keys vs moris
lets be honest how many survivors actually use keys and how many killers bring moris.
Killers can play "scummy" at will they have perks and addons that give them exposed aura reading and even mori capabilities on top of the fact that they have a power. Also there is this thing called franklins that is really good to run if you dont even want to deal with items. Survivors can either prioritize gens, become a looping god during the match or get lucky with a key. Gens is the most practical boring and unfun strat to get a win but it doesn't mean that a gens before friends survivor will live.
Also killers can play around someone with a key so that if anything they are the only ones to escape since they have to do a certain amount of gens based on how many people are alive. I've played like this and ended with a 3k and that is completely acceptable because im not too hard up about 1 person escaping the trial anyways.
Bringing a key does not confirm anything and is only useful mid to late game and chances barely increase if you are highly skilled. If you are a competent killer a mori grantees you a kill early game and at that point the match is over if they dont have a key. Also I dont mind keys because escaping a trial for survivors is 5000+ points by itself. Its kind of unfair how important that is to your score and whether you pip or not to be fair. Its the most points either role can get for a single action and it is very unlikely to happen on a regular basis.
I wouldn't say that killers have the "power role" but they are definitely more in control of how a match goes than people think but this is completely based on the skill of the player so regardless of which term you use it still means you are a bad killer if it seems like things dont go your way often. I have a feeling that killers complaining the most are probably wraith or trapper mains because I've never seen a nurse or spirit main leave the game in some farewell post on these forums.
I've always said that the strongest killer is better than the strongest group of survivors.
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ok cool
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Woof, where to start here.
Firstly, this should be called 'Whataboutism: A Thread'.
Secondly, survivors that use keys generally grab them the second the game is about to start, so forget Franklins.
Thirdly, killers are absolutely not in the power role. Unless they are a 1000+ hour monster with all the meta perks unlocked, the killer is going to struggle if even one survivor is decked out. And that's taking SWF out of the equation.
Fourthly: Highly skilled...whaaa?
Finally: Strongest killer vs strongest survivors...give some tourneys a watch and get back to me.
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Can’t really argue with most of that.
A solo brings a key, usually, to have a solo chance to escape, ‘cause who knows how the rest of the team will play.
SWFs with keys is problematic.
SWF in general is problematic
...for everyone in DBD land.
That’s the real reason for this discussion, and many other posts in this forum... SWF.
SWF has altered and negatively impacted the game for Solo and Killer, drastically, depleting the fun level😔
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finding keys are even more unlikely than survivors bringing them into games, now I dont have any statistics for this but we can all at least agree that ebony and ivory moris wre more present in games than pink and purple keys.
I never said killers are the power role not sure why people dont thoroughly read op before posting, they kinda just take things out of context and then argue.
as for the strongest killer vs strongest survivor you also didnt fully understand that either. I never said that in the context of a tournament. the most skilled players using what they want to completely demolish the other side is what I meant.
that means you get a spirit or a nurse that can use an ebony mori they;re best addons and extremely oppressive perks.
also what I meant by highly skilled is that your skill level does not effect the power of the key within the game whereas if you are a skilled top tier killer the mori is just overkill as it allows you to control the match far more than regular where some survivor would be able to overcome your capabilites.
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You are right, actually my post is just a grouping of a bunch of counterarguments I had for many other posts I saw on the forum. Its not to be looked at as a cohesive complete thought.
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- Not talking about finding keys. I'm talking about waiting until the last second before the lobby closes to equip one. I see this done with toolboxes and keys frequently, likely to avoid Franklins or a lobby dodge. There's no physical way to get Franklins in time.
- You essentially said 'killers aren't the power role, but tumpty tumpty tumpty they are the power role'.
- Shrug. Much like you can get a 4 man Blendette SWF with object, 3 tricked out toolboxes and a key.
- That's just silly. Of course having a key is exacerbated by being skilled - as you can almost be sure you'll survive.
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How is his own thread that he started, titled "keys vs moris", "whataboutism"? I think you misunderstand the definition of the word because it definitely doesn't fit here
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dude you are trying so hard to nit pick my original post worst part is you are not even making any sense
I said if a killer has franklins I in no way said the killer has to wait until they see a key in pre game lobby to equip it. if you already have Franklins then your point doesnt matter - thats outta the way
when I was talking about the power role I did not make a definitive statement. I merely felt uncomfortable with the term power role. again its just something you are nit picking so there is no real point to be made with this.
that is very true. survivors are also allowed to not hold back in the same scenario but I just dont see the survivors winning, drawing ok that's possible but more than one survivor escaping through the exit gate? highly unlikely. you are not disproving anything you are just using the whataboutism that you apparently have a disdain for
and your last remark is just ridculous
a 7,000 hour survivor main has most of their skill in map awareness and killer awareness. Besides their main talent which is looping extremely effectively they have a good game sense of when and where to be and what to do. Having a key does NOT guarantee you will live anymore than using your game sense to escape (all of this is also affected by luck of course). Also a unskilled survivor with a key can experience just as much ease as the skilled survivor when it comes to escaping with a key whereas a skilled killer increases their control and map pressure and moris are directly related to the most important action a killer will perform throughout the match which is hooking and downing survivors. But a bad killer may only get to use their ebony mori once or twice because they lack the ability to down survivors quickly among other things
alright so if you are somehow still unsatisfied with something lets just call it a "difference of opinion" because you are no longer arguing for the sake of an enlightened discussion
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thank you
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They both suck.
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Because if you read the OP, he's doing a 'well killers are OP so keys are fine'. That's whataboutism.
This is a video game forum mate. If you want to have an 'enlightened discussion'...this may not be the place for it.
- What killers run Franklins baseline, and why?
- Yes, you are (and were) being deliberately fuzzy. But your point was pretty clear.
- What exactly do you mean by 'winning' here?
- Now this is just getting silly. Are you saying that having a key does not have an effect on a survivors chance to survive? Or that a skilled survivor with a key is no better off than a newbie with a key? Honestly, not sure - but either way...just no.
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The killers definitely are the power role. The maps are either small-medium in size and all killers move at a speed fast enough to get from gen to gen and easily find people. Some killers are even faster to where survivors really can’t do their job. Killer perks make it take longer when it’s already long enough. Killer abilities and add ons make it easy to get downs quick. It’s a disappointment in 7-8/10 matches I play as survivor. Usually left with 2-3 gens to work on by myself. Killers have it too easy if you know how to play them right. They are the power player in each match not just from a 1v1 perspective, but also from a 1v4 perspective (4 weak ass survivors with such futile perks to work with)
Distortion should be better than 3 charges.
decisive strike should be 1 time use available every time you get off the hook. Not disabled after a fail. It’s a perk.... that’s simply a stupid idea when you think about 5 seconds being such a minuscule delay anyways. The killer catches back up to you almost immediately after.
the list goes on and on. But I really do believe especially on smaller maps it’s almost unfair and not really worth the time to do 5 generators that are already boring to do just to get mowed down by the killer over some nonsensical killer speed and latency issues if you wish to call it that. However I think the hitbox is screwed up. You clear a vault and you still get whacked. Killers have insane lunge abilities allowing them to land a hit from the other side of a loop by lunging around it. If the loop is that small they need to fix it. Chases are already too short against some of these killers that have ez 1 hit abilities and add ons. It’s too much. Then you get hooked and proxy camped until the next guy gets one hit knocked as well. I play killer too, I know.
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I do agree like I said I just prefer to say killers have control over they are the power role. to each their own
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I land 3-4 kills every single game as a killer. It’s not difficult. Quite frankly I think I could do better with higher mobility killers than the ones I usually play which is wraith and plague. Although wraith does have an add on that lets him be faster while he’s invisible that is nice!! But I think survivors need better hiding! Better perks! Better survivability. It’s too easy to find survivors in this game. That’s a huge problem when you consider how lethal it is for a killer to always be in the know in a game where survivors die really fast. You might think 3 hooks is a lot. But it’s actually not realistic to think you have that many chances in even half of the games you play as a survivor. It’s either a Mori after 1st hook, tunneled or left on hook until struggle phase because of proxy camping. It’s a joke how weak survivors are lol how most of the map feels like a dead zone with no cover no bushes bad pallets bad loops. 😆😆😆 do I really have to keep explaining Why the killer has the power role?
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It absolutely destroys me inside to see people whine about how playing killer is unfair. They post their pictures showing 2-4 survivors escaping on them when I know for a fact it’s their fault! Not the games fault. It’s actually worse on killers that fail as opposed to survivors that fail. Because killers have it way easier. The 3 keys to beating survivors that might require a bit of spending or time is 1) a good headset 2) map knowledge/experience 3) please equip perks that give you information about your next target 😂 all too often I see people post complaining and I see what perks they were running and I laugh because they had nothing that gives them opportunities to snowball or move onto another target. Which tells me they probably camped hooks the whole game which resulted in 2/3 ppl escaping..
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it does take a bit of effort and potentially some stress getting your 3-4 kills every game. But it’s certainly a lot more entertaining than playing survivor. It is Dreadfully stale repairing gens or running a killer that most of the time is going to down you really fast. Then you stare at a damn hook. It’s much more entertaining to do literally anything else with my time. Killers are definitely better 🤙🏼
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Mori's are more powerful, but keys are just as annoying.
A Mori can take one player out of the game very early. You get a survivor down twice before two or three gens pop, and you've turned the game into a 3v1. You can easily dwindle their numbers from there. It's almost as if a player disconnected from the match. It can have a huge effect. The earlier its used, the more effect it has.
Keys on the other hand, can be found in chests. Going into the game, you pretty much know if a killer has a Mori. Yesterday I had TWO games in a row where survivors found keys with Plunderer's, and had a two-person escape. Each time I was doing REALLY well. First time, I had two killed before they completed more than 2 gens! And it was on Ormond of all maps. Then they completed only one more gen, and they escaped through the hatch. Game over. Didn't matter how well I did in the match. Nothing I did mattered. Very next game, I was having another pretty good game. Had a strong three gen. One player out. Then two survivors made a lot of noise, I went to check it out, and they teabagged me as they jumped into the hatch. Nothing I could've done to stop it. "Bring Franklin's!" you say. Why? It's a waste of perk slot. And I couldn't have known they were going to find a key.
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Baseline keys are fine.
Two solos with keys? Fine.
A duo queue with keys? Fine.
A SWF with keys? Nah.
Tbh I don't mind base keys. Heck, I don't even mind the strong add-ons, seeing as though they have a time constraint (Blood Amber). I do think though that SWF with a key is just nasty. I'll run a chest build with my group, and the minute I get a key, everyone will swap over to hatch mode. AKA: Rush gens and just leave. It's honestly not really my favourite way to play, nor the reason I love chest build, but it is efficient.
I do think though that unless you're going against an extremely optimal 4 man SWF with a key, Ebony Moris are a lot more impactful. The ability to delete anyone from the game is insane, and it makes killers really strong- especially considering how the threat of death hook, and having less teammates is what makes Killer's mid to late game so much stronger then the early game.
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this guy XD
well now its been a while since I talked about fallacies but if I were doing a "Because if you read the OP, he's doing a 'well killers are OP so keys are fine'. That's not a tu quoque fallacy its more like a strawman. That's not to say that I have an extremely logical and well structured argument in my op. Besides that now you are just becoming obnoxious You have reached the point where you are asking questions with very obvious answers as if you do not know them but to what end? It's almost as if you do not have any trust in anything I say whatsoever so you are in constant denial of any of my explanations as if im trying to trick you with completely false logic. You might even say that my op has a bit of Equivocation. Meanwhile everyone else is just adding to the discussion in a very decent way. idk some people just make me wonder sometimes
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I completely agree. I kinda feel like people are mainly upset with killers because they know that another person is controlling them. If the killer was ai survivors would not complain about camping and tunneling because they would accept that the ai will attempt to do those things when certain conditions are met.
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yeah thats why I really do believe there should be restrictions on key usage. I also dont like the fact that survivors tent to find some way to bm in every situation that they feel like they have the upper hand.
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You mean the green mori can take one player out of the game very early. You are wrong to equate keys to moris. ebony Moris are way more powerful than skeleton keys. Survivors have to do ALL or almost all of their objectives still! 3-5 gens can be difficult to complete on most maps because they are small enough for killers to patrol them very easily therefore finding their first victim very easily. Then you hook the survivor and tunnel him or her as soon as he or she gets off and that persons dead? Just like that... in order for survivors to even see the hatch at least 3 gens have to be done. At the rate killers can find people and Mori them 3 gens won’t get done MOST of the time. Key vs Mori - Mori wins every time. Green Mori’s are more fair tbh
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I think keys serve a vital purpose in the game because it allows for every single person to have a chance at getting out with their life regardless of what their other 3 teammates have done to help out. As you should be able to CLEARLY see about this game, your teammates cannot always be relied upon for jack diddly squat. So how is it fair for that person to have to do 5 generators all by himself? Find Swf? That is not likely always a feasible solution. People want to enjoy the game either alone or with 1,2 or 3 other teammates. You can’t just give that 4th solo guy zero chance at escaping just because his other 3 teammates put him in that position and you as a killer feel entitled to that 4th kill. You’re not entitled to anything. It’s already too damn easy to down people in this game 😂 I’ve been playing this game for years! Both sides.
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Yeah killer addons that enable aura reading are comparable to keys and moris...yeah...
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As for Mori’s I see no purpose for them. An offering should not be able to cut your objective down by a whopping 66.7% (2/3 or reduced down to 1 hook as opposed to 3) That’s the majority of your work that in my opinion you should have to do At least half of it! The key cuts down on survivor objectives at the most by 40% (with 2 gens not having to be done out of 5. *2/5 = 40% left to do)
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Oh man, now we are going to get into semantic quibbling and bickering about fallacies.
Tell you what, mate. You have fun.
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I was pointing out some things that bother me within arguments of different posts in the forum. For the most part I am against both but moris are far more broken.
also the rules are not as simple as killer kills survivor survives. shoutout to the dev team for making a game a bit more complicated than that. the ranking system match results emblem systems and point count do not just factor in those two.
i will also point out that there is a bit of disconnect in your post. You start with keys and moris and apparently you think those are justified because of what you think the roles are "supposed" to do. Then your last note is just to make sure I understand that you are partial to the killer role.
oh another thing that I just realized made no sense is how you also cant understand my op because I didnt pick a side. like there is no point on having a list of arguments surrounding they keys and moris debate but also being for the most part neutral.
another thing I guess I forgot to mention is that killers on average kill *3 survivors per game* I know that stats were posted officially on the forums somewhere so I mean that goes without saying that killers are definitely doing their "job" in your eyes.
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lxl people like you I like to call ben shapiros. You talk like you are extremely intelligent but you're really not that smurt or at least from what you have posted so far here. I'm sure you actually might be smurt
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As killer I enjoy the challenge of a good SWF so anyone who complains about them needs to stop complaining and step up to the challenge. Yes some SWFs can be toxic, but not all of them. I might get frustrated a lot with them as killer, toxic and not, but I look at it as a change to improve. I lose respect for anyone that complains about them.
As for key vs. Mori...
They are very different things.
Mori grants the power for a killer to immediately kill a survivor. Ever time i see a mori when i play surivior i expect it to be used after first hook. You know what? Usually the case. One hook mori, 5 gens left followed by three more and maybe 1 or two gens done by the last one.
Keys open hatch, yes. What killers when I ng about keys seem to forget is that so many gens need to be done for hatch to even spawn. Its not like hatch spawns at the start of the match, or spawns when the first person is hooked. It's basically a paperweight until hatch spawns and a death sentence for anyone who brings one in. They are pretty much a guaranteed tunnel.
Personally I get more pissed off about flashlights in my lobby than a key.
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I agree. Mori (ebony, in this case) has a much bigger potential to affect more than one survival when compared to a key. Rarely more than one survivor escape with a key. In fact, rarely there is a key escape at all.
Moris are much more commonly used because their requirement for use is much easier, just one hook and then a down. That's it, that player is out of the trial.
For comparison, to use a key, you cannot be the first to die (you might be targeted and tunneled for using it), there is a number of gens vs survivors alive required for the hatch to spawn and then if these two requirements are met you have to find the hatch in the map before the killer finds you. Then, if you do, more than one survivor escaping in a game of randoms is very rare.
In SWF things are a bit different, yes, but there is a need to consider that good SWFs comes in smaller number of games. In my opinion, ebony mori should allow killing only one survivor after the first hook. That by itself it already very powerful, generally means a won game if it's done in the beginning of the trial and the killer is half good.
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I also believe that moris should be base! My idea was that killers get to mori 1 person after all survivors have been hooked at least once. I think it would reward killers who play well and spread pressure but just not enough to completely slow down gens. Also keys being only found in chests is an interesting idea but I think killers dont like that fact survivors can find keys mid to late game and hop out. Another idea I had is to make keys glow when survivors have them or they are on the ground or keys reveal your aura to killers every so often.
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