make your own fun, or not.
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lol, this guy. Bringing up nothing but symmetrical games when talking about an asymmetrical one.
Those games you don't give a ######### about the other side because they have all the same tools you do.
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/clap
There's not many examples of asymmetrical games that are still being played these days. FT13th? Evolve? Death Garden lmao
Besides asymmetrical doesn't hold much weight on these forums because many many many players are under the impression 1 survivor should be able to go toe to toe with the killer and stand an equal chance.
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No one is asking anyone to treat the other side like children: They're asking if people could treat others like they're all part of the same community (which we all are).
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It doesn't matter to me if it is asymmetrical or not. It is a PVP game, i.e. head to head competition. There will be winners and there will be losers. Game balance isn't in my wheelhouse. That is up the DEV. My job is to play the game to the best of my ability, not to cheat, and to be polite and well-mannered before and after the game. That's it. I want you to have fun, but I am NOT responsible for your fun. That is your job.
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Only killers are ever to respect the survivors' rulebook, didn't you know that?
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This. This exactly.
Killer and survivor are essentially playing two completely different games. You can't directly compare a survivor's skill to a killer's skill, even when the comparison seems quite stark.
There's nothing wrong with playing DBD comptetitively - heck I play Uno competitively. But I'm not going to pretend that Uno is a competitive e-sport. DBD is an asymmetrical game. Enjoy it for what it is.
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this game shouldn't be compared to other Competitive games because one it unbalance mess and both sides are very different there like different games
but on your camping thing your fine if they rushing the hook that on them but if they not rushing the hook you camping at 5 gens that not fun,gen rush survivors need a 2nd objective or 3rd because they 2nd objective is totems that may fix the camping so hard and the game could be fun for both sides.
I play both sides I know whats going on here golden rule I like if you can't say something nice don't say anything stop being toxic mocking people for your own fun that what not fun about this game the after game.
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But here is the rub, there are NO SIDES. This is a game. Simply by being players we are a community and all on the same side. I play both Killer and Survivor. I know some people only play one or the other. The "sides" construct is a fake one, because those only exist INSIDE the match. The second we leave the match we are just Players, i.e. no sides.
I'm all for everyone being polite and friendly before and after matches. But during them, we play as hard as we can.
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That's what I was getting at
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This is the mindset that makes both sides run DS/Unbreakable/BT and Corrupt/Pop/Noed.
And then guess what? Both sides complain about the other, because they DON'T HAVE FUN themselves going against these meta builds.
Imagine how fun would it be to run some gimmicky perks and builds without the fear of losing miserably to the other side, just because you didn't bring the necessary meta perks. But I guess we shouldn't care about others' fun, right?
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Good, sorry if I misread that. I'm glad we are on the same page.
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this right here is why the game is so toxic. It's not about treating people like kids it's about people getting enjoyment out of something they paid for. Real completion comes from an even playing field where all players have the same ability and some are just better then others. This game is nothing like that. If you enjoy doing the things you mentioned in competitive games, try going and playing a real sport, winning a game and then tea bagging the other team and taking the line maker and painting Losers on the field. See how far that gets you.
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Ummm... no. There are no SIDES, nor does everyone complain. A vocal minority of people insist on complaining. The Fun House Mirror that is a Forum makes it look like the whole community. Most people don't complain or comment, and think doing so is a waste of time. I don't complain about Survivor or Killer Perks, or what they build, or what tactics they use. Why? None of my business. I have enough to do with worrying about myself. IMAGINE how fun it would be to come to this forum and read some posts that aren't full of whining, whinging, endless complaints, and blaming others for one's own failures.
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The point I'll concede is that it's not my job to MAKE SURE my opponent has fun.
It is NOT my job to do things that TAKE AWAY their fun though.
If they are not enjoying the game, but I'm not doing anything to directly feed into that lack of enjoyment, than that's on them. It shouldn't be about me making a game fun for someone else, but my fun shouldn't rely on knowingly doing things that takes away the enjoyment either.
Long story short, my job is to have fun in a fair manner. The rest is up to them.
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You seem to be under the sorely mistaken assumption that people have a problem with losing. While some folks do take losing poorly, generally this subject is about people intentionally playing in such a way as to annoy or rob other players of fun. Flashlight clicking the entire match while teabagging isn't optimal play, facecamping someone for 4 minutes is not optimal play. Hiding around the map to force the killer to look for you when the gates are open just to waste time before you escape is not optimal play. Tunneling one guy while ignoring everyone else isn't optimal.
None of these are competitive plays, they're petty BS by children. These are the things that attempt to rob people of fun. Some folks are bothered by it, some aren't. But the intent is clear: you are playing only to ruin someone else's time.
You winning a match is not robbing someone of their fun, obviously some win and some lose. That's a completely different subject.
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That's fair, and I guess I can agree that if you're playing a normal game then the fact that the other side isn't having fun probably isn't your fault. But when people talk about a game being no fun for the other side around here, it's usually one of two things. Something like a 4-Man SWF w/ 3 Flashlights and a Key, or Iri Huntress + Ebony, the kind of things where it's clear one side won't have any fun because the other has a massive advantage from the jump. Or bad behavior like excessive BM, or slugging for the 4k, things that provide maybe a marginal level of 'fun' for one side but are a massive PITA for the other.
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What do you even mean by "There are no sides"? What.
And no, the forum isn't the only place people complain. Countless youtubers, streamers, players in the endgame chats, content creators and even my friends show that.
And I bet you must have tons of fun being 1 hooked and camped by a bad killer with noed, or being gen rushed by a 4 man SWF with meta perks with an Ormond offering. Very fun indeed. You may not care, but many players concerned with the game's health do.
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I think it is very much about winning and losing, and you are engaging in a rhetorical trick to move the goalposts. I'm all about good sportsmanship. I think tea-bagging and other obnoxious things are horrible; I've said so many times (and will again). We agree good sportsmanship should be that to which we all aspire.
That, however, is NOT what this thread is REALLY about. It is the same old song and dance of people trying to shame certain tactics, perks, behaviors, etc. in game because they find them difficult to play against. Don't try to confuse apples and oranges here. I will camp, tunnel, slug, and Mori if I believe it is the right tactical call at the time. Many new (or bad) Killers do these things incorrectly, not in optimal ways, but that doesn't change the fact that those are just tactics and none of my (or your) business. They gonna be them; we should just be us.
I've had people accuse me of camping when I was on the other side of the map. I've been accused of tunneling when I hooked every Survivor three times and none in consecutive order. I've been accused of it ALL, and usually without merit. I've also done all of those things and will again. Do you get my point? If you want to turn this Thread into a discussion of good sportsmanship, i.e. about salt, tea-bagging, etc. I'm all for it. But don't pretend that is what this thread is about right now.
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pretty much what I'm trying to say.
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For me fun ,or at least not a stressful nightmare, shoukd be the goal for both sides. What a side complains about is likely an effective method that directly interupts the other, the further unbalanced the more yelling.
That magic impossibility would be to unlearn the toxic and/or sweat tactics that infuriates a side, but there's the catch. Survs don't wanna be slugged, killers refuse to be stunned and hate DS and the 118 other things you can try to pull off with DS, and so on. All of it can be devastating and heartbreaking. But dammit they work. It's a vicious cycle.
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I never made claims that it was about winning or losing, so claiming I'm moving goalposts is ridiculous. You want to make it all about how you "totally owned them and now they're salty" or whatever, but in my experience, in 99% of games it's all just "gg" at the end when it comes down to normal games with normal wins or losses. It is decidedly different end-game chat when someone's being a twat the whole time.
Yes, some people do get salty at losing, and most of the time I'd wager it's people like you, who are obsessed with winning like you're going to get prize money or something. People who aren't obsessed about winning generally don't care as much if they lose.
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Where or better how exactly are they treated as if they are not part of the community?
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Methinks you missed the point. I pointed out there is NO prize money (not prizes at all). Thus, the game's fun is in the competition. We are here for the conflict, the struggle, the PVP. If someone doesn't like those things, this is the wrong game for them to be playing. There is no judgement in that statement. I'm bored to tears by World of Warcraft and Minecraft. Those are not the right games for me, and thus you will not find me there. I don't spend my time on their Forums complaining about the game they love, nor telling them how things SHOULD be. I was the odd man out, so I left to find games to which I'm more suited. Do you get my point?
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I don't think its okay to be rude to people who are playing a computer game with you, but the original question in this thread was more about modifying the way you play so that other people have fun.
I don't think you should make yourself lose so that everyone else has a good time, but I do think that the main point of playing a game with other people is for all of you to have fun. And I'll confess that I didn't always believe that when I was young, but now I'm old, and I think things like "Everyone deserves a chance to get some points," and "It's more fun if we all get to play," and "This guy has had a rough game; I don't need to body block him from his only hook."
At the same time, some of the most unpleasant games I've ever had have been ones where, in the early game, I went out of my way to be considerate of the people I was playing against and, in the late game, they went out of their way to troll me. It feels really bad when that happens, but I don't think the answer is for me to troll, too.
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Because I like to play with people, not against people (even though we may be on opposing sides during the game). I derive my enjoyment from having a good match with fair (as far as possible) odds of success... not by beating the other side with hacks, exploits, or gameplay that would be considered unsporting.
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Because we're not jerks???? Is this a serious question?
There's no game or sport I can think of where I'm not more entertained by a fair, fun, and close match than by a complete blowout. Volleyball, dodgeball, every game I've ever played. The matches are more fun when there's back and forth. When the game is relatively even. When everyone is having some fun.
One side not having any fun or any chance of winning or at least enjoying the game sucks the fun right out of the other side. Unless you're a dick
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You don't have to be. But if you aren't, don't come complaining when the other side makes the game unfun for you. You're a killer who likes to camp and tunnel? That's fine. But don't come moaning about how survivors brought 4 BNP's, 4 DS's, 3 Unbreakables, and Object of Obsession. You're a survivor who likes to run OoO and make killers DC? Don't complain when they camp and tunnel you.
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We agree on SOME of that but there is one glaring exception. I believe the following:
- Do not cheat, i.e. use hacks or lag spikes.
- Do not disconnect; if you start a game finish it.
- Be humble in victory and gracious in defeat, i.e. no salt.
Where we differ is that little bit about "unsporting" game play you snuck in at the end. That is total, and complete garbage because it is entirely subjective, i.e. the parodied Survivor's Rules for Killers that Samination makes fun of frequently. Everything that is within the rules is sporting, that's it.
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You're welcome to disagree with my opinion, but the point was the subjective perspective.
I like to play in a sporting manner... whether others choose to or not is not within my ability to control. The reason I care about the other side's fun is because I like to play in a sporting manner.
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Taunting is part of it, deal with it.
Maybe actually watch sports or do some at some point and realize that taunting is there as well to the same amount as in online games also very good to think that a spraypaint in dota is something to take literally into the real world. Maybe try to find a more fitting comparison.
Taunting however is not humiliating, that is the part that you do not understand.
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What does being played actually have to do with the argument? They compared chess to checkers then said that's why Wheaties is the breakfast cereal of champs.
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We will have to agree to disagree. The problem is that your "sporting manner" is a subjective mess that is defined entirely by you, and judging (and shaming) anyone who doesn't play how you would like them to be. By default, if they aren't playing by what you consider a "sporting" way then they are unsportsmanlike? Do you see the clear implication? This is that sneaky move the goalposts thing. Players are responsible for their own fun. This is a competitive PVP game where the rules are completely transparent. Those rules are what define what is sporting and not sporting... NOT you.
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Honestly it’s like some of these people have never played a competitive game. If they really have an issue with a certain part of the game being “unfun” don’t go at the players go at the devs of the game for implementing it and letting it stay for 4 years lmao.
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I mean, this is a game. I think it should be supposed to be fun, for killer and survivor. If there is no fun involved, only frustration, why play at all? And we should be concerned about others feelings because we are all human. That is why I'm against people t-bagging, being toxic all the time and ruining the fun for killers or killers doing their best to be toxic too.
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The people who complain about that know that dbd is not and will never be competitive.
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