Ruin+Undying(+Tinkerer) is the killer small PP build.
Let me preface this by saying that this is just my opinion and everyone is free to use whatever they want. But just because a combo is part of the game doesn't mean it's healthy for it. Especially since you do not need these to win even at red ranks. Whoever says otherwise has no idea how to play killer.
Why would anybody use a build that relies on making the game miserable for the other side in order to work? Isn't it more rewarding to win by actually outplaying survivors at chases and good map awareness rather than being carried by ruin? I don't know about you guys but using these 3 perks got old really fast for me...it's just not fun to crush survivors to the ground every single match.
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Killer small pp build has counterplay to it.
Survivor small pp build does not. (DS,DH,BT,UB )
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"Why would anybody use a build that relies on making the game miserable for the other side in order to work?"
Second Chance Survivor Perks and SWF as a whole would like to have a word with you, friend
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Me who just had a game where I lost both totems before I even hit my first Survivor:
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"Killer small pp build has counterplay to it.
Survivor small pp build does not. (DS,DH,BT,UB )"
^^ This. They aren't equivalent at all.
Also, what reasoning do you have for saying Undying+Ruin is "unhealthy". I would argue the literal exact opposite. It's extremely well balanced and designed.
It is very high risk, does literally nothing unless the killer plays well to pressure the map and has lots of counter play. Like seriously if that's "unhealthy" what would you possibly consider healthy?
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I've never liked the term that Scott gave the DS + Unbreakable combo, despite how broken it is. And using it to describe a killer build that can be shut down with RNG just makes me dislike it more.
Post edited by SirCracken on11 -
if the perk combination can be countered then its not small pp
also 1/16 survivor perk slots or 1 item (map) can counter 2/4 of the killers perks using that build
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Remove one of your second chance perks and equip small game: you just remove half of the killer perks 2 minutes into the game
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You gotta love how whenever anybody is talking about Undying+ Ruin they always conjure up the worst possible scenario.
I have had more games where people have destroyed Undying first than ruin staying active for more than two totems.
Oh Behold if a killer complains about dealing with more than one small people's from a survivor it's always a matter of bringing up the worst case scenario and that doesn't happen every match
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It's a killer build that has counterplay and only works if the killer is good at applying pressure.
It's far from being a small pp build.
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So basically since this combo is so prevalent I'm forced to always equip Small Game or DH. So in addition to being very oppressive you have no choice but to bring a totem perk every game if you're solo Q plus DS since everyone tunnels like crazy lately...that's some great balancing right there.
You're telling me that every time you run this build survivors complete most if not all gens and two or more of them escape? Come on man. Unless you're swf most solo Q games are pulling teeth agains this combo + high mobility killer and everyone here knows that but doesn't like to admit it's extremely easy to win with these perks. Even if they're cleansed relatively early you will have enough momentum to carry a win if you have one braincell.
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Or why do we say things like small pp build. Let's stop being mean to people from running a specific build and just let people run what they want.
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Sorry we wanted a decent way to slow the game down besides Pop Goes the Weasel or stacking perks like CI and Surge, also Ruin Undying is nowhere near as bad as the old ruin was. The current ruin can be countered by just not getting off the gen.
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You still need to know what you're doing in order to make DS+Unbreakable work offensively. Just because you're running these two doesn't give you a guaranteed escape. Killer small pp build may have a counterplay (aka look for totems) but by the time all of them have been cleansed you should have gotten enough hooks to tilt the odds heavily in your favor. Most likely one person will be dead at which point the game becomes trading hooks.
Just because there is a counterplay doesn't make this combo less oppressive especially for solo players.
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On a mobility killer? Oh, yeah. No argument here. Sure, full party SWF can destroy it, but full party SWF can destroy anything if they try hard enough so I don't really base things around it.
Like, sure, it has counterplay, but it's so freaking strong on mobility killers that it negates the counterplay. I don't know if I love it or hate it just for that. All I know is that I refuse to run it on Spirit and I get super bored with Tinkerer and replaced it with Retribution for the sweet, sweet snowballs.
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Killers are almost required to bring Pop or Corrupt, what's your point? This just makes it so that both sides are limited to 3 perk slots, ignoring SWF
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Exactly my point. There are 4 perk slots why should either side be limited to 3 in order to have a shot because of some bs game mechanics. That's literally the opposite of good balance and it's not good for the game. That unless this game is only about crushing the other side which I hope is not the case...
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old ruin was crap compared to current ruin and only worked on new players because most of the time you could hit great skill checks and it was rng if the skill checks even went off, new ruin lets you skip hitting a gen that’s almost done and lets you just initiate a chase or search around the gen area as well as pairing amazingly with surveillance.
that being said as a solo player Idc about the undying build because it gets hard countered by Distortion+Detectives hunch or a map.
and with THAT being said, you guys saying just bring a map are completely ignoring a huge strongpoint of undying which is that it tells the killer you’re on that totem unless you bring distortion. it’s a good perk made great by having a weaker version of TOTH, it doesn’t matter if you know where the totem is if the killer knows when you get on the totem, especially if it’s a high mobility killer.
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Well Scott started using the term to describe DS+UB as a sort of joke, made a YouTube video about it and a lot of his YouTube viewers are killer mains who take everything way too seriously so they adopted it as an actual insult and now here we are...I actually find it really funny that people are seriously using the term "small pp" in arguments on a forum about strong mechanics in a video game.
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Is this thread a rant about killers or just confirmation that 80% of survivor builds are not healthy for the game?
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I can outplay survivors in every chase in a match, and still lose the game because of how quick gens go if i don't use any slowdown perks.
So.. no. Outplaying survivors alone doesn't make you win the game. And losing the game despite winning against every survivors in chase is very frustrating
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"Not winning makes the game miserable"
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Weird that i loose my matches even with really good chases. It's just like the game favors one side the better the players get, but that's not possible right? Right?
I don't like this combo too, but i understand why it exists.
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Ruin does jack squat if the killer can't pressure the gens, meaning that it is useless on most killers (only good on freddy, hillbilly, spirit, nurse and blight), everyone else is better off with corrupt intervention and pop instead of ruin + undying. The tinkerer perk forces a killer to choose between giving up a chase when they have the chance to down someone, and then chase the new targets off the gen... they play much much harder than the M1 heroes ever will. The only time tinkerer is pretty awesome is if you are within an earshot of it going off and can chase survivors off the gen. Otherwise, it is pretty much a dead perk.
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Except that they do.
AND all are situational, unlike the killer combo which is guaranteed to work.
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Can we stop calling Perk Builds "small pp-builds"? They are Perks and in the game to be used. If you are upset about it (whether it is Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer or Unbreakable/DS) you should stop thinking that the other side is not allowed to use good Perk Builds.
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Noooo stop running meta perks in my game where meta perks will heavily favor your games if used correctly, you got a small dick unless you run monstrous shrine or no mither >:(
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Ruin is by still a band-aid perk that really should be built into the game mechanics. It only helps to mitigate a cancerous issue the game has struggled with for a very long time. I'm lucky if I get a down before first gen. I'm absolutely blessed in the next two don't pop immediately after. Gen rushing is bad and blah blah blah. We all know it won't change so deal with our band aid perks. Though tbh I haven't used ruin in ages. Pgtw is my preferred slowdown.
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I'm so sick of seeing this #########.
What's with this stupid mindset going around lately that if the game isn't easy and you keep losing then there's something wrong with the game/other players and it should change just so you can start winning?
How about this: games aren't supposed to be easy to win. You're actually SUPPOSED to encounter difficult situations. If you keep getting your ######### beaten in certain situations (like when you go up against certain perks/killers/maps) then you might be the one ######### up (especially if a majority of players are handling it just fine). Yes it may be difficult but it is not impossible. You're being lazy.
Then there's the whole "I shouldn't have to use certain perks and go around looking for totems. It's boring/it's a waste of a perk slot"
It's called countering and strategy. I doubt you feel like the perk is a waste when it's saving your ass. The point is to come prepared even if there's a chance that you may not need it. It's risky to play without those perks and it's your responsibility to determine if you want to take that risk. If you make a bad call, that's on you. It is literally the solution to your problem. There is no such thing as a guaranteed win for either side.
And of course there are gonna be times where you can do everything right and still fail.... Tough break yo. If you lose then you lose. Take that L and keep your ######### moving.
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Dang "small pp" sounds like we've all reverted back to elementary days. It sounds like a kids phrase at best.
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Survivor: Well, just apply pressure if you lose.
Killer: Applies pressure
Survivor: Small PP user, not allowed REEE, *cries in entitlement*
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Ah, the small pp build that requires killers to pressure multiple gens, win chases quickly while not being baited away from critical gens, and (especially for low mobility killers) be in the correct area of the map to take advantage of Tinkerer.
Definitely way easier than when I hold M1 while slugged and/or hit Spacebar to use DS.
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I love one side complaining about specific perks of the other, while not having issues with any perks they have.
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Ah, demeaning opinions because a player uses perks you don't like... 🙄
If you can't get a down before one gen pops, you need to adjust your strategy... I run Corrupt and easily get at least 1 hook before a gen is done, maybe 2 if I'm really lucky.
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Calling builds small pp and complaining about Hex perks is small pp
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it is.
but ppl will not want to hear it and make up excuses for it, as usual.
in the end, if one side has the right to complain about a strong perk combo (such as DS + Unbreakable), the other side has the right to criticize their strong builds (such as Ruin + Undying + Tinkerer) aswell.
both carry people through games they shouldnt have won, imo both are equally boring and strong to go up against.
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ruin + undying is the nail to the survivors coffin if they already struggel in a match. gens are usually flying when the survivors get rid of it.
on some maps its hard to find all totems and than it feels a bit too strong when your going against a good killer. but its possible to win against it.
maybe the aura reading on dull totems is a bit too much. since it helps to find survivors very early and gives on some jungle gyms a free wallhack if a totem spawns there.
a nice sideeffect is, that those killer cant really bring noed and usually play the endgame with only two perks. i barely saw noed since the midchapter patch.
anyways if you play in a 3 or 4man swf, you have definitly a slot for detectives hunch.
i dont care much about BT DS UB... the counterplay is pressuring other survivors like the unhooker or eat the ds early if possible.
in most matches i only notice this perks in the tally screen. most killers arent playing tactical enough. and tactic is the reason why good players like otzdarva often win even with bad killers and perks.
it could use a nerf like expiring faster when the survivor is healing or repairing.
ds is very unfair at the endgame thats true. DS UB or DS UB SG is pretty much a free escape ticket at the end and thats bs
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The counter would be to accept that there are 4 Survivors in the Trial. But I know, only the guy who just got unhooked seems to be in the Trial at this point, at least from what I read on the Forums.
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i mean, you can just go after the unhooker instead. that kinda renders the build useless.
or you slug them and camp the slug for 60 seconds.
or you can eat the DS right at the start and then do tunnel them for the rest of the game.
certain killers can also hide their presence, rendering BT useless.
for Ruin Undying Tinkerer all you can realistically do is hope that maybe your team is doing totems, while hoping that the killer isnt randomly looking in your direction, while hoping its not a high map pressure killer, while also hoping that RNG blesses you and you destroy Undying first.
there is literally no reliable counterplay to Ruin Undying Tinkerer for solo survivors.
it all boils down to "lets hope that scenario X is / is not the case or we lose". say what you want, thats definitely, all potential power aside, not a healthy addition to the game.
both are busted af.
acting like the killer version is okay but the survivor one isnt is quite hypocritical.
eigther complain about both or dont complain at all. if one side is allowed to run their strongest stuff that carries them, so is the other side.
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Quite a weak post. You know, you can chase a whole different Survivor while the other person is on the Hook. And not even be near the guy who is unhooked so you dont have to deal with BT or DS or Unbreakable at this point.
But I guess its pointless, when I see your response.
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i agree that anti tunnel perks can be abused, even when the killers doesnt want to tunnel/camp but i bet, that a good part of the killers who complains in the forums is that type who turnes away from an injured survivor in the open and tries to tunnel the unhooked guy through all perks. if the survivors are competent this results often into a 0-1k at the end...
there are moments were camping is good for example when the survivors decide to finish 1-2 gens first before the go for the unhook. then its better to go back and camp the guy into the 2. stage. or eating the ds if you get an easy down at 3-5 gens.
but not mindlessly... at least if you go against competent survivor. against potato survivors even the insidious basement camp works^^
and worry not, these types are not any better as survivors. i have seen some players in both roles and the tend to bring only the best stuff (or toxic behavior) as survivor too.
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The same argument can be made with the meta survivor perks. I assume DS every match if I see an obsession so I slug if I down someone after a hook pull. I attempt to go after the unhooker because I always assume BT. I always wait for DH to go for a hit because I assume everyone has it unless something shows otherwise. Its not that big a game changer unless the whole teams using the meta loadout. They also have to be decent loopers and 2 or more. Also in swf that rush gens anytime your busy doing anything other than pushing survivors off gens. Then you've got a recipe for a begrudgingly frustrating match. Tbh at my mmr it's pretty much every match I see a combination of all these things. I think it truly balances it out though having powerful metas on both sides. You can win and lose with these loadouts they are not even close to a guaranteed win. Both sides metas have some amount of counter play but you have to actually be good to capitalize on the builds. I just truly believe it's about as balanced as you can get an asymmetrical 1v4 styled game. I still think it has issues regardless overall it's mostly balanced.
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Once again a thread that can be summarized as
'I, as survivor demand an iWin button'
And... I don't get it. Survivors have decent time to tell what they are going to do in a match when they are in soloQ, and assigning roles should be even easier in a swf.
Check if ruin is active, go look for totem.
But, eh, I forgot. If you have to go around doing totems, you'd have to be stealthy, that means you can't engage the killer in a chase and show off your h4xx0r l00ping skillz.
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as long as I'm having a fun and enjoyable match I don't give to shits about winning.
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Yeah. This is so helpful. ######### you. Actually ######### you for making this post. You can bring a single perk to counter two perks if it bothers you that much. It's like you don't want to change the way you play the game to counter something you don't like. I used to run noed Every game. But now that I see that even if I run noed I have to be good enough in a chase to actually down somebody before they get through the exit gate.i also suppose that you think that old ruin, if you played against it, needed to be changed? It did, but my point still stands. If you can't change a single perk, like your iron will for detectives hunch, which is actually a pretty good perk if you actually use it. But no, you decide that you can't change one of you're three perks for another perk to get rid of two perks. Sounds pretty good. And even if they don't have undying and ruin, detectives hunch will still help you. Finding chests, totems for noed, and other generators. Again, ######### you for making this post.
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I just took an L tonight that was one of my best recent memories playing- I was playing as doctor and we ran each other to a sweat- great round
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Holy ######### so many ppl complaining about ruin undying tinkerer. You do understand that most of the time especially at red ranks survivers can get rid of ruin and undying in first few min of the game? And that leaves killer with 2 perks. But hey as long as I can complain because the game is more challenging for me idc. How bout we talk about surv small pp build, ds, unbreakable, soulguard. Just cleanse 4head.
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It's called big pssee build
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Please stop pretending you're not trying to rile everyone up. If everyone could use whatever they want then what's up with the title? You're trying to get some of that "salty killer main" tears with an occasional circle jerk or two with other posters. You could have easily made your point without all of that.
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At the end of the day i don't think most people 'care' if the other party has fun otherwise the community wouldn't be so split in opinion about certain things.
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they should buff undying by making it work with Lullaby,Third seal and Devour hope. All of the totem perks are balanced by having long chases and giving the killer little/few hooks which naturally makes you progress generators. The fact that you can cleanse totems and remove killer perks is like second chance at failure to play well in the first place. Undying+Ruin is classic learn to play issue. Survivors are too used to being bad at the chase and escaping. I guess by survivor standards, if the perk does no't do anything to help you to win, than it is healthy perk because you do not even notice it. Sounds like what 95% of the killer perks are at currently anyway.
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