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Scott and otz on ds vs pop.
Tldr:Ds is a lot stronger as its a guarantee despite only being once per match (for you there is 4 survivors in a match) and giving survivor complete invincibility for one minute with ub. And like otz said you could pretty much bring any obsession perk and the killers forced to slow down their momentum at risk of being hit by it for no reason. (Im just using these 2 because everyone likes these two over the others others like tru3 agree but tru3s just bad apparently).
Comments
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Yeah scottjund's video covers pretty much all points made in the recent threads comparing the two.
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For me there is one key difference.
I NEVER WANT TO USE DS WHEN I HAVE IT. As a killer, I want to use Pop whenever I can. The killers is also technically in control of when both perks are used as the killer has to A) Hook someone, B) Down the survivor again and C) Pick them up.
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Honestly, there's no comparison. DS is a huge issue. Pop, not so much. It's just going to hurt the killers that needed it, while all the Freddy's have it just like normal.
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Well scott does kinda go into something like that to pop forces the killer to stop their momentum to kick a gen which could be on the other side of the map even with the 60 seconds right now. Ds kinda survivors can do what they want for 60 seconds hop on a gen get healed unhook another survivor ect.
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I wonder how will devs respond to this (if at all). I'd be nice to see some further changes to DS making it more of an anti-tunneling perk rather then anti-momentum perk.
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Also one ds a survivor gets 23 seconds of distance which if they are decent at looping for a fair estimate could add another 30 seconds and thats just after 1 add another like 10 seconds to hook and itd probably take another 10 to head to another gen. 3 gens just popped from 1 ds. Also like he said "3 seperate devs said the new ds was submitted as a anti tunneling perk" when peanits made his famous quote was the old ds which just stunned you no matter what IT WAS A ANTI MOMENTUM not this new one.
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'If you don't like it, you can always go play Civs.'
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They wont. If they do it will be an off hand comment on a thread. Nothing will change
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Specifically for the last line about Tru3ta1ent - he's definitely not a bad killer (Probably in the top 1% of english speaking killers to be honest). The reason people give more credence to Otzdarva and Scottjund is that they are more known to be objective and consistent. Tru3 has a habit of leaning into his ego with in turn colors his opinions more when talking about game balance while the other two tend to be more humble (at least in the image they portray - who can truely know what they're thinking to themselves).
As for the topic - yes DS is more oppressive and it's a flawed platform to even talk about Pop goes the Weasel to begin with as they're not even addressing the same issues - just respective bandaids to the current unhealthy state of the game. That "threat" of DS is why you can see and even feel a marked difference in matches without an obsession in play - removing a survivor outright by hover camping or using perks, addons and powers to sus out the more vulnerable survivor. It's why getting Mori'd off first hook feels even more terrible and people don't like being unable to play the game by being targeted until you barely make 3~6k bp for the match because no one brought an obsession perk (Even if it wasn't DS).
On the Killer side that completely conditional slowdown kick is almost always necessary due to current gen speeds and slow regression rate on an unperked kick (which basically isn't even worth the time you take to kick it) that any killer trying to win off their snowballs are basically required to run it if they aren't running something like Undying+Ruin instead. It's another subject about objectives and chase times that killers have to deal with which is being barely held together by bandaid perks like Pop.
Post edited by ZCerebrate on6 -
Nice to see there’s a huge uprising against DS because Pop got a slight nerf.
Comparing DS and PGTW is like comparing apples to oranges....
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Remember that every second a Killer loses by getting DS´ed translates to 3 seconds of gen completion since 3 Survivors will be working on gens. In Scott´s pretty conservative example: 1 DS equals 120 seconds of gen time(400 are needed to finish them all).
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i mean, Ruin was deleted and there was a ton of feedback about going through with it
i expect no difference
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Yeah ds is way worse because no downsides literally. Except being once which theres 4 survivors.
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Sure, if it’s a well coordinated SWF that’s on a competitive level, but for most, if not all of solo games that is not the case
Balancing perks based on coordinated SWF teams isn’t the right way to go.
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Multiple downsides actually,
1- Makes you the obsession, which can be detrimental to yourself if the killer is running Rancor or Remember me.
2- Requires you to be unhooked to even get use out of it.
3- You need to hit a difficult skill check
4- You can be slugged
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You don´t have to be a tournament squad to sit on a gen. But I agree, it´s not much of an issue against afking survivors or people that explore the maps in awe of the great art design.
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1:being the obsession forces to killer to slow their momentum for the fear of any ds.
2:like that wont happen.
3:anyone above rank 10 i hope can hit ds because i havent missed one in forever.
4: unbreakable.
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Except that we've already crossed that Rubicon. Even at low/intermediate level, SWFs are the norm now, not the exception. And that's with the SWF smurfcomp protections removed (why?) and killer matchmaking removed (why?).
Either BHVR needs to balance around SWF, or offset matchmaking to ensure that the coordination bonus SWFs have is reflected in the opponents they are put up against.
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I would argue that it is the right way to go since it should have trickle down effects for overall game balance - same reason MOBAs like Dota and League balance in this manner.
The problem is that solo queues are directly denied information sharing of any kind - ingame chat, pings, preset text macros (If you want to avoid toxicity) while devs ignore that SWFs will usually run 3rd party voice chat while playing. That imbalance is what needs to be at least partially remedied in order for balancing in this manner to make sense - "Immersion" (the biggest argument against solo queues getting any form of commmunication) gets thrown out the window within the first 100 hours of gameplay anyway... just say the Archivist has begun to pity the survivors and helping them through psionics then. Consequently the Killers should then get buffed with the baseline assumption that all survivors can work together at a baseline level - outside of trying to mime directions with limited emotes.
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And what is the source of this information? As far as I’m aware BHVR haven’t released any info on solo-SWF ratio recently.
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Everyone needs to see 10:55 on this video, literally everyone.
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Really I usually go out of my way to ds the killer when it is active, especially when their chasing me or i'm on a gen.
It works every time too when you get chased with ds and its got maybe 15 sec left you purposefully make a bad play, go down, the killer picks you up because he assumes no more ds, boom free chase extension even better with 99'd sprint burst.
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I'm at work, hook a coconut up.
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Prima facie. Play a hundred+ games as killer (as I've done over the last 6 weeks) and you'll notice it quite quickly. The two most common variations I'm seeing in my terrible ranks are a 2-3 stack of red or high purples queuing with a deranked or smurf accoun or a 3-4 stack queuing with Object.
You can also observe Otz streams, where Object (which nearly always implies a premade) is so common he has just started to play around it.
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Basically what he's talking about is the "BUT DS ISN'T ANTI TUNNEL, BECAUSE PEANITS SAYS IT IS" argument. Scott explains how it 100% is an anti-tunnel perk, because if it wasn't, it wouldn't activate if a survivor was recently unhooked (he also says he has screenshots of other devs like Mclean saying it was intended for anti-tunnel). He also explains how, even if DS was anti momentum, it wouldn't be fair at all, because perks that stop a killers momentum, just for simply existing with barely any input from the other side shouldn't exist (he brings up old MoM as an example).
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"I swear to god if someone else links me the link of peanits saying its not a anti tunnel ive been told by 3 other devs the new one is a anti tunnel the old one was anti momentum since itd stun for no reason"
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Scott: “whataboutisms - stop with it!!”
Scott in this video: “okay, this isn’t a whataboutism...(proceeds with a 11 minute whataboutism)”
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lol noted.
Sounds about right to me XD
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The easiest solution to SWF would be to artificially inflate the MMR (or whatever metric DbD uses to match players) of people queuing together, increased proportionally to the number of people in the SWF group, and also to go back to the system where SWF groups would always face a killer based on the highest ranked person in the party, not the lowest.
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Decisive Strike has one thing that Pop doesn't which is when a survivor runs into a locker with DS active it basically gives them a massive 'bugger off' situation for the killer where they're faced with two options. Either take them out of the locker and eat the 5 second stun or basically let the survivor go and give up essentially giving them 60 seconds to do what they want. Paired with other perks like a primed inner strength and survivors can get what is basically quasi-invicibility. Regarding changes for Pop and DS these what I think are the best changes for it:
DS deactivates whenever the survivor goes into a locker. Nice and simple. Everything else can stay but get rid of the stupid locker plays because survivors shouldn't feel invicible in a locker just because they have DS active.
Shave 5% regression off PGTW and give it to the normal generator kick instead. Using the perk still has the same benefit (25%) regression however having the extra 5% on baseline generator kicks would be actually nice since current regular kicks are laughably ineffective in terms of generator regression.
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Yeah, I get so infuriated when people defend DS by saying it isn't anti tunnel, I'm glad Scott addressed these points, because god damn, those arguments are flawed.
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1) Killers don't run those perks at high levels because they are bad.
2) Ok
3) Doesn't matter at high level play which is what we are talking about
4) Doesn't matter at high level play, typically a survivor jumps into a locker when the killer gets close. Or they run UB.
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You don't need to be top tier 1% to know how to repair generators. I've had multiple solo games when you actually get good team and killer got dominated because every survivor knew how to repair gens efficiently, then the killer accused us random solos for being SWF
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Yeah because the alternative is that when there is no obsession killers feel more free to tunnel/camp and that is an issue in itself.
DS should create some type of choice for killers who would otherwise take advantage of both of those two built in mechanics.
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Simple solution. Rework DS to be truly anti-tunnel. Always have an obsession to make both the killer and survivors play more wary of obsession based perks. All around more fair and would still discourage tunneling.
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They Are both saying ds should actually prevent actual tunneling and not punish someone for downing people quickly. I could go on a hook spree and get hit by ds after hooking 2 others. I didnt tunnel but i got hit. What they are suggesting is make it true anti tunnel and not some ######### you to your Momentum perk because old mettle of man did that and it was stupid.
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Only the first is a (very conditional) downside. The other three are not downsides. 2-3 are conditions, and the fourth is a method to try and play around it.
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So you think that every time you down people too quickly means the killer actually playing “optimal”?
Camping a survivor and forcing others to trade is not playing optimal, it is taking advantage of a built in mechanic which forces survivors to make risky plays. Plays which would not be able to do, would those perks not exist.
I mean their whole argument would make more sense if DS was strictly an anti tunnel perk which it isn’t. The punishment is you didn’t play around the perk. Much like when you get camped and actually tunneled because of no obsession in the match.
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Hmmm To play around ds i slug right. What do survivors have? Oh yeah its a perk called unbreakable isnt it? Also they can just jump in a locker.
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Dont worry if they get up down them again, your only timer is their dying state bar.
#unlimitedslugging
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Oh Then what do they have? A perk called soul guard which is another second chance perk? Damn these survivors have everything.
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Otz is just saying that an obsession doesn't allow you to tunnel. People actually like this guy? Wow.
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Hes saying a obsession even being in the game forces you to slow your momentum because you can hook 2 survivors and still get stunned by a ds which then makes you lose up to 40 seconds of time (even longer if the survivors a god looper) another anti momentum perk was MoM which was horrible. Also hes one of the better players.
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No, he didn't mention anything about a second survivor. "Killers have to be mindful anytime someone goes down too quickly after an unhook" i.e. I can't put this survivor back on the hook after downing them 10 seconds after their last hook.
"He's one of the better players" is extremely debatable. This community might be a little better if people didn't praise streamers and their opinions.
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I wouldn't really compare DS to Pop goes the Weasel. I'd say this nerf to Pop is a shadow buff to Cheryl's perk Repressed Alliance. Repressed Alliance currently locks a generator for thirty seconds. With current pop, a killer might have to wait but has a good chance to pop the gen still. With the reduced timer, Repressed Alliance can lock a gen for all but 15 seconds of Pop goes the Weasel. That gives a smaller window to the killer. At least that's my suspicion. Though my concern with this nerf is how much time do you get in Tier 1 and Tier 2? Not everyone has their perks up to Tier 3. If it's as it is current, 25 seconds in Tier 1 isn't really enough time. If it's 35 seconds, then that's not a huge reduction.
DS is a bit more complicated. It's more comparable to NoED. Though I'd say DS is still stronger on account of NoED being able to be removed before it even does anything. But both exist as a sort of incentive for the other side to not rush their objective. I'm sure some killers never tunnel, and they still get affected by DS. Happened to me just yesterday. I left the hook, did not come back, chased someone else, then found the survivor who got unhooked sitting on a generator. He wouldn't leave it for anything. I picked him up, got DS'ed and he finished the gen in my face as I waited for the stun to end. There was pretty much nothing I could do. Of course NoED has the advantage of not notifying the survivor that its in the match. While Killers have some sort of indictator there is no DS. So it's sort of a trade off.
If you're going to nerf DS you mess with the balance of the game in a significant way. You can't just cut the timer or put on conditions. (I think that would turn it less into an anti-tunneling perk and more of a bully-the-killer perk because most people just wouldn't run it unless they intentionally wanted to bully the killer with it. Which in turn means more tunneling because you'd have more games without obsessions). If you want to nerf DS, you have to incentivize the killer not to tunnel in some way. That might mean giving a buff and a debuff to survivors coming off the hook. Maybe give them the haste status effect by default, and a repair penalty for one minute. This would also reward the killer for completing their objective by slowing generators down a little more. It could be a 50% repair penalty, giving them more incentive to heal up instead of sitting on a generator. Before changing DS, I think something has to be done to put a natural anti-tunneling ability (something with a little give and take) in the game. I think that'd also cut down on the number of DS's we see in regular game play because people wouldn't feel the need to run it.
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They probably won't; these guys act like there's a gun against their head when it comes to discussing what the community wants to talk about; and restricts it only to like 20-30 Questions for a Livestream. Pre-picked Questions By Them.
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The obvious exception you guys ignore just because it doesn't fit your agenda:
The killer is in control of who uses ds and who does not. If you do not tunnel of hook and go do literally anything else DS doesn't come into play. It's your choice to trigger DS or not. The same thing can not be said about POP.
And before you come with the "I hooked another survivor and when I came back he still had DS" bs lie:
If the forums thought us one thing is that killers say chases are too long and at least one gen pops before they can catch someone. A gen takes 80 seconds, so a chase is longer than 80 seconds according to killer mains. For you to find another survivor, chase them, hit them 2 times, hook them, come back to the other survivor, chase him, down and pick up again in less than 60 seconds is impossible if chases are that long that you always lose one gen.
So how it is? Are your chases so long that gens need to be nerfed? Or aren't they? Because you can't have it both ways. You can't tell me you lose one gen per chase but at the same time you manage to chase and down 2 survivors in less than 60 seconds in order for DS to proc. Seems like a lame excuse for tunneling and not wanting to admit it.
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I was with you until you said DS has a hard skill check. Define hard skill check. It has a very generous skill check zone and the reason people usually miss it is because so much is riding on it. If the great skill check zone was the same size for gens, hex ruin would have never been nerfed.
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The key is the reason they mentioned
it wound up being a little too lenient and allowed Killers to find and kick a generator at their leisure, often after chasing and downing a different Survivor
You can say exactly the same about DS to make a valid argument to nerf it. One minute is simply a lot
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Inflating swf mmr is the worst solution possible. Good killers don't enjoy going against it anymore than the average player. Doesn't matter how well you play you can't negate comms.
If you started punishing killers for being good at the game by sticking 4 man swf groups into 90% of they're lobbies I guarantee you most "high level" killers would leave the game. Then it's back to business as usual with sweat groups bullying purple ranks and all you accomplished was running off part of the playerbase.
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