The Devs are better in balancing as you think
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I thought all of the killer changes were pretty good. Would make a lot more killers viable without making them OP. I'd love either this Micheal change or just outright deleting EW2 from the game.
The point about Keys/Moris ruining matches was also pretty sppot on in my opinion.
I disagree with his stance on undying and a few other small things.
What did you have problems with?
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It's pretty gutsy of you to say so ... & I applaud you!
I don't have the luxury of playing the PTB, so have relied on various videos and streams by various players. So far it looks like the changes are better for a more balanced play. I've not seen anyone struggle with the PGTW. The other perks have shown how they fit in. It's overall something people can adapt to, and there WILL be future perk changes.
Let the game evolve as is.
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Oh man if you think those randomised fences aren't strong you haven't seen how long a half decent survivor can hold W and run against anyone without a range/movement power. They're absurd in their current state. Throw in that 1 pallet between the tree and house from the right side and you have multiple minutes in total time across a whole games just holding W to catch up. They're broken for the same reason Midwich's hallways are broken. The killer has no way of "cutting off" the survivor like they would on Mcmillian for example.
The 15% makes practically no difference in that situation. It's only good when the killer has the option to make a smart play and cut the survivor off.
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Honestly i felt a few werent so bad. The heart was in the right place and he was looking at what seems like big problem on both sides (because a killer having to run through 4 bt ds borrowed and deadhard is pretty dumb) the michael buffs made sense since michael has to 99 his modes when other killers with forms can just press a button. OoO has been a thing since released. Ds is still a minute of invincibility. Freddy is free tunnel because of oblivious. Both scott otz tru3 and other youtubers have been saying maps need to be more balanced and not tip one way. Ect.
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Haddonfield, as well as Ormond, Temple, and the indoor maps (specifially Midwich) are all garbage fires in map design that all involve the beloved hold W all game-long gamplay.
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Oh I Thought you meant haddonfield was a good reason on why they good at balancing. MY b lol
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Moris - It's a temporary fix but won't last long term. It sounds more balanced than what we have now but everyone views this game from their own point of view. Some survivors will be thinking "well I wasn't hooked twice why should I be taken out of the game early?" survivors won't be happy because they may still not get a "full game" in some scenarios, and whoever the 4th survivor hooked is they will likely be immediately tunneled off hook for the mori just like now. It's a temporary fix that won't satisy survivors in the long term.
Tombstone piece - Likewise, if Myers can't ever get tier 3 again what does that matter to the survivor who got instantly taken out of the game with the tombstone piece? one survivor is going to have a crappy game.
Undying - The aura is negotiable but having any respawned totems disappear when undying is cleansed would kill the perk instantly. There's a 50/50 chance it will be the one that goes first anyway. In some games you get ruin taken out, then undying not long after....and that would be 2 of your perks gone in an instant. It just won't be a viable perk with his proposed change. I get everybody hates this undying/ruin combo right now but if you took ruin out of the equation Undying would disappear overnight. It's a niche perk that actually makes a totem build viable as you have a second chance if hit by bad RNG. Just change how Ruin interacts with it as Ruin is the only hex perk that's causing a problem.
Exhaustion add ons - these are fine. Ever pulled off an amazing long range shot as Huntress or threaded the needle with a hatchet just to be outplayed by someone pressing the E button? it's survivor entitlement that they have these second chance perks always available. Besides you can use most exhaustion perks early anyway only DH gets cucked and since that perk cucks M1 killers in chase extremely hard I think it's fair.
Spirit changes - Moving foilage is fine and i dont know why she doesnt since you can hear grass moving anyway but having her be partially visible would kill her overnight.
pinky finger - doesn't make clown much different to a hillbilly imo but it's whatever. Not too fussed about this one.
Trapper - mostly good changes but i'm not sure why he doesn't say DH shouldn't get survivors over traps. Sometimes you get an indoor map and it's harder to hide traps, so you use them to deny entrances like doorways etc but a survivor can just DH right over it and then you need to stop and pick it up to continue the chase. It's ridiculous how overpowered this perk is against Trapper.
Adrenaline - What a ghastly perk. The heal on hook has never been the issue, the issues is multiple swf all getting an instaheal and insane speed boost at the end of the game when there's only 20 seconds left on the clock. Anyone slugged they get up, anyone you're chasing they get healed and boost away to the other side of the map. It needs a much stronger nerf than he's proposing.
NOED - Again sounds ok in theory but you have to consider every scenario. There's now no counterplay to NOED, if the killer camps an endgame hook and has a few tokens then say goodbye to any chance of an endgame rescue. It would be incredibly powerful if survivors weren't notified of NOED too, 1 on hook as last gen pops, 3 go in for the rescue unaware and the killer just whacks all 3 down.
Executioner - I saw Otzs live polling his chat. This killer just had changes yet they want more. They want him to be unrecognizable.
At least he mentioned the lose/lose situation with The Hag though that nobody seems to bring up. They spam traps around the hook and stay within a close-medium range. You unhook the survivor..
- If you try to heal them the Hag comes back and tunnels (even we'll make it isn't fast enough)
- If the survivor tries to crouch walk away they're too slow, the Hag comes back and tunnels
- If the survivor runs they hit a trap and get tunneled.
All you can do against campy hags is purposefully set off a trap to try and get a BT save. It's one of those lose/lose situations the devs aren't fond of.
It's just my opinion but Otz for a number of reasons lately has been coming across like he just wants popularity and says what people want to hear.
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Adrenaline I agree. Fine solo as it rewards good gameplay but just like DS broken in SWF.
Tombstone piece afaik micheal can get 2 potential kills. It's considered OP by most as tombstone gives you a major speed debuff for the kills. Piece doesn't. I kinda agree though. At the very least there IS a tell. Hand open just jump in a closet so I'm 50/50.
I personally believe moris should be outright stripped from offerings and be Devour only.
I imagine the NOED situation would stay as a potential hex. I agree it would be broken otherwise.
I agree with the Spirit changes. I mained her for a while but don't play her anymore as even against "good" survivors/swf she was just too easy to play. I actively dislike playing against her moreso than Legion/DS or Pyramid. I think shes very poorly thought out and adding small blinks to her phase would massively increase her skill ceiling which is something a lot of killer claim to want. 'Mindgames' would actually be mindgames.
Hag I agree wholeheartedly, the only reason we don't see this complaint more is that she's underplayed as most find her boring.
Trapper I've been playing a lot recently and his traps have so many counters already its absurd. Ad on the fact that Dead Hard is already insanely strong for a reusable perk. I've literally had to drop chases as a Dead Hard over a trap has locked me in a long loop and I've had no choice but to place my current trap and pick up the already place one. Devs have long forgotten about their mascot. Sad.
Again, undying. The aura reading could go and it'd easily still be top tier. Said aura reading makes TOTH pointless anyway. The changes he and Scott have brought up on steam are silly and would neuter the perk. It's risk reward. The risk is that undying goes first. The reward is Ruin/other hex perk stays up. We need more Hexes that actually reward you like Devour and Ruin and less like Lullaby or Third Seal or that absolutely trash Slinger one that no one even remembers.
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What did scott say about undying?
I've given my thoughts many times. It's a good healthy perk for the game as it more totems a little bit more than just a meme. Hex perks were never viable but at least this perk gives them a chance.
Every other totem either requires tokens to gain strength (devour, lullaby, third seal), loses strength as totems are cleansed (thrill of the hunt), or they don't do anything until they are cleansed and then they have an effect for a limited time (haunted ground, retribution).
Ruin is the only totem that always has a strong effect from the very start until the very end. It doesn't require tokens yet it doesn't need to be cleansed to activate. You don't need to nerf undying you just need to rework Ruin so that it works like any other hex perk.
Its like everyone is throwing undying under the bus to save Ruin.
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They're both under the opinion that Ruin being able to spawn 4 times is unfair. But it doesn't, really. Sure it CAN. But how low are the chances of Ruin being cleansed 4 times and Undying 0? Better yet when has a game ever played out where a survivor hasn't cleansed at least 1 or 2 dull totems early game? I always spawn on at least 1. 2 days ago I spawning the shack with a Hex.
Also LMAO at them nerfing Lullaby.
I say this as someone who plays survivor solo, on very rare occasions with 1 friend but we play no comms. And I have no problem finding all totems with small game usually under 2 minutes without being a major letdown to my team in regards to gens. Other solo players and SWF have no excuse. Its complaining about killers finally get a GOOD new meta when survivors have had the same meta for 2 and a half years.
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How can someone think that is a thana buff lmaoooo.
Executioner changes did nothing
Trail of torment is a nerf becouse a hiding survivor can make it last 2 secons and there is still a yellow gen aura and 60 s cooldown.
Pop nerf will only hurt slow killers(no or vary little mobility)
Only good change of balance is Mindbreaker.
Removed 50% requerment
increased the duration of its effect
So simple and yet the perk moved 3-4 tiers from dumpster.
Slippery meat "buff" is so bad lol.
Remove one rng add a new one.
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Yeah but nobody cares if devour, lullaby, or any other hex perk respawns 3 times because it's going to be niche.
It's like they're determined to keep Ruin. I'd rather have Ruin changed and keep undying. If you nerf undying then we're back to the days where your devour is gone within 30 seconds.
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Nerfing ruin? Now where have I heard that before?
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You don't have to nerf Ruin, just change it. Everything that's being proposed for Undying is a hard nerf. Go check out Otz awful recommendation which would kill the perk.
Ruin is the odd totem out. It doesn't operate like any other Hex. All the rest either gain strength with tokens, lose strength with tokens, or need to be cleansed before they activate.
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Ruin is the odd totem out. It doesn't operate like any other Hex. All the rest either gain strength with tokens, lose strength with tokens, or need to be cleansed before they activate.
Third Seal and NOED say hi.
Moving on, just because Ruin doesn't work like some of the other hex perks doesn't mean it needs to be changed. Perks are allowed to operate differently, even if they share a common mechanic. Furthermore, Ruin is also the only perk whose effects you can be blissfully unaware of the entire trial. It literally won't do anything if you never let go of a generator.
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Third seal does require tokens. It doesn't do anything until you get tokens i.e. hit a survivor, when it's cleansed you lose those tokens. Hence why it's not overpowered or unfair with Undying.
NOED is a weird one. Not many people will say NOED is a fair perk. But hey it doesn't activate until the end of the trial at least. You can cleanse the totems early and not feel the effects of it, unlike Ruin where you'll be feeling the effects until all totems are gone or you find the right order. In fact it's very likely that Undying would be gone long before NOED ever comes onto the scene, unlike Ruin.
Yes just never let go of gens, why hadn't anyone thought of that. Genius strategy I'm sure that will pay off for most survivors.
Ruin is the problem in the Undying/Ruin combo. That's what we're debating here. Everyone else is saying nerf Undying to fix this, I'm saying change Ruin and keep Undying.
That's if the combo gets changed but at this point I would say it's almost guaranteed. If how Ruin works is causing the problems then yes it does need to be changed to operate like other hex perks, or something new even.
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In my trials, if I can't find Ruin after checking 2-3 totem spots, I just stay on gens. It works most of the time, taking into account trials where Ruin is eventually found by someone else.
There is no problem with the Ruin/Undying combo, it's just survivors wanting to avoid having to cleanse totems, as usual.
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You really think it won't get changed?
In my opinion at this point it's inevitable. So it's just picking which hex perk gets changed. I'd just rather keep Undying as it is so maybe I can have fun with Devour or Lullaby once in a while and not feel screwed if the survivors spawn on the totem and it's cleansed in the first 30 seconds as I would get another chance with it.
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I'm hoping the devs don't cater to survivors who refuse to cleanse totems but also want their effects to be negligible.
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I have to say the first week it was really good but now it’s a bit overrated. Those totems tend to go earlier than they did before and survivors somehow find Undying first in 90% of situations.
But everyone and their mom is running it so I still think its gonna get changed. Only one side is allowed to run the same perks over and over again for years straight.
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Thana nerf was a buff? Ok.
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Its funny how his video lists some changes but they have direct contradiction to each other. for example clown in the video says he need buffs but in the same video, he also says his add-on need nerf and at 16 meters, just try hit a bottle 16 meters directly. Survivor meta perks need changes, I.E but then lists a meta perk for survivor named borrow time and lists freddy as a problem to ignoring borrow time.
I'd say from video I only really agree with Mori being nuclear option, Keys being a nuclear option and purple tombstone.
maps are problem, but their deeper issue is related to how bloodlust works in this game and how ultra-safe both counter bloodlust and get countered by bloodlust, ironically if you were to rebalance all the pallets into fair pallets (one side being medium size and other side being short) and remove both bloodlust & all ultra-safe pallets than you'd fix maps but the issue is that some maps have to follow some sort of licensed architecture that needs to be followed and they use ultra-safe pallets to balance the map+old design tiles are naturally unfavorable towards killer purely because of the fixed distances that survivor gets from their pallet drops at holding W from various tilesets, House of pain, shack, jungle gyms, long-wall pallet, X loop, etc.. Long story short, maps will never be balanced and in some regards, they're not intended to be balanced. they intended to be random.
The other comment i have to make regarding the video is that most killers are intended to be bad without add-on's because they need to balance the game at all ranks, from rank 20 to 1 and they do this by making killer at base-kit weak because they know that new players can't utilize add-on system therefore new players will face weaker killers but in order to compensate this, they add add-on's to make up for killers lack of base strength. so in this sense, add-on allow you to have killers with multiple levels of power from weak to strong. If you look at old killers, you have trapper, starts with 1 trap, wraith poor movement speed, bad stealth, billy has very slow chainsaw, Huntress base hatchets, Myers slow stalking. I am not going to go into every killer, but take trapper for example, if you use his medium tier add-on he gets more traps and either faster setting or darker traps, honing stone to remove rng from freeing yourself from a trap and they make trapper more average, than you look at his iri add-on that now punish you for disabling his traps and now you start to see more of an unfairness-gap where trapper who is normally a push-over starts to feel less of a push-over and more of a real challenge and they used to do that with all the old killers but now their design philosophy has changed where new iri-add-on look like brown-joke add-ons and the base-kit of killers maybe slightly worse in some instances, slightly better in others. Moral of the story is that old killer design was superior to new killer design.
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Lol... Do you not understand the real purpose for Thana? It's to get the survivors healing. So if healing is debuffed, they're less likely to heal, and rather just work through it.
Think about it... A Nurses Calling, Stridor, and Thanatophobia were all released with the Nurse... And Thana was simply to encourage healing so Nurses would be more viable in the build.
So, if you're playing anything other than Legion, Thana is a slowdown via constant healing rather than actual slowdown speed.
And if you're expecting having 4 injured survivors saving you, what are you thinking? That'd be encouraging subpart play. The number one way to apply pressure is to have a constant cycle of players hooked and downed...
Why should you be rewarded for only being able to injure them, and then lose them? You should be rewarded for solid play, which is constantly downing and hooking survivors. If you expect perks to win the game for you with no real skill backing you up, DbD is NOT the game for you.
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Haddonfield is the biggest mistake in the game map-wise. Ormond would be MUCH better if they could fix the scratchmarks. I enjoy Ormond, other than that. (Before you start with survivor-biased, please know I play 1 game as survivor for every 7/8 games as killer, with 2k hours playtime)
But let's remember that with the exception of Ormond, Haddonfield, and Mother's Dwelling, the maps are designed to be best used with the killer they were released with.
But when it comes to map size... If they make all maps small enough for low speed killers to do very well, then killers who have high mobility will become even more unbalanced in killer favor.
And let's also remember that it seems that since infinites were removed, all Macmillan maps are killer-sided, instead of just Sheltered Woods.
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The game is not for me because i wouldnt call the thana change a buff? You are the one who dont understand the game i think.
You arent forced to play a game a certein way. You can play however YOU want so if for ME the thana change isnt a buff, just means i use it a other way but that doesnt mean the game is not for me.
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Of course high mobility killers shake that up. For example nurse would absolutely crap on any team that's on any map with no corn. It would be too easy, same for the rest of the mobility killers. But that only proved that we would need to bring the lower tiers up to the higher tiers and buff solo, something that is only started recently. I personally never considered any map but the one with the mine shaft on Macmillan killer sided, then again I play a killer who is literally moving 5 percent faster than the survivors at the start of the game
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they survivor sided maps you play killer?
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I don't think the devs are as bad at balancing as people would think. When they explain the reasons behind some changes it makes a lot of sense. The Ruin change in particular was excellent.
The problem comes when they actively ignore the community after changing something for the worse (Huntress Lullaby) or don't engage with the community on what they think will improve the balance.
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Ok... So buffs and nerfs are objective not subjective. I.E. The ruin change was a nerf, as it changed the entire way the perk worked in every essence, even in how it was designed to be used. After the change we were forced to apply more pressure to gens, just for the perk to work. Before, it was intended to PASSIVELY do it's job, now it only works with an active playstyles.
Thanatophobia is a buff, because it did nothing but strengthen it's INTENDED USE. It was never intended to be a passive slowdown skill, and that was obvious to everybody at the start. It didn't become a passive perk until Legion was introduced, and you could keep survivors injured rather easily.
So yes, while you're being subjective and whiny, I WILL say it's a buff, and if you need perks to act as a crutch to you, you're a lower skill killer.
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They're all smaller maps, and at LEAST 3 gens spawn very close together on all three versions. And shelter woods has extremely good visibility, as well as being small.
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You are not wrong but picked such a poor example, the Ruin change was understandable but the reasons they said on that Dev Update was just awfully presented.
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Thana was not a buff, i already explained why i think its not
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I am a lower skill killer because i use crutches because i said for me the Thana change was a nerf? Are you okey?
The ruin change was btw a buff for me.
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Really? They said that:
- Skill checks were too random. Meaning you either got loads of skill checks or none at all.
- High ranks hit skill checks easily while low ranks struggled.
- Can't remember the last one.
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the devs probably never thought that they're game would even get even close to as many people playing today.
Probably why their game is all blueprints. Personally, I wouldn't mind waiting a couple months just so this gaming company can have good staff, map testers, coders, and be fun
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The dev are so good at balance that i swich to survivor when they nerf ruin and with the recent nerf to thana and pgtw i dont regret my choice at all. I still play killer from time to time but i play mostly 1 game for every 5 survivor game i play
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If they are good at balance how come that 90% of perks in this game are useless garbage and only exist for us to waste precious bp in?
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No they aren't. They don't play this game at a very high level and they rely mostly on spreadsheets to balance the game and they largely ignore the people that spend more time playing this game than they do developing it. This leads to changes that are statistically sound, but feel like crap to experience.
The changes to perks you just mentioned has minimal effect on the meta. No one is going to change their perks based off of these changes. Instead of focusing on glaring problems in this game and perks with problems, they chose to spend time and money on changes that have zero effect on the balance of the game. If this game wasn't a giant mess of bugs and imbalances, these perk changes would be fine. The weeks and weeks it takes to roll out these changes is also interesting, considering these changes could be done in the span of a few hours by a single person, so I don't know how they spent the other 500-700 hours they had.
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1% more repair debuff for a missing 4% healing debuff. Yeah definitly a buff.
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Thana wasn't a buff.
Pyramid Head "nerf" wasn't really one, I see no difference there at all. He also didn't need a buff in Trails since he is already imo one of the strongest killers in the game.
Agree with other perks buffs, they're better than nothing.
Pop was fine, (again, imo)
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