Is a Tombstone Piece technically a Mori?
So I came across a Myers this evening who used NoED and a tombstone piece and says that a tombstone piece is not a mori. He says that a tombstone piece is NOT a mori but an add on. A tombstone piece is an add on and the mori is an offering, but their performance is the same. So is a tombstone piece a mori or not?
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Technically not a mori, does the same but I think the limit on pieces is 3 kills, I'm not really 100% sure, that is like 30% sure.
For a mori you have to hook someone, with the piece you can kill them without even seeing them all match.
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Yeah, it's pretty much a repeatable Ivory Mori that requires stalking instead of hooking. Not quite an Ebony Mori, but stronger than a basic old Ivory, which is in itself ridiculously overpowered.
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It's really not given it slows your power to a crawl. It's stronger than no addons or the average addon, but it's far from even huntress's Iri heads.
You can outright shut that down unlike mori's and iri heads.
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It's an add-on that allows you to insta-kill another Survivor (which is nicknamed a "mori" because of the Memento Mori offerings). I wouldn't consider it on the level of Ivory/Ebony Mori, as Tombstone Piece requires you to put in additional work in order to activate the Mori condition, whereas Ivory/Ebony Mori just give you free outs to kill Survivors without any additional work required. Whether the work needed to get the Tombstone's insta-kill is balanced is a different discussion.
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It is and it isn't. Just like PH, Myers can kill without the permission of the Entity. He has to bring his Add-On(s) to do it, either the Tombstone Piece or Judith's Tombstone. I take it all the time, to be honest, but rarely use it. I bring it along as insurance against the odd Bully Squad or Red Rank Survivor Squad all using the 5th Perk (Comms). I like the option of reducing their information advantage to a 3v1 quickly if I find I can't overcome the advantage. So for the most part, it is something I add but rarely use, sort of a wasted add-on slot.
The Tombstone Piece only works in Tier-3 and makes getting to Tier-3 the first time take additional time/evil. It cannot be combined with the Fragrant Tuft of Hair; well you can, but using the Tombstone Piece will instantly drop you out of Tier-3 when you use it. This means you would have to get back up to Tier-3 all over again, and you better hope there is enough evil left to do it. :)
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It is easier and quicker to use than an Ivory Mori and leaves you, at worst, as a 16m TR M1 killer at 3-4 gens, assuming you have literally no other add-ons or perks and refuse to ever use your power again.
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I don't think I'd agree with that. With an Ivory Mori, it basically just takes a single chase to set someone up to be knocked out of the game, assuming no Borrowed Time. Down, hook, and as soon as they are unhooked, tunnel them down (which you can easily do if you hang by the hook and if there's no Borrowed Time) and knock out of the game. With Myers, you need to stalk your way up to Tier 3, which is going to be more difficult than it would normally be as a result of the add-on increasing the amount of stalk you need. Against less competent players, you could make such a case, but against good players (which I think is what is more important), it could realistically be a challenge to make your way to Tier 3 in a timely manner.
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A mori (Cypress Mori, Ivory Mori, Ebony Mori) is an offering which allows the killer to kill survivors by their own hands.
The Tombstone add-on is an add-on that allows Michael to kill survivors by his own hands.
Rancor and Hex: Devour Hope are perks which can allow the killer to kill survivors by their own hands.
Whenever there's an achievement or challenge or something requiring a killer to kill survivors by their own hands, any of the above methods count towards it.
In general, when discussing DbD, most people refer to the animation where a killer kills someone with their own hands as the killer's mori because it's easiest. Even Pyramidhead's little kill he can do is often referred to as a mini-mori.
So, the Tombstone piece is technically an add-on with different requirements than a mori offering but the kill itself uses the same animation.
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Its sort of like devour in that you can kill someone who has never been hooked.
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As an item: No. Mori's are a sacrifice that allows you to mori people. The tombstone piece is an addon
As a mechanic: Yes. A tombstone kill is just a standing mori and even gives points to any dailies that require you to kill with myers.
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My favorite thing about the Tombstone Piece is the fact that you don't have to down a Survivor to use it. Once it is keyed up, i.e. you are in Tier-3 you can grab them while they are still standing and running and gut them like fish. Why do I like this so much? It is great for Tea-Baggers at exits. This is the other reason I often add it, and pretty much the only time I actually find myself using it these days, is if I lose the match and there are a bunch of yahoos hanging at the exit Tea-Bagging me knowing that when I hit them they will fall outside of my range to pick them up and the crawl away. I can't tell you how priceless it is to run up and instead of getting hit the animation starts and they get the Mori for being bad sports.
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Against competent players, they'll see a hidden killer offering and play safe, invalidating any additional speed you might have in the stalk-vs-chase department.
And also, there is such a thing as stalk speed add-ons.
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Nah, it's not a mori. It has the same effect though.
It's also crucially important to Michael Myers as a character. He is evil incarnate and does what he wants. He does not play the trials by your rules. Every time you run into the shape, you have to keep that in the back of your mind. This could be the match that he just deletes you straight out of the game with no warning.
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I mean, how safe can you play against a Mori offering, really? There's really nothing you can do about it. Against a stalking offering, you can still outplay Myers the way you normally would, only it would be more effective because of the increased stalk requirement. Sure, you can offset that with the increased stalk speed add-ons, but I don't think against competent players, that would end up being more effective in terms of momentum than booting out a single survivor with an Ivory mori.
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Well, I think MadLordJack is talking about playing it safe as a team (but I could be wrong). Consider this, if you are part of a well-oiled machine, you might be willing to take your time on the Hook just to make the safe rescue, and/or lure the Killer away from your team while they work some Generators. If you have faith in your teammates, you are willing to trade Hooks or get on one. If there is a Mori in play, i.e. a Secret Offering, you don't even want a single hook if you can avoid it. You aren't going to be thrilled to be the looping bait. You won't commit to Generators and will move off the second Spine Chill lights up. You can play safe against a Mori, which amounts to SERIOUS caution.
With Myers, you have no way of knowing. I kind of think that is part of the fun. You never know WHICH Myers has come to the party. Is it Spooky Myers who can see you through walls, but is slow? Is it Maniac Myers who can tier up to Insta-Down you and/or just delete you right then and there without so much as a single Hook?
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Do you not know what playing safe is? It's when you don't take risks at loops and drop pallets relatively quickly, after maybe a loop or two. The killer cannot hit you and cannot play the pallet unless it's a Badham-style junk tile, and eating all the pallets on the map doesn't matter if their teammates are just doing gens and also play like that.
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Here's the problem: If the Killer has a mori, what incentive do they have to take any sort of bait? All they need to do is take out a single person with the Ivory mori, and the momentum shifts in their favor considerably. The Killer has no problem with taking the one-for-one trade because that's still going to slow things down for the other side, and you can only willingly do that so many times before you run out of people who haven't been hooked yet and have to face the inevitability of someone being knocked out early.
Also, I'm not exactly sure I can verify this, but I have heard that Myers has a tell with regards to whether he has one of the tombstone add-ons or not. I think if his free hand is open-handed while he is in Tier 3, he has an insta-kill primed. Also, if Myers is taking a noticeably long time to reach tier 3, you know that he has either a Tombstone add-on or Fragrant Tuft, both of which you wanna REALLY go out of your way to avoid letting him reach too quickly.
How is that any different from just how you play normally? What makes that a better strategy against a mori specifically? The Killer doesn't need to play any differently until they get their first hook.
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Myers has a tell when he is in Tier-3. His knife is changed to a high position like he is going to stab downward. They did this specifically to remind people that THIS Myers will Insta-Down you at a minimum. I think it was a good change.
Killers will always take bait, even when they know better. A good bait, is a good bait. But remember, Survivors are part of a 4-Person team. Nothing prevents Survivors from making shoulder rescues with flashlights, pallets, or even sabotaging hooks. They can get in the way and take protection hits to allow the downed person to struggle out and avoid that first hook. I've even had clever, crouching Survivors get in close with me where I couldn't see them to try and trick me into thinking I was getting the "can't hook bug" because they were blocking me and I didn't know they were there.
Once a person has been on the hook, the other Survivors should make SAFE rescues, and that person should stay at the periphery and work Generators as far from the Killer as possible. It is commonsense stuff. And if you see the Killer chasing someone you know has been hooked (and you haven't) why not get yourself into the chase and get the Killer to peel off? I've done this a LOT. When I do get to play with my friends, I'm the better looper of our group. That is kind of sad because I'm garbage. Be that as it may, I've run interference and gotten the Killer to go after me instead. I might get away, or I might get MY first hook, but the point is I prevented the Mori and my teammates are still in numbers to keep working those Generators. Hell, they might even get to milk my Hook time if we have a camper.
The very existence of Bully Squads (as much as I dislike them) proves that you can engage a Killer with coordination even on the offensive.
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Normally I play to have fun and outsmart the killer and get better and all that. Playing safe is a miserable experience for everyone involved, which is why I like to play killers that punish that (such as Blight).
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Yeah, I'm very aware of the knife pointing thing. I'm saying that I THINK (I will admit that I'm not 100% on this) he also has a tell in Tier 3 if he also has Tombstone Piece/Judith's Tombstone.
Killers will always take bait, even when they know better. A good bait, is a good bait.
Ehhhh, I don't really see it that way. If everyone is hawking around the Killer shack because someone is in a basement hook, and I see someone trying to conspicuously lead me away, I'm going to take a few steps away and then double back. What you're describing is just typical Survivor gameplay that can and should be played around in general. Even the crouch thing, if I notice that pressing the hook button somehow did nothing, the first thing I will do is look down to see if someone is trying to be cute.
Once a person has been on the hook, the other Survivors should make SAFE rescues, and that person should stay at the periphery and work Generators as far from the Killer as possible.
Again, this is kinda just general tips to play the game decently (again, barring Borrowed Time). The thing that the Ivory Mori does is shortcut by a lot the amount of work that the Killer needs to put in to knock someone out and gain momentum. You say "why not get the Killer to go after you and get them off the Survivor who has already been hooked?" I say "why bother changing targets when the one I am going after is going to net me an incredible amount of momentum because they are primed to be Mori'd?" Unless the one you are initially chasing is super good at being chased to the point where it becomes a liability to chase them too much (which ALSO is lessened in penalty if you have the Mori to make that whole chase effectively count for two chases AND two walks to hooks), you don't really have good reason to switch courses beyond "I don't want to tunnel people too hard because I'm just playing for funsies".
Sorry, when I said "different from how you play normally," I was referring to how it's different from how one should ideally play against a Killer, not how that difference from your own personal play patterns. I'm asking how playing super safe against a Mori player is any different from playing super safe against a non-Mori player. As a follow-up, how is that any different from playing super safe against Myers?
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I guess the point I'm trying to make is that competent players are not a good barometer against a killer that practically loses by default.
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Ehhhh, when we're talking about Tombstone Piece and how it stacks up to Ivory Mori specifically, I think it is.
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I wish I could tell you if that "tell" about the open hand is true. I know I'm never looking at Myers long enough to know. But as to the advice I'm giving being basic... yeah... BASICS win games.
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Here's the answer
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Sure, but this discussion isn't really about whether basics win the game (since it is naturally agreeable that good fundamentals are important to doing well). We're talking about playing vs. a Mori (Ivory mori specifically) vs. playing against a Tombstone add-on (specifically Tombstone piece).
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the action is considered a mori because its the same offering
moris: (yellow, green and red)offerings, 5 stacks of devour hope,rancor and myers tombstones
not moris: bleed out kills, rbt kills, PH instant torment kills
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And playing against the Mori (or the Tombstone Piece) requires basic fundamentals and no deviation from them. There is no magic bullet against the Mori. It is countered by simple, good play. That's it.
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There is different ways to kill survivors. You can Kill survivors with your hands or Sacrifice on hook. Both Memento Mori and Tombstone Add-on allow to Kill with hands. But calling Add-on a Mori is technically wrong.
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I'm saying that I'm talking about which is better between Tombstone Piece and Ivory Mori.
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Hrm. It depends on what you are taking it for. If you want to Mori EVERYONE, the Ebony Memento Mori is still the most reliable play. The Yellow & Green Mori are just useful for doing a Daily or Rifts. The Tombstone is NOT the best tool to try and Mori everyone. The amount of Stalk it takes (and time) make it far more likely you will give up a win trying for the Mori. This is what it is good for:
- It is excellent for killing Tea-Baggers either during the match or at the exit gates.
- It is excellent for dropping a 4v1 Red Rank SWF (w/5th Perk: Comms) down to a 3v1 to level the playing field.
- It is excellent for a surprise disruption, like taking out someone carrying a Key without warning.
- It is awesome for a fun surprise against Bully Squads.
- It is useful for intimidation, say charging up early, going into a group and just killing someone in front of them.
*I assure you that once someone sees that Mori happen on the run early, it puts the fear of the Boogeyman into them and they are way too cautious and attrition falls to you. You are correct in pointing out that Survivors do have more ways to counter a Tombstone Piece than they do a traditional Mori. They can try to avoid giving up much Stalk. They can work to make sure you don't get that close. The Mori aspect requires you to be point blank rather than just a normal attack. So safe looping works pretty well. However, you never know if the Tombstone Piece is in play until you do. You always know (or have a good idea) that a Mori is in play.
So when you are talking about which is better, I'd have to ask you what do you want to use them for? Killing Survivors by one's own hand is cool and all, but it isn't good for Emblem Advancement or BP. Unless you have a cool Rift or Daily, the act sets you back more than helps. Tactically, I'd say the Tombstone Piece is better because it brings options and surprise to change the course of a hard game against difficult opponents. The traditional Mori is niche.
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On the daily rituals it's considered a mori, so I suppose it does.
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I don't think you've used tombstone piece before. That add-on is absurdly strong. You only need to kill 1 survivor with it and you've won. Tombstone piece let's you easily kill 2, and can sometimes get you 3 if you play right. It also doesn't slow you down like the full Tombstone does. It's broken and should absolutely be toned down or removed like all the other dumb add-ons.
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