CMV: The first confirmed LGBT character should be either bisexual or trans
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I definitely don't agree. The B is definitely underrepresented, or more ignored as there's never really discussions about bi in general. But currently, especially on the internet and in the media, T is, if anything, overrepresented.
There's serious issues currently surrounding what amounts to child abuse and medical malpractice, such as is coming out in the Keira Bell case that's just been through British High Court. If you've had a look into Abigail Schrier's "Irreversible Damage" there's some seriously worrying trends in the last few years that are likely to cause severe damage to (mostly) young girls, and a lot of it is due to overwhelming support than any form of transition is inherently good and never to be questioned.
I don't want the survivor to be trans. Not because there aren't trans people who deserve support or representation, but because the over-glorification of being transgender, and the actions of extremist activists is actively causing harm to young girls at the moment, and that's not something I want to be supportive of.
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I understand the concern, but the actions of extremists should not be used to paint the entire group in a negative light. It's unreasonable to blame all heterosexuals for the actions of homophobes and it's equally unreasonable to blame all trans people for those abusers. By your logic, we'd just never have any characters in DbD.
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No, but adding a straight character to a game doesn't imply advocation for homophobia. The current issues surrounding transgender activism stem largely from teenage girls being told overwhelmingly that becoming trans is a good option, and it's followed up with overwhelming blind support from strangers on the internet, and the immediate short-term positives of taking testosterone.
Actively going out of the way to add a trans character and add another source of praise, especially in a game where it isn't relevant or necessary, is just one more push forward for a harmful movement.
Again, I want to stipulate this, I do not believe being trans or transitioning is bad, just that the overwhelming propaganda surrounding it is causing confusion and damage to young people who don't understand the implications of what they're getting themselves into, and I don't believe the game should be hitching itself to that wagon.
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You think adding a trans character to the game implies advocating for trans people, including the extremists. The exact same argument can be made for adding straight characters.
I've never heard of massive activism in that direction, just FYI. I've heard claims of it from less than reputable sources, usually those with a vested interest in making anything non-heteronormative look bad, but a sizable movement? No.
I mean, trans people are a tiny fraction of the world's population, so how exactly do you explain the claim that there are large groups of activists pressuring young girls into transitioning? How do you explain doctors just prescribing testosterone supplements when every trans person has to go through extensive psychological and psychiatric evaluation before determining if they are indeed trans?
Sorry, but the idea that trans people have organized a mass movement to get all teen girls to transition just seems like a conspiracy theory.
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I mean if you're going to openly admit to being completely ignorant to what's been going on this week let alone through this whole year, I don't feel the need to waste time trying to have a civil discussion with you. Do yourself a favour and actually research what's happening before you decide it's impossible.
Irreversible Damage, it's a really excellent read, and there's legitimate reason why it's being rated one of the best books of the year while remaining so controversial.
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Or you could provide sources for your claims, like in a normal discussion. I'm not about to do your research for you.
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I've referenced current court cases, highly researched books, and experts in the field. If you want a thousand word essay with harvard referencing, you might want to remember you're on a forum about a game.
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I expected links to studies, articles, etc., not just casually mentioning one court case as if it was representative of the usual experience for teen girls and a book that I'd have to pay for and read in full, which could very well take weeks.
Just for the record, you literally expected me to be familiar with a court case in a country I'm not even from and presented my "ignorance" as a failure on my part. Does that sound reasonable to you? Should I expect you to be familiar with current court cases in the Sudan or Azerbaijan?
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Its not too late whatsoever I say no for the concept.
the lore doesn't have anything to do with the game itself....there is no "in-Game" story to consider the lore to be that concerning.
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Its not too late whatsoever I say no for the concept.
It is. Other characters are already confirmed heterosexual. It's too bad nobody opposed it back then, maybe we could've avoided this whole mess.
the lore doesn't have anything to do with the game itself....there is no "in-Game" story to consider the lore to be that concerning.
So what's your problem? The lore is where it will be mentioned. You will literally never see it unless you go into the character's lore.
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Luckily this will be a self correcting problem as DBD is tightly tuned enough on the killer side that this is highly exploitable behavior which will result in a LOT of lost killer games in SWF.
Kinda love it actually. Loud and proud trans survivor goes full mama/papa bear and takes the heat head on to frustrate and loop the killer so they play mega-inefficiently. They took that ######### in the real world all their lives, one more nut with a knife is nothing.
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Let them. The devs didn't kowtow to racists, which is why the game has non-white characters. I don't see why they should kowtow to those people.
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> It is. Other characters are already confirmed heterosexual. It's too bad nobody opposed it back then, maybe we could've avoided this whole mess.
Who is really that offended by "Heterosexuality"?....I am not caring or concerned about a fictional characters sexuality/gender in a horror theme genre.
>So what's your problem? The lore is where it will be mentioned. You will literally never see it unless you go into the character's lore.
Um yes.....what is your problem that the lore makes you so upset?....and you proven the fact that no one really cares for the lore like that...so why make this a big deal over something in all honesty a trivial affair.
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Do I expect people to be even vaguely familiar with a court case that has been in global headlines for the past week surrounding the topic they're bringing up? Maybe I don't expect perfection, but I don't tend to go around starting highly controversial political discussions without at least glancing at what's going on recently. Here's a quick on-topic article related to the case; https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/06/keira-bell-lawyer-warns-on-internet-coverage-of-transgender-issues
Here's the best link I can give you surrounding the book, https://open.spotify.com/episode/4SIh4Pt39AtGQYzMJMNkv1 I certainly don't pay for spotify so that should be available to you, unfortunately the youtube versions have been removed. (Important to note that it's worth listening to the first minute before deciding there's 'transphobia' from the name, because the issues being discussed are far from it.) She's an amazing woman who has put her own career on the line simply out of concern for the safety of young girls.
And in short, yes, I would say it's ignorance to enter a conversation saying "I don't know the current issues, or the extreme influence activists are having on politics and the medical field, so I'm going to assume that you're wrong."
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Thank you.
Who is really that offended by "Heterosexuality"?....I am not caring or concerned about a fictional characters sexuality/gender in a horror theme genre.
I'm not saying people are offended by it, I'm saying they didn't care when it was heterosexuals who were added. Also, for someone who claims not to care or be concerned, you sure are pushing back against it a lot. When I don't care about something, I don't react to it.
Um yes.....what is your problem that the lore makes you so upset?....and you proven the fact that no one really cares for the lore like that...so why make this a big deal over something in all honesty a trivial affair.
The lore doesn't make me upset, but it clearly makes you upset since you're against having certain things written there. I also didn't "prove" anything, I just said that you don't care about the lore. There are players besides you, many of which enjoy the lore.
I'm not making a big deal out of anything, you are. I opened this thread to have a good faith discussion with the forumgoers about who they think the first LGBT character should be (if they should be L, G, etc.), but many comments here are just addressing the wholly unrelated (and resolved) issue of whether LGBT characters should be added to begin with.
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It is the consensus of the psychological field that de-transitioning is mostly an issue of the extreme hostility trans people face trying to transition, more than a 'regret' of transitioning itself. People don't de-transition because they realize that being trans was a phase, they almost universally do it in the face of extreme harassment and psychological pressure. De-transition rates are .3% meaning about 3 in 1,000 trans people get ANY level of detransitional treatment. From the perspective of being a mental health treatment, that is downright miraculous.
The act of transitioning even without gatekeeping hurdles is such a massive challenge that the amount of people doing it on a whim is 0%. Like ######### isn't getting your hair dyed.
Furthermore, even if people DID regret transitioning, which to be EXTREMELY clear it is not, it is pretty much objective fact that dysphoria is a super serious thing that is actively life threatening due to its extreme mental health effects, and refusing to allow transition because of a de-transition epidemic that, again, really obviously isn't happening, is akin to withholding a life saving treatment from a group because less than a percentage of them will have a negative reaction to it. There are many treatments we consider absolutely essential to obtain for similar reasons as transition (such as anti-depressants) that have a higher failure rate than transitioning.
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Do I expect people to be even vaguely familiar with a court case that has been in global headlines for the past week surrounding the topic they're bringing up?
I looked up "Keira Bell" and couldn't find any news source covering it that wasn't based in the UK - BBC, Daily Mail, The Guardian, The Economist, and so on. The best I could find was Twitter, which I don't visit for obvious reasons. It didn't make any headlines in my country either, despite being in Europe, so excuse me for not looking up recent court cases in all 200+ countries around the world before I post a single comment.
And in short, yes, I would say it's ignorance to enter a conversation saying "I don't know the current issues, or the extreme influence activists are having on politics and the medical field, so I'm going to assume that you're wrong."
Whatever floats your boat.
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You're perfectly welcome to cover your eyes and ears to what's actually happening, that's not my problem and I have better things to do with my time than argue with someone who is arguing for an agenda, not the truth.
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Alright, I think I get it now.
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I am not covering my eyes and ears. There is a lot of scientific consensus on the beneficial effects of transition, the low rate of de-transition, and the reasons people do de-transition.
In fact, the American Society of Plastic surgeons did a study and found that 91% of plastic surgeons believe that de-transition should require a mental health evaluation, which is MORE than who believe that transitioning should require one, because de-transitioning is, again, usually associated with some other mental health crisis. They also found that while the highest individually stated reason for de-transition was a change in identity, it was not even close to the majority. So of those .3% of people who de-transition, only 20% of them de-transition because they changed gender identity again. For perspective, that is 6 out of 10,000 people who transition. Again, that is a freakishly high success rate for something that is theraputic, assuming we could eliminate the social pressure to de-transition and make it less physically painful, which combined easily eclipse a change in gender identity as stated reasons to peruse de-transition treatments.
The actual science is just... absolutely not on your side here, and the only person covering their eyes and ears here trying to push an agenda is you.
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Just to support your point: I'm also in Europe, I found one newspaper article (from a catholic magazine) and two block posts in my native language, that's it.
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I'm not saying people are offended by it, I'm saying they didn't care when it was heterosexuals who were added.
Majority of the people don't
A.) Care for the Lore
B.) Don't care for the sexuality (Its not that important to the game itself)
C.) Never noticed it because it doesn't affect them.
Also, for someone who claims not to care or be concerned, you sure are pushing back against it a lot. When I don't care about something, I don't react to it.
But yet you claimed "Change my mind" but yet you get so defensive when someone isn't absolutely agreeing with your comments/agenda for the game and yes people can see this when you reply if you don't care for the "Negativity" then ignore them and their comments and don't reply with those who don't agree with it.
This is why i said earlier opinions are opinions for a reason it's subjective and not objective for a reason you clearly speaking from a emotional standpoint and not an actual neutral standpoint.
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I asked my BF, who watches more news than I do, he hasn't heard anything either. I also asked a friend of mine from a different country altogether, nothing.
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Majority of the people don't
A.) Care for the Lore
B.) Don't care for the sexuality (Its not that important to the game itself)
C.) Never noticed it because it doesn't affect them.
Then they (you) won't care if it's added to the lore.
But yet you claimed "Change my mind" but yet you get so defensive when someone isn't absolutely agreeing with your comments/agenda for the game and yes people can see this when you reply if you don't care for the "Negativity" then ignore them and their comments and don't reply with those who don't agree with it.
Most people weren't even on topic. They were addressing the (settled) matter of whether or not LGBT characters should/would be added to the game. As for the ones who were on topic, I like to actually have a conversation with someone, find out their reasons for thinking in a certain way, before I change my mind. I don't blindly accept anything and everything someone else tells me.
This is why i said earlier opinions are opinions for a reason it's subjective and not objective for a reason you clearly speaking from a emotional standpoint and not an actual neutral standpoint.
Nobody is neutral and I literally admitted I might be biased right in the OP. It's the beginning of the second sentence.
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Yeah, definitely a global headline story though.
I guess some people aren't worth the time.
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Then they (you) won't care if it's added to the lore.
Then you shouldn't be offended by the Hetero lore....you keep mentioning "No one said anything about the Heteros" like...why does that have to be a "Argument"?.....why does a character's sexuality have to be so "prioritised" for you??
Most people weren't even on topic. They were addressing the (settled) matter of whether or not LGBT characters should/would be added to the game. As for the ones who were on topic, I like to actually have a conversation with someone, find out their reasons for thinking in a certain way, before I change my mind. I don't blindly accept anything and everything someone else tells me.
Yet here you are being so "Defensive" when i haven't commented at you?.....It's clearly shown that not everyone wanna see a character specifically seen for and as a Pandering it gives a bad light already when companies do that for Pride Month "Lets only change our stuff for this month to show we can be "Acceptive" but then change it the next month and wait another year!"
Even if most people weren't the ones giving actual reasonings were getting ignored.
Nobody is neutral and I literally admitted I might be biased right in the OP. It's the beginning of the second sentence.
SO WHAT IS THE POINT if you aren't going to LISTEN that is the point of your own post isn't it? and you are OPENLY admitting to Closing your ears to criticism and being biased thats not good in a debating method.
You can't go into a discussion with bias thats a clouding of judgement, I been into the hobby of debating and the moment you show Bias its a huge huge losing point because you aren't seeing the middle but one side.
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Then you shouldn't be offended by the Hetero lore....you keep mentioning "No one said anything about the Heteros" like...why does that have to be a "Argument"?.....why does a character's sexuality have to be so "prioritised" for you??
I'm not offended by heterosexual lore. Did you seriously not understand that I was pointing out that you (people opposing LGBT lore) were treating the possibility of LGBT lore differently from heterosexual lore?
Yet here you are being so "Defensive" when i haven't commented at you?.....
If simply correcting your statements is being "defense" for you, then yes, I'm being very defensive.
It's clearly shown that not everyone wanna see a character specifically seen for and as a Pandering it gives a bad light already when companies do that for Pride Month "Lets only change our stuff for this month to show we can be "Acceptive" but then change it the next month and wait another year!"
Not everyone wants black characters either. Should we toss those? How about female characters? Perks? The game itself? Or can we just let the devs do what they want, one of those things being the inclusion of LGBT lore?
Even if most people weren't the ones giving actual reasonings were getting ignored.
I don't even understand what this means.
SO WHAT IS THE POINT if you aren't going to LISTEN that is the point of your own post isn't it? and you are OPENLY admitting to Closing your ears to criticism and being biased thats not good in a debating method.
I said I may be biased by asking for a B or T character as opposed to L or G. You are, once again, putting words in my mouth.
I won't be replying to you any more because it's become clear to me you're not engaging in good faith. You keep misrepresenting what I'm saying and claiming I'm saying things I didn't say. Have a nice day.
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I'm not offended by heterosexual lore. Did you seriously not understand that I was pointing out that you (people opposing LGBT lore) were treating the possibility of LGBT lore differently from heterosexual lore?
Bruh what?....what are you talking about???
You legit kept saying in this thread no one said this or that about the hetero characters when no one was asking/demanding about this because people DIDN'T know or care for it and I am oppose to "Pandering" and "Forcing" something that isn't beneficial for the actual gameplay.
A LGBT character in the game to only be "represented" as that "One LGBT" Character is as I said putting it in a bad light becauses pressuring/forcing.
Like no one forced the lore on you and you didn't have to read them or acknowledge them hence why Player interpretation is the best method for your arguments because you can make that reliability within your own head-canon.
If simply correcting your statements is being "defense" for you, then yes, I'm being very defensive.
"Correcting" I don't see any correction all I see is someone being close-minded and very defensive because people aren't Agreeing with you 24/7 on all your responses you have yet to give a new argument of how/why it matters for a LGBT in a Horror video game.
Not everyone wants black characters either. Should we toss those? How about female characters? Perks? The game itself? Or can we just let the devs do what they want, one of those things being the inclusion of LGBT lore?
That "Not everyone wants black characters either." isn't a counter argument along with the other stuff you stated here...nothing you said is argumentative just you being so blind to your own bias and their "wants" is because of PANDERING hence why they made a HUGE announcement because so many people kept crying for something as everyone will agree is trivial in a video game.
I don't even understand what this means.
Its not hard to understand that those getting ignored and etc where those against vs those who "Agreed" with you.
I said I may be biased by asking for a B or T character as opposed to L or G. You are, once again, putting words in my mouth.
I won't be replying to you any more because it's become clear to me you're not engaging in good faith. You keep misrepresenting what I'm saying and claiming I'm saying things I didn't say. Have a nice day.
Never once put any words in your mouth when you just said quote on quote:
Nobody is neutral and I literally admitted I might be biased right in the OP. It's the beginning of the second sentence.
Soooo what did I put in your mouth? being bias traits include ignoring the comments,the arguments, and or ignoring the people(s) criticisms, and what have you engaged in good faith? you outright said you were going/being biased.
I haven't once "Misrepresent" you when you did that yourself, and if you didn't say it then you are being yet again blind.
Its like talking to a wall like geez.
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No character is confirmed heterosexual. Some are confirmed to have significant others of the opposite sex. That is all.
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I don't think sexuality should be a main character trait of these insane serial murderers, as that would give the devs the idea to make their background (and thus the reason they're there) related to their sexuality, and a killer being a killer because of their sexuality wouldn't work.
survivor would definitely work, or even a killer that the devs just mention in a stream "our newest killer, who is also trans" and then never making it a main focus would work well too.
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I remember seeing something like this for the game Warframe on its forums years ago. I'm not sure if DE added any LGBT characters but I do remember people asking for plus sized and handicapped frames. DE ended up giving those people two plus sized frames but I dont think we will ever see a handicap frame. Which is the right thing to do because is doesn't really make any sense for the game and its lore. Hell I felt that way about the plus sized frames too but whatever. Now a survivor in a wheelchair for DBD makes more sense then a frame in a wheelchair in Warframe but I dont think it fits or is necessary for either game. If the call to add LGBT characters to DBD is really about equal representation then these same people should also be concerned about equal representation for the handicap.
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If the call to add LGBT characters to DBD is really about equal representation then these same people should also be concerned about equal representation for the handicap.
Deathslinger is already here, but I'm glad you're that concerned about representation and I'm happy we can count on your support for LGBT representation.
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The people who write the lore don't work on game balance or bug fixes.
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No I'm not concerned and nobody here calling for LGBT representation cares about equal representation for the handicap. They are hypocrites looking for something to complain about...that was my point.
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At this point, it's looking as though BHVR is non-commital to the idea and only said what they did about representation to appear more inclusive. Literally all they have to do is say that a character had a same-gender partner in the lore or give characters appropriate pride flag cosmetics. Hardly the most difficult thing to do, especially with how many new cosmetics they whip out each update.
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They still want to do it right and not just say it just to have it done and over.
we already have some kinds of handicapped representation. There is no need to ask for more when we know they are already included.
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yes the devs dont tell you anything about sexuality etc. So everyone can have theire own fantasies about the game. Specific LGBT chars are 100 % wrong in a game like DBD.
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yes the devs dont tell you anything about sexuality etc.
Wrong. Since the Nurse, some characters have had their (heterosexual) orientation mentioned.
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Do we have a married survivor? There are so many demographics which could be "represented" which are left up to the players. You have to remember some folks don't understand that unless sex is part of the game it is not important to give sexual preference, it just becomes about trying to push a political/social agenda.
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Do we have a married survivor?
Yes, Felix was married before he was taken. We also have survivors and killers who used to have opposite-sex partners. The Nurse was the first one, she had a husband who died.
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Yes we have a married survivor. Felix is married to a woman and they expected a child when he was abducted by the Entity
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My bad, I forgot about Felix.
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Yeah. Grow up. It doesn’t hurt you if they are added.
thise snowflakes asking for exclusion because ‚my precious horror game‘ need to wake up
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Why does it matter iof theyr'e added, who really cares about LGBt in a horror game, really, it's a game for god sake why do all you people feel the need to bring it into every single thing in life.
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Well, just admit it: you want to forget that Felix is not available 😉
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Why do you care, if it doesn't matter?
Shush.
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Why do you want to dictate how others feel about this?
what harm would it do to add them?
i care, many others care. Where is your problem with that? It would literally have zero impact on you or your gaming experience
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Why do you care, since you clearly feel the need to respond. You make posts about LGBT every week, it really is pointless, bunch of Karens.
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It would if they forced gay/trans characters into the game, I don't want to see that. If you want it use your imagination.
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