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Thankyou for removing bloodlust, i cant wait!
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Out of those killers:
Trapper doesnt need bloodlust, trapper is a killer who needs at least 1 more base trap or have all the traps available to you at the start and repurpose the sack addons. The rest of his design is around forcing survivors into area's that you have trapped before.
Pig currently might need Bloodlust 1(Still making 2 and 3 useless)needs deepwounds applied on healthy survivors when she hits them with a dash. Pig is already slowing down matches long enough with her mask to compensate for the slightly increased chase.
Oni doesnt need bloodlust. He is supposed to have a hard early game because he snowballs hard. Give an Oni 1 hit and enough blood and you need to start rushing gens. If you cant get that hit early game, then you need to practice as a killer. No space needed for bloodlust.
Legion doesnt need bloodlust. He can already get enough advantage out of having practically constantly injured survivors.
Plague doesnt need bloodlust, heck, I'd even say Plague barely needs perks at all to win games as she essentially has a free Corrupt Intervention unless you want to be injured, and if you dont want to be injured anymore, you'll give her the ability of old huntress.
Demogorgon kinda needs it, but just like Pig, he only needs Bloodlust 1. Reworking some of his addons alone fixes that.
I am a Myers main, the only time I need Bloodlust is either using addons that slow my movement down or being T1 Myers, but I could easily play without Bloodlust in those games because Play With Your Food alone compensates your movementspeed in those builds.
Ghostface, same like Myers, except you dont really need it. You cant even get bloodlust 1 while the instadown is active, and if you cant hit the survivor before the timer runs out, you need to practice on your mindgames.
So yeah, even those killers do not rely on bloodlust to work, let alone that those killers can get 4k's without bloodlust.
Unless you fully exclude addons and perks on killers and expect killers to work without perks and addons just fine, but then you're simply delusional if that is the height of your bar.
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Killer winrate is literally at its peak. How is it survivor favored? Because you still can lose games as killer? Bloodlust actually has been on the priority list for a long time, it's a big contributor to why mori's are broken in the first place: It allows killers who are not skilled enough to take down players who obviously are more skilled than that killer. If killers who are not experienced enough but use a mori cant even reach their target, then the mori issue gets dropped, right?
I mean, what use will disabling ebony mori do, when bloodlust was a big contributor to that mori in the first place? I mean, those killers most likely had Bloodlust on t3 before they could even down the survivor for a mori.
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Using the kill rate as a measure of balance is already very misguided as the devs, the community, and anyone who actually knows the game well will tell you. Otherwise Nurse is the weakest killer in the game and Pig is OP. Clearly not the case.
Bloodlust and mori's are 2 separate issues, I don't understand how you're connecting the two. Mori's are unbalanced on their own and bloodlust is to help against the poor map design since its not fixed yet. I also don't know why the mori issue, or any issue for that matter, would get dropped just because a bad player uses it.
Also if they're going to tier 3 Bloodlust you they wasted a lot of time. I haven't seen a tier 3 bloodlust in a long time. But as a mechanic bloodlust still has its place as the map design is still not fixed.
Mori's aren't an issue because of bad players they're an issue because they cut the killer objective by over half. Disabling Mori's would at least address a big community issue. I rarely see people complain about bloodlust and when they do its usually entitled survivors who don't know the game anywhere near where they think they do.
There are plenty of more important issues they could tackle or test.
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Maps like Hawkins, Lerys, Midwhich etc. have literally almost zero safe pallets (god pallets don't count here) and breakable walls will be in every map soonish but killer camperinos still crying for bloodlust over 9000 lmao.
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I wonder how many people against bloodlust even realize it takes 15 seconds of chase to even start, and resets when breaking a pallet? There's kinda a reason nobody runs Beast of Prey.
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Not using the killrate as a measure of balance, im using the killrate to indicate overperformance. Which is undoubtedly true, because otherwise Pig wouldnt be able to get that many kills.
Mori's still have an issue without Bloodlust, however, it removes the possibility for weaker players to get off a mori as easy as they currently can. Let alone that it definitely helps now that the Undying+Ruin combo exists, which allows killers to essentially chase a single player untill they reach Bloodlust 3 before survivors cleansed the right or final totem.
"bloodlust is to help against the poor map design" This is false. Bloodlust was implemented to help in chases, not on map design. Bloodlust isnt going to help you move from point A to point B faster, it just helps you chase a survivor faster. A survivor that you can cut off and probably hit before Bloodlust even comes into existance. If you loop around the same pallet untill Bloodlust appears, then you're simply a worse mindgamer than that survivor. Point being, good killers dont rely on Bloodlust, at best they use it to their advantage. Bad killers rely on bloodlust. If it were the same for Mori's, they would have been dropped long ago. But weak killers dont need a mori to rely on, they can rely on bloodlust.
All you need is chasing the strongest survivor with Bloodlust 3 to win the game, its easy to go after the weakest player afterwards.
And I've been playing this game before Bloodlust was even implemented. It currently has it's place for 3 killers, all other killers dont need Bloodlust to win against survivors that are equally skilled other than to give an advantage to a killer that is skilled worse. Considering people care about skill a lot, its a bit unfair to give killers a practically free advantage to that. I mean, there is a reason they didnt add in 120% movement speed killers. Besides, like I said, Bloodlust has been on the list longer than even Mori has. And the devs truly want to keep in Ebony Mori somehow, while Bloodlust was a 4 year old quick patching job to an issue that needed a different solution and was never meant to be a permanent mechanic.
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Overperformance is a balance issue. So you're saying Nurse is super weak and pig is too strong? That's not the case at all. Why does it matter if a weaker player can use it? That's not an issue. Ruin undying will do nothing if you chase 1 person since ruin does nothing if you dont get people off gens. They wont be looking for totems if ruin's not doing anything. Again, separate issue. No its not false, map design also includes loops not getting from point A to B, so also chases. I didn't say map size, I said design. Chases need help because the map design is bad. Good or bad killers can't do anything about a loop that's too safe, or a string of them because they got unlucky, thats the point of bloodlust, to help against the bad map design or getting unlucky.
You can't win using that strategy, you will waste so much time that the other survivors will just do the gens and leave and you will lose unless the survivors are potatoes. Bloodlust 3 doesn't matter that much, its 1 and 2 that come into play normally. The only killers getting tier 3 are bad ones who have probably already lost the match at that point. You want to remove tier 3 only I'm all for it since it doesn't really matter.
It doesn't matter how long you've been playing, your point still stands as incorrect. You still don't know what you're talking about as far as I can see. Time playing doesn't factor in. If people care about skill so much there's bigger issues to tackle like DS, hatch, keys, mori's, iri heads, loop design, pallet normalization, and other things that give free advantage. With the loop design still being less than ideal to put it lightly, there's no reason to take out the thing that was put in to help against it, especially when they're adding in god walls to the maps.
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Yeah I get why they are doing it but It will really increase the tedium of the game without bloodlust.
Typically things aren't going well if you get to that stage in a chase but given how mindgames are becoming less effective and holding W is often a valid chase tactic I don't think we should write off bloodlust just yet. Think of the ring a ring a rosie simulator around the unmindgamable junk pile without bloodlust ugh.
We'll have to see how the test turns out.
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Couldn't care less about bloodlust. If a killer downs me at bloodlust 3, it means i stalled him enough for the rest of the team.
Want to do a better experiment? Disable mori's.
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My brain can't handle this stupidity.
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And also disable keys and the hatch
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This post is hillarious.
why are you complaining so much honestly? most maps are full with deadends or unsafe pallets and the rest of maps will get reworked anyways.
Bloodlust got implemented to end the god loops and most god loops are gone.
pls someone tell me which reworked map has a god loop.. am i missing something?
there will be nothing left after all maps gets reworked, but you still want this huge speed boost just to bloodlust the unsafesest pallet? some people honestly.
not a single one of you complain about the huge hitboxes, about huntress hatchet hitbox, how killer sided some maps are with 90% unsafe pallets and dead ends.
about how many times a killer gets dedicated hits (undeserved hits) about how the devs changed the rank reset to make it easier for killers so they can get their 4Ks
but oh nooo devs deactivated bloodlust how dare they could do that.
dont get me wrong but if you need bloodlust to down someone then you just suck simple.
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no you didnt. if you chase a survivor for too long you did a bad job simple.
are you one of these people who chase a survivor for 4 minutes and complain why gen speed is going so fast?
oh my lord. and the game gets balanced around potatoes this is sad nothing else
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If only BHVR had some sort of Player Test Build to test things on instead of subjecting the live game to "Test features". Dang, I guess they don't have such a thing....🤔
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Oni doesn’t need bloodlust, yes it helps but once he gets his power with or without bloodlust he can turn a game quick.
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Hatch no, i believe it is a good mechanic.
Keys, absolutely! No moris, no keys: better game experience (imo).
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Why are people so mad about a test? Do you want them to just change it without any player input because that's what they'd so otherwise.
And don't say put it on a ptb, you know that's a silly answer
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yeye we all know you're just a killer main, who is triggered by the changes. don't try to take the position of the survivor to make them look strong. survivors are still weaker than killers. killers have above 2k average kills. not everyone is a pro with survivor, we need to look at the whole statistic and not on a few oustanding players.
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They pulled them and then put them RIGHT THE CRAP BACK with "breakable" walls..... so if the killer doesn't take the minutes it would to find and destroy all god loop walls they are there. now they want to see if it's needed? it's still needed.... but I am not against the test, i'm sure the test will show it. but the fact you have completely forgotten that they were to remove them, not make them optional. did you not remember when they said they'd remove them and then do revamps? the idea was to remove the loops and not have to deal with them again and now we have to deal with them again.
Here is your rub, can't test how it is on consoles without doing this as this works differently on the different platforms and how it affects cross play. PLUS the PTB doesn't get enough testors to get the data on something this detailed. You could use your deductive mind to actually think beyond your pc and the game.
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This is one way to piss of killers and make them leave your game. Bloodlust helps new comers more so than the more experienced, it was never an issue before and the "many" people who are referred to in this post, is just one who is a Fog Whisperer and wants things handed to them. You mentioned before in a developer live stream that Bloodlust was not going to be touched, as usual going back on your word. Great reputation to have.
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Haha I actually only have a PS4 but thanks your brilliant deduction.
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Lets see here hmm....
Not all the maps have been rework yet
More then half of killer perks are either garbage or somewhat okay
Maps that haven't been reworked yet still have certain tiles and loops that are unfair to killer, even sometimes on the reworked maps their is still bugs need to be fixed
Lets not forget about how experienced survivors play
Survivors have gotten more better perks then what killers have been getting
And last but not least, survivor can easily just as killer can as well, corrupt the data by making it look like BL is needed or BL is not needed
Yes BHVR, a very well thinking well placed timing to take off BL, yes, to gather some valuable data.
Also im not for BL, BL is very outdated, im just pointing out the obvious and the obvious flaws to this so called "test"
OH and we still have killers that have a walk speed of 110% or lower :D
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Constantly relying on bloodlust for no reason is just stupid, yes.
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Couldn't have said it better. Double standards and cringe is always huge in this fourm so don't expect any realistic and rational arguments from those killer mainerinos.
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I was being sarcastic but most that bring up the ptb on console are complaining they aren't able to get them :) and this test actually gets you guys to test for them! well not really a test but data gathering.
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The stats provided are useful in terms of overall balance when you include context. There are 2 major factors that determine how often the average player can win with a killer. The first is the raw power of the killer and the second is how easy they are to play.
Nurse is very high in raw power, but extremely difficult to play. Therefore she has the lowest kill rate in the game. This also makes playing vs the nurse fair, because only a very good player can use her to her potential. Despite being the most powerful killer in the game she is also the most fair.
Now let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum. We have Freddy, he's extremely easy to play and his synergy with already meta perks is so well known. Players who play vs Freddy are playing vs him and all of his passive abilities. While Freddy is not as powerful as Nurse, Freddy is unfair because he doesn't require skill to play.
If you understand how to derive and understand raw data when considering context and factors then the raw data is incredibly useful. But you just keep trucking along about how we should ignore facts and how your opinions that lack any merit at all holds more weight.
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Yes very dumb. I should ignore them but my brain can't just ignore these lol
It's like a fly to the lights.
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I don't think we should ignore the facts at all but using stats to just say "well killers are op look at the kill rates, they're high" is just misguided and not the case. In this case its "Killer winrate is literally at its peak. How is it survivor favored?", the point in question I was refuting was using the raw data without context at all. If you're going to talk about my reply to someone else at least look at what they said, for context since ironically it seems like you ignored it.
In fact I did my own small inferences of the data when they released it that went over pretty positively. No where did I say ignore the facts and no where did I say my opinion was more important. We do take in context and raw data can be useful, and in fact I used pretty much that exact Nurse example. There's also much more to it then just those 2 factors such as map control, stall, mobility ect. Raw power to get downs is part of it yes, and so it ease of use, but there's also more at play. Please don't blindly assume and put things in peoples mouth in the future thanks. You cant use solely raw data for balance inference, that was one of my points. You need context and player experience/knowledge.
Quote and source:
"But no you can't take these stats as the end all be all for balance, especially without considering why they are what they are. Like Nurse being harder to play so her kill rate is low from people learning her.
Another example is everyone lower than Legion has some sort of aim or learning curve higher than most killers, but everyone over him is pretty simple. So he's the weakest simple killer and those with lower kill rates than him are probably because of having to learn that particular killer or aim. So while of you go off this he's fine, in reality he's still pretty weak if the survivors are decent. Exception being Wraith, he's just weak without good add-ons."
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1701663#Comment_1701663
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You literally answered your question.remember when the devs had the extended test for servers on PC when they were unoptimized? People hate being forced into being guinea pigs for any length of time especially when they have a service dedicated to testing nit to mention the devs are notoroius for breaking things with each update due to spaghetti code.
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Not angry about a test so much, but really to focus so much time and effort on Bloodlust when there are far more serious issues affecting the game? Really, Bloodlust is the top priority??
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Lol ikr. It's not like the Huntress bug of the camera snapping to the hooked survivor is important,
or the fact Pyramid Heads alt attack is screwed up so badly that every time you use it it is stuck,
or the fact I can blink out of the map in Haddonfield
or the fact some of the rift challenges are broken and don't register as a win.
Or for instance the fact the clown is at a very ######### place right now and could use this attention,
Orr the fact Victor has been a disaster since day one in terms of balance.
THEN there's also the fact that players have requested quite badly a offline training mode for the game similar to Dbd mobile
THEN there's the fps problems on Ormond and the new maps making everything twice as dark as they used to be,
THEN there's the issue of survivors getting free iron will because of a sound bug.
NOPE! Bloodlust OP plz nerf. I can do this all day boyos. Get your priorities straight Devs.
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You aren't conducting an experiment- you are not a developer of Dead by Daylight. You are clueless about anything other than what you're told to say. Hello? Do you see my point now?
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what data are they even going to look at to determine how necessary BL is?
i swear to god if they use kill rates, just laughable
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People will only be upset if they are not good with killer. This is a really good move in my opinion. They should leave it out!
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It is worth pointing out, my first experiences with DBD - when I got it on a sale on Steam this summer, coincidently right when the MMR system came out... was being a rank 20 with 0 hours played being thrown up against a Rank 1, a rank 4 Killer and then a rank 3 killer.
I switched to Killer, and faced 3 rank 1-4s and one purple. Don't even think I got a single injure... afterwards even the Survivors felt so bad they apologized for it.
It seems like your MMR system went out of its way to find the worst possible matches it could for me.
I don't know whether you have an issue with stats or an issue interpreting what those stats mean, but forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical when it comes to defenses of your methodology.
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as killers have said time and time again nothing should be given to survivors for free, MoM was nerfed for this very reason it was a free hit survivors got against killers thru normal game play. (it rewarded bad game play) so its only obvious that killers also should not receive something for free that should also include bloodlust speed boost. you do nothing to earn it so get rid of it and the worst part about it, its part of the base kit unlike mom as it was an actual perk.
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Actually, the overperformance was meant to point out that they are using data that has nothing to do with killer balance. Pig obviously gets most kills in grey-green ranks, she is overperforming in low ranks. My language was a bit vague but I had to keep it short at the time.
As a matter of fact, using it isnt the problem, getting a massively strong infinite free boost for being bad without any negative consequences is. Bloodlust is allowing people who make mistakes to catch up massively. I know that that is important in the case of long hallways like midwich, but there are ways around that. Otherwise, you can just cut off the survivor anyway. If you dont cut off a survivor, you can still catch a survivor a lot quicker using just bloodlust. Even though you're making mistakes, you're being given a gift. THAT is the issue. I mean, imagine if it was the other way around. For everytime the survivor gets you to swing, they'd get a 1% movementspeed buff up to 3%. Meaning the survivor gets rewarded for baiting the killer into mistakes. Add in Hope, and you run 110%. Obviously you see the issue with that, and that reward is 5x smaller and given while survivors make risky plays. Bloodlust, however, gives you 5% for making mistakes, and the longer you make mistakes, the bigger the bonus gets. Ofcourse you dont want players to get discouraged, but man, you have no clue how much killers actually get all the tools to not having a bad match. You would need massive ######### who bully constantly to make your game feel terrible. All that a killer needs is 1 early dead survivor to make the game feel awful for 4 people at the same time. And fun fact? Killers get ALL the tools to get an early 1k if they really wanted it. I love playing killer, but its really hard to deny the fact that the whole killer kit as a whole gets babied by the devs. I tend to have less fun as a survivor than as a killer, especially in the current undying/ruin era.
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Accidentally pressed post, so its in 2 parts, excuse me for that, anyway:
Well, there are only 2 safe loops per map at most, and guess what? killers can do 3 things about it: breaking a door, baiting the pallet early or leaving that area. If they are gonna heal up, they're wasting time, if they drop a pallet, its no longer a safe loop. If there is a door, you break the safe loop instantly while minimizing the gained distance the survivor would get otherwise. If they arent injured and none of the above is possible within a short timeframe, just leave. If they all go there, fine, you've removed pressure and they will run to a dedicated spot, more chances of them making mistakes in that area and making the safe area unsafe with minimal of your time wasted.
Yes, but that is simply false. Structures are balanced. There are no infinites. Its pure mindgames. The problem with mapdesign for killers was the distance they had to walk from point A to point B. Which is why pretty much all the big maps have been shrunk or reworked(sometimes both). Chases do not need help. I played the entire weekend without any bloodlust and my prediction was right: only 3 killers need help with bloodlust. All my other chases were averagely the same time. As for a string of safe loops, no, they pretty much dont exist. worst case scenario, you get 2 windows of 2 relatively strong structures together, in which case, you get the ######### out before you lose too much time.
Well, not really, but survivors tend to want to play together because more survivors tends to be more fun to play around with as you have more leeway to screw around a little. Exploring certain area's a bit better, investigating the way the map is build and doing some pre-planning in case they are getting chased. If one of their friends is under constant pressure, they would want to try and help relief pressure for some time. Bloodlust allows you to fully ignore them. Assuming survivors will go for a team-win over a more fun match is a tournament mindset. And I've never seen bloodlust 2 being used in my usual games, ever. Not even while playing t1 myers. The only time I saw it happen was when I was chasing someone on purpose as long as possible to improve my ability to cut corners(which actually forced me to make massive mistakes and breaking a lot of pallets to reset as often as I could). 1 barely comes into play at all, and when it does, its at the end of a chase(especially with weaker killers). If it doesnt, you can still improve with the killer.
Again, my point still stands. I even checked to see how it was in practice. Only 3 killers rely on bloodlust. As for skill. DS, Hatch, keys, loops and pallet placements are fine. They dont give a free advantage, they give an oppertunity and it takes skill to turn an oppertunity into an advantage. Altho keys are currently more powerful than they should currently be in terms of time that a hatch is open, purple should allow 2 at most, pink should allow 3 at most. Both cases needing perfect timing to get out. Same for DS, it's potential advantage is a bit too powerful for the oppertunity it offers, the oppertunity doesnt need change, but the advantage needs limitation. Mori's are not an oppertunity, they are literally a free advantage, just like bloolust in fact. You dont even need to sacrifice a perk slot for mori's. The only relatively balanced mori is Cypress right now, and that one is actually underpowered(it should be able to mori during the EGC in general).
And yeah, loops are by design not in favor of the killer. But that doesnt mean a killer cannot turn loops into their favor. The god walls are actually a response by making some of the bigger maps smaller. Freddy's maps have been shrunk(its darker, so you might not notice it, but its much easier to go from one side to the other). Godwalls generate when the wall or fence is placed close to an outer wall. I agree it should have a breakable door/wall or 2 along the way, but even in that case, most killers have a way to deal damage over a gap. A trapper can set up a trap very early and chase the survivor into the trap, billy can just run, wraith can close the gap faster by using his power, nurse, well, is nurse, huntress can just throw hatchets, freddy can place traps(unless you're pallet freddy, but in that case you can get hits easier in other ways anyway and should just leave), demogorgon can use his shred to reduce distance, legion can use his ability to do so, especially if the survivor is fully healed, deathslinger just shoots, oni should have his power by then anyway, Blight can catch on, spirit doesnt matter, bubba is pretty much same as billy, hag just traps quickly, pyramid can do damage through walls, clown is essentially perfect for the wall even piggy can do a good mindgame and use her dash to reduce the initial distance as much as possible. That only leaves Plague, Doctor, Ghostface, and Myers that are unable to do anything about it. And even out of those 2, Ghostface and Myers(let alone free stalk time, you can just stalk and leave and use that stalk for a better oppertunity) have enough instadown time to keep the chase to a minimal. You're overhyping the need for bloodlust. There are some really strong places, agreed, but only less than a handful of killers are affected, by less than a handful of W simulator places. So what makes more sense? Removing bloodlust and giving those killers a way to deal with W simulators or keeping bloodlust? Do you think the blighted serum for killers this halloween was just a fun thought? Do you really not think that they used it to see if the mechanic could be used instead of bloodlust? Why else would the addon not have been useable after the event? If the addon was fully disabled, they could give that ability to killers during W simulators. It's what people have been using it for during the event, to decrease distance rather than shortening a loop and it actually requires skill to use it properly(although, it was a bit too strong obviously and killers need their own way, but I think it definitely proved the devs that bloodlust was no longer needed).
Bloodlust is simply bad for the game. It needs to make way for better solutions.
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1) Structures are not balanced, multiple infinites or extremely safe structures/loops that basically lose you the game if you chase on them have been found with BL removed, even on the reworked maps, I ran some of them myself playing survivor yesterday. Or as you put it "in practice". Even killer shack has an infinite variant right now 9the one with the hook on the corner). There are no mind gaming these structures, and safe loops, that's why they are called safe. You can't mind game everything. Making the argument "if they run to x area just leave the chase" isn't a good one because then the survivors will just always run there. Nothing in the game should be so safe the solution is just "well just let them win chase for free and leave or chase them and lose".
2) The whole community as a majority agrees killer is the harder role by far as well as the weaker one and that the balance is more survivor favored than killer. Killers do not have "all the tools" at all. If anything I would say survivors do with their wealth of second chance perks and general map design being in their favor. I'd like to know how you're going to get an "easy" first kill on any decent survivor through potentially 2 BT's, DS, Unbreakable, 3 separate exhaustion uses, or whatever other second chance perks they might be bringing. Not to mention the potentially safe structures and loops, potential multiple safe or god pallets and potential god wall depending on the map and RNG. DS is not fine and especially not keys. Keys are a problem, so are moris, so is DS and second chance stacking, so is the general map balance. Sorry to say these point you brought up reek of survivor bias or just a misinformed opinion.
3) BL 2 probably isn't needed and BL 3 is definitely not needed. However BL 1 has a place in the game still because as expressed in point 1, structures and loops are still not where they need to be yet. They are better than before, but they are still not where they should be. If they want to remove BL completely they either need to fix their map design or give us a better solution. Right now they haven't announced anything and we only really know they're considering removing BL since they are doing this test.
4) Relying on bloodlust will not win you games as killer unless you are playing against absolute potatoes or new players. it waste too much time to got to BL 2 and 3 to be using it as a main strategy. You will lose the game unless survivors are literally not doing gens. It takes 30 seconds for BL 2 and 45 for BL 3, in DBD that's a very long time to get only 1 hit on 1 survivor.
Might have missed some of your main points but you sent a lot of text and it wasn't very concise.
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