Put the "power" back in "power role"
The community has been split between the argument of which side is the stronger role, each side plagued by a bias of opinions, I am no exception to the bias but I do feel I can try to be as fair as I can be.
In my experience playing DBD I have found that killers are for the most part alot more unbalanced than survivors.
The balance of the game changes depending on the killer and their power. Playing a strong killer like spirit or nurse ( assuming you have the knowledge of how to play them ) is a different experience than playing wraith or pig. With this in mind il be basing my opinions on someone playing characters to be in the middle of the power scale.
1. Perks are some of the biggest game changes in DBD, depending on the perks you take your game can either be a complete breeze or a frustrating waste of time. This applies to both survivors and killers however there is a massive oversight in the balancing between the 2 sides
A. Survivors perks tend to have a direct impact on the experience for the most part, this isn't all but most perks available to them, certain perks a survivor takes can make an extremely impact on the game with 0 reprocession, and are usually re usable. Example of these super perks would be META perks and others like head on, lithe, spin chill, alert, power struggle.
B. Killer perks are generally passive, very few actually have a massive impact on the game, perks like Ruin, pgtw, and undying are strong perks but very few live up to their standard. Killer perks tend to be very inconsistent constantly varying in value match to match because of the specific weaknesses that are paired with them. hex perks can be cleansed, pop requires a hook having a maximum of 12 possible uses, and most other perks require specific and niche situations.
The difference between the perk strengths are massive causing a huge gap in balance depending on what you take. killers get a maximum of 4 perks, and those perks can be lost or useless making the choices you make for them difficult and could cost you the game no matter how META you build is. Survivors have 4 perks each ( a maximum of 16 perks ), if each survivor takes 2 meta perks and 2 random perks the changes they make with just 2 meta perks can cost a killer the game since they can be used multiple time ( excluding DS and UB ). Survivor perks need to be dialed back especially META perks with how powerful and plentiful they are for survivors. There is no reason for the 4 survivors to have stronger perks than the 1 killer.
2. Certain maps tend to be absolute survivor havens (examples being the coldwin farm maps and Haddon field), offering escape or refuge around every corner and allowing for little to no mistakes on the killers part while protecting survivors for suffering from theirs. With the recent additions of breakable walls being put in place to force killers to open pathways that where previously open is even more ridiculous and wastes alot of the killers time for no reward.
3. Gameplay mechanics that cater to survivors heavily are something that should be reworked to aid both sides. My first example is the hatch, if a killer gets 3 kill he's rewarded with a race to the hatch with the last survivor and hoping they aren't just hiding next to an exit gate holding the game hostage and forcing the killer to close hatch and hope that he can get to the gate in time (if he even chooses the right one). In my opinion once the third survivor is sacrificed the exit gates should power, the end game collapse start, and the hatch spawn closed, this doubles a rework for keys making them only usable by the person who takes them and making it a useful item in endgame.
There are plenty of other issues in the game that I feel should be looked into and considered for balance or reworking. But I want to know the communitys opinion on the points provide or even for others to makes points of their own.
All that i ask is before posting just considering trying to be as unbiased and possible since 100% isn't.
Comments
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Right so even though killers at red ranks have a 65%+ kill/win rate, they are not the power role?
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So why do they have that killrate?
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of corse they have a bigger kill rate thats the point of killing
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There shouldn't be a "power role" in dead by daylight, it's a survival simulator just as much as a murder simulator and both sides are supposed to be able to win.
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Because the game is not unbalanced and unfair for killer like it used to be, and killers have obtained their wanted power role.
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I disagree. In a 4v1 the 1 should be the power role because they have to go against the 4.
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Devs have stated that to balance this game, a 50% kill rate is the pinicle of balance. Are you sayign that balance should be around killing everyone?
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yes
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I think the game is probably fairly close to 50% now. The stats for all ranks including red ranks wasn't too far off. The Mori nerf has probably shifted everything right there. No clue how much it effected red ranks though
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If killers were truly the power role, like some killers (Nurse/Spirit), they wouldn't need to depend on survivors mistakes.
Perfect survivors easily stomp perfect killers. Depip squad and tournaments proved that forever ago.
As far as kill rates, I wouldn't be surprised if these devs considered DC as kills. You also got rage hook suicide to inflate kill rates to get certain killers nerfed. The rabbit hole goes deep.
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65%. That's quite a fair bit over 50%. Closer to 75 than 50. These stats were also done before ruin undying fyi. Mori's may have change it a bit i'll give you that but no more than ruin undyign would have shifted it away from 50.
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well then you've got the balance wrong. You want killers to win everygame, and that's not how a fair game works.
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Killers should be stronger than survivors it's literally 4 brains against 1 brain
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nun of it matters its not like this game makes use live longer why complain about it
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Most dc's often occur when a survivor is close to death or goign to die anyways so i doubt that would change much, especially considerign a killer dc would count as a 4man out.
Just like survivors can have depip squad and destroy killers, these days killers can go on 150+ win streaks consistnetly. I don't see any 150+ 4man escapes, infact the highest recorded is under 50 i'm pretty sure.
Idk from what i've experience, whenever I loose a game 98% of the time i can rewatch it and clearly pick apart teh mistakes i made which caused the loss, there are the occasional games where you just can't win no matter how perfect you play because of rng, map etc, but the same goes for survivor. A 3 gen agaisnt a nurse/blight or a coal tower 3 gen is a good example, if a killer chooses to defend this, sometimes there's not much you can do, especially if they are a decent killer.
I will agree suicides probably do skew the figures slightly but not even close enough to cause an over 15% swing.
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We've seen his much "power" survivors have. Let's not forget, DC penalty was introduced because MASS suicides on certain killers. (Which eventually lead to nerfs)
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How'd you get 65%? it's 56% including all ranks.
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65% is red ranks. Don't try and tell me that you should balance for grey ranks.
On an interesting note however, people always say that killer starts off easy in lower ranks and then gets harder... these stats prove otherwise.
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Exactly so now that dc penalty is in the game dc's wont be as huge of an influencial factor in win rates.
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I Agree that killers shouldn't win 100% of the time, as far as the killing 2 survivors counting as a win for a killer is completely false. In red rank anything under a 3k with a decently paced game is a black pip or less.
To fix that you could re balance the emblem system instead to offer more progression based of that 50% ratio
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This game makes survivors live longer?
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Two isn't a win and shouldnt be. It's a draw, so makes sense you would black pip, (I've actually had 1ks which are pips). The ranking and emblem system shoudl definitely be looked at as i do think it punishes you in the wrong areas and rewards you in teh wrong areas as killer. IE: Tunneling two people out of the game and getting 6 hooks will reward you more than 2 hooking everyone
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But you don't see the problem that all ranks has 56% including a 68% kill rate of ranks 1-5? Then there's the fact that the 68% probably is overinflated with suicide on hooks, yolo altruism, Moris, farming, matchmaking and people doing dumb things for the rift. We're not even talking about what they're talking about with the power role stuff.
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im talking about real life not the game
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I don't think the killer isn't a power role because of winrate. Its not a power role because so much of a killer's time is spent being impotent or unable make progress towards you want to accomplish due to animation locks, 'safe zones,' ect.
Obviously this is critical to balance, but its why killer doesn't feel good. Ring around the Rosie is a bad mechanic to make you feel like a powerful horror monster, and the game's bias towards fast paced play after vacuum was added, survivor speed decreased (It was critical to stop loops but also high speed made, ironically, stealth play better, as losing the killer in a chase visually was more rewarded as you displaced more distance) all the detection perks were buffed/added, made the game more and more tag and less high stakes hide and seek.
Fixing this is tricky, but there are a lot of little ways to do it if the game is going to remain fast paced. For example, pallet stuns could instead of taking away camera control just make your camera 'recoil' and tilt a bit while you can still look around. Vaulting could not lock the camera (though this is a MUCH bigger balance change than it seems). Killers could get freed up from being camera locked on pickup which has the side benefit of stopping 'unstoppable' flashlight saves (Which TBH are a terrible mechanic. I would prefer flashlights to be slightly faster but never something you can just auto-land due to an animation lock so its about surprising the killer).
The killer doesn't necessarily need buffs. They need QoL changes that make it less tilt inducing and make the average game a better experience. Being the killer is often nauseating, especially ones with movement powers, and is frustrating because a LOT of your game time is spent with the game controlling your character. The killer has a 65% killrate at the high end, and its generally at this ideal distribution of 1 or 3 kills average, rather than lots of no kill or 4 kill games, which I think is actually more important than kill rate, ideally killers should never be 'blown out' an the best survivor should live, even if the emblem system doesn't reward this. So balance wise it feels ok, its just blowout games or situations where your outplayed feel REALLY awful as a killer in a way that they don't as a survivor, because your forced to continually participate in your own defeat while survivors get the 'benefit' of helplessness and a bit of a cool down period to recollect themselves.
Another thing that could change is making a hatch escape as good as a sacrifice with a no-one surviving being a bonus emblem wise to reduce hatch anxiety. The killer emblem system is kinda awful because while its trying to encourage killers drawing out the game what it actually does is heavily encourage killers to snowball the game by getting an early kill or two and then just sorta holding the game hostage to farm chases and brutality before going in for finishing off the last two survivors and probably losing a hook stage or three to a hatch. The hatch is absolutely a fantastic mechanic that allows solo survivors to have their skill always count even if their team are pseudo-sapient potatoes because the fact the killer has a more limited map presence than the entire survivor team lets you bang out two gens then find it, but it just is a real feels bad mechanic for the killer because the hatch ISN'T really a skill based mechanic for the killer, unless your doing super comically well and can afford to search for it due to not being gen pressured at all.
Also, end game collapse was a downright silly idea as a way to prevent survivors taking the game hostage after they won by just hiding in the map for 1 hour after the gates were open, and transparently a way to let survivors teabag at exit gates still even during blowout games and to force killers to continually participate in their own loss. It is actually shameful DBD prioritized this negative experience over just adding a flipping concede button that instantly pays out survivors for the remaining gens, gate open, and heals and ends the match. You want to know why survivor Q can take so long? Its because devs make more work for themselves to keep experiences in the game that solely exist to allow people to BM at game end.
TL;DR: Killer just needs a lot of things that make it feel better, more than a power boost. A big problem with DBD's design is that areas that frustrate survivors get immediate, extreme attention, while major killer QOL issues like FLIPPING GRAB CANCELS aren't even on the radar.
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The Issue coming into this is that as a killer it is much more difficult to go through each survivor 1 hook at a time and pressure gens, chase times are way to long with loops and exhaustion perks added into the mix, but killers are forced to play to the "survivor rule book" by the devs with perks like DS and UB. I am in no way condoning tunneling and camping but survivors aren't forced to play any certain way for the killers sake its only one way around. And in the end playing to the way survivors want you to ends with a de pip and the possible harrasment in end game lobby, but if you play the other way around you get dc's and the same harassment in the lobby.
In the current moment the survivors have a better chance of "winning" than the killer, not to mention the amount of gameplay mechanics stacked against the killer to achieve his goal and how much the game punishes them for doing so. If DBD punished survivors for gen rushing it would cause a massive out cry in the survivor community because they are literally doing their objective. But for killers its ok for the game to punish you for doing yours
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1A) Of all the survivor perks you mentioned, the only one which COULD make a difference is Head On, and not even during a chase. Plus, to really make a difference with that perk, you would need to be SWF.
1B) PGTW activates whenever you hook, and you have plenty of time to make us of the massive regression it provides. Ruin and Undying, paired with applying pressure, are one of the strongest combo at a killer's disposal, and that is a big time waster for survivors. After that, there are many other useful perks killers can use: PWYF, STBFL, Make Your Choice, Devour Hope, Blood Warden, Remember Me, Brutal Strenght, Agitation, Dying Light, Thanatophobia, Infectious Fright. Not to mention the fact that many perks, like BBQ and Nurse's Calling make the work YOU should be doing for you. Not all perks are supposed to be equally strong on every single killer. That adds some PRECIOUS variety to the game. (Have you ever played Rainbow Six? Every match the ops picked and banned are always the same, which makes it kinda tedious).
I don't remember getting a single powerful survivor perk since Zarina's "For The People". And even then, it has a huge drawback. As for more recent perks, like Cheryl's, they are highly situational. What you are proposing is, in practice, to completely kill solo survivors' experience. The only thing that could be done would be to limit the amount of equal perks 4 survivors bring into the match, even tho not for every perk. Like no more than 2 UB, for instance, and perhaps show each survivor the perks their companions have equipped, while in lobby.
2) A point with almost no mistakes, finally. Why almost? What you said is true about some maps (even though breaking walls is neither a time waster nor something that does not reward you, but whatever). You forgot to add that there are, and there were, maps that were a death sentence for survivors, one being Yamaoka's Estate, for instance. On some maps, the amount of pallets is just pathetically low, while on some other maps there are many more unsafe pallets then everything else. You want to talk about something, do it thoroughly.
3) Jesus, another post about the hatch. How long is this thing going to be like that. Please, please, please, get that into your killer minds, hatch is not a free escape, killers do NOT have to get a 4k every single goddamn game. This is getting ridiculous now.
Now, for off-topic points, should we talk about how often exit gates are close to each other, with a hill in between that the killer can sit on?
Relly, dude. If you want to talk about BALANCE, it means you'll have to consider both sides in the same way. All I see is killer-sided points here. As much as something is true, doesn't mean all the rest is.
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You're confusing "power role" with "more powerful role". The power role is the role that is stronger in a 1v1 against another role. In DBD, that should absolutely be the case. Survivors should not be able to indefinitely 1v1 the Killer unless matchmaking really destroyed them. A Killer needs to be 4x as strong as a single survivor to balance out the asymmetrical nature of the game. rn, Killers aren't that. A good survivor can 1v1 any Killer bar Slinger, Spirit, and Nurse with next to no difficulty, and a REALLY good survivor can 1v1 everything except an equally skilled Nurse with no issues. We don't want Killers to be OP. We just want them to be powerful enough to take on the 1v4 without frustration, stress, depression, and/or rage
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I Have to say I dont see that much support in your points but I respect your opinion of mine nonetheless so let me try to see if I can explain some things you thought I explained poorly.
1. I completely disagree with your view on the survivor perks, most of the perks I mentioned I.E. spin chill, and lithe are powerful and constant use perks offering use in escape and information, something that provides a massive advantage ( imagine if killers had a perk that told you if you were looking at a survivor within a certain distance and never shut off ). Alot of the killer perks you mention fall under the "situational" or "Niche" such as blood warden, remember me, and make your choice, and alot of the other perks as I mentioned already have draw backs or even flat out ways to remove them I.E. STBFL, ruin, Devour hope, Dying light, PWYF. I don't want to kill the experience of solo survivors, I dont see how a review of survivor perks for balance would kill their experience, it is instead meant to give the killer a chance to fight teams of good survivors who have almost no difficulty facing the killer with their plethora of perks to escape the killer regardless of how well the killer plays against them I.E. Deadhard,and Lithe.
2. I once again disagree with your view of the breakable walls, half if the walls added in recently are in doorways previously unblocked and requires the killer to either lose distance on the survivor by breaking them or get infinite looped by vaulting the window. Pallets are a resource in maps and should be used with that in mind, just because there aren't many pallets doesn't mean there aren't windows to loop with (also the amount of pallets on each map is random so blame the RNG for that not the maps themselves).
3. i don't play for a 4k every game the point of the hatch subject is that the mechanic is blatantly survivor sided, and even if the killer closes the hatch the survivor still has the exit gates to use which can be opened with very little time at all. Once again you complain about RNG and blame a killer for using their advantage by the map spawning the gates close with a point of elevation, its obvious your biased for survivor. I have once again tried to be as unbiased as I can but you didn't even make an attempt. All I have seen here is survivor sided views but I am open to discussion about the points I have listed but try to keep it civil.
Post edited by HowsMars on2 -
I've been playing for 4 year's and as you can imagine I've had people do just about anything you think in a match,I'm an average survivor and if that's the way killers are for everyone then DBD needs to remain survivor sided as everyone puts it,killer's really should have a skill cap to prevent tunneling and camping TBH.
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You say we should balance around red ranks. Which red ranks? The difference between red rank players is higher then the difference between the weaker red ranks and yellow ranks.
We should really start to ignore rank for now. The devs are not happy with the emblem system, they try do build the new MMR-system for a long time now, and everyone sees the difference in skill in red rank.
So til the MMR is implemented all data depending ranks has many flaws.
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The only reason i'm saying red rank stats matter and the others dont is because other ranks are full of people either new to the game, smurfing, deranking etc and is not a good representation of normal games.
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Red ranks are very often not a good representation of normal games either considering how full it is with bad players
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Yh but there are many reasons why red rank doesnt matter, too.
So when you can see that there are many problems with data gathering, why do you use it? We should atleast wait til the MMR-system before we draw conclusions.
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Who would play survivor if you died almost every time? That makes no sense. Both sides need to have an opportunity to do their objectives or this game would die fast.
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People just mean "power role = stronger side in 4v1". Not the definition I'd pick, but it makes sense too. The killer is very clearly stronger in the 1v1.
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1) Killer perks are generally stronger than survivor perks. Regardless, kill rate shows that killers are doing just fine and it only goes up at red rank. If survivor perks give more of a benefit, then, it's clearly needed.
That's not to say perks like DS don't need a nerf, but still.
2) There are killer sided and survivor sided maps in the game. Ironically enough, though, even the most survivor sided maps still have a kill rate of over 50% (50% being the balance BHVR has said they're aiming for).
3) I personally think the hatch is a great mechanic. It makes for a fun little mini game at the end, and it gives survivors another incentive not to DC even if they're getting absolutely stomped. Even with a key, it is relatively uncommon that a single survivor will escape the match through the hatch. Usually you will lose the key due to Franklin's, escape easily and not need to use it, get tunnelled out of the match before hatch even spawns and your teammates don't (or can't) pick up the key, etc. With or without a key, the killer has the advantage in a 1v1 open-hatch situation unless the exit gates are spaced far apart, they have low mobility, and they don't have Whispers or Remember Me.
I would change keys such that the hatch immediately shuts behind the person using the key. Still, I think they're borderline fine and they don't bother me as killer.
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TL;DR Killer is outperforming survivor at the moment. There are unbalanced things still to address on both sides, but stats show that game balance skews towards killer, especially at red rank.
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I'm a bit confused as to why you would want the game to remain unbalanced if you have been playing since 2016 or 17 ( thats considering you play killer not just survivor). I've had plenty of games with all sorts of crazy stuff happening or even being camped or tunneled in the game at the beginning of that match. Putting a skill cap on killers doesn't make it harder for them to Bm you it actually encourages a killer to camp or tunnel to gain pressure, and its already obvious that DS and UB aren't going to stop killers from tunneling or slugging because most post i see like yours still complain about it. There needs to be a different system in place that discourages killers from doing such things that don't end up over reaching into just punishing normal killers for doing their objective and letting survivors make massive amounts of mistakes and recover with little consequences like hook states.
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I actually agree with some of what you said but there are some I would like for you to explain a bit better
1. In my original post I Detailed the draw backs to most killers perks especially the stronger one I.E. Ruin, and pop. And also show that survivor perks carry little draw back to them if any at all I.E. deadhard, UB, Head on, Alert, Spin chill. I definitely would like to discuss what killer perks you consider to be strong in comparison to survivor perks, I know that there are META perks on each side I won't deny that my point being is that killer meta perks tend to be fewer and have requirements or draw backs that can render them useless.
2. I have no argument since I do also believe that there are maps that aid the killer a whole lot more than survivor and vice versa I.E. dead dog salon, azoravs, lerys. I think that maps should be reworked to not favor either side but to offer a fair chance to each side, something I think the devs have a hard time doing since it is 100% easier said than done.
3. As a solo only survivor I have used the hatch alot, and it has saved me from losing games with 2 teammates killing themselves on hook, but at the same time I usually don't much care for a victory that's handed to me just because I stumbled upon the right jungle gym. Personally I believe that the last part of the match is generally the most boring and frustrating as killer unless you got lucky enough to close the hatch and have 2 exit gate close together, I understand that this happens but in my experience not enough for the amount of complaints to it. Point being I just don't generally enjoy the hatch on either side since it can be abused by either, I think a better end game should be put in place to replace the hatch
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We'll it's like giving a monkey a loaded gun and a banana. If you're really great at survivor then you'll be ableto loop a killer who camps hypothetically. Someone who plays this way will camp anyway so why give them more power to do it,skill caps probably prevent player's like this from ruining games for the larger percentage of the community in which we all get the people who do this we just rotate them,on top of that thiers people who will get good just to stream snipe hard working people on twitch to sometimes have good fun then other's who want do BS the entire game like tunnel you, and camp you ,or whatever.
I complain about outright cheating, lag switching and and whatever survivor's are doing to get killer's "REVIEWED"
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Something I have to point out, killrates are garbage because of survivor entitlement. Every hook suicide inflates these rates.
Imagine a freddy 4k game going like this, freddy downs someone after 3 gens. They fail kobe and kill thenselves on hook, 2 ppl see this and look for freddy to get downed and killed. The 4th person tries to make it to the hatch but fails bevause team throwing and dies. Freddy nownhas a 100% kill rate for 1 game where he may have only gotten 1 because survivors gor so mad he played freddy that they ragwd
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"Too entitled to even live"
can't make this up.
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Play a different game then.
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Once again skill caps on killers will only encourage the BM behavior, a good survivor can loop but the second they get hooked it would be more worth the killers time to guard it till 2nd state or even a sacrifice. If you want to punish the entire killer community for the BM of some then thats flawed logic, you should encourage players to play fair not push them to play the oppisite, both sides matter in this argument as I stated in the original post try not to be biased. Survivors do toxic stuff to killers but im not using that as a basis for my argument because not all survivors are toxic. Punishing the majority for the actions of the minority of the communitys is going to cause a drop in player base all together and force killers to play even more toxic to have a chance.
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I think the biggest issue is the ranking system. 2 survivors killed and 2 escaping should be what is aimed at for balance, the only problem is with the current pip system a killer can get a 3k and depip or black pip while a survivor can straight up die and pip. I personally feel they should ditch pips for a straight number +/- like other competitive games in order to reward both sides for good play.
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Listen I'm not sure where you interpreted that, I'm being biase.Trust me I'm not happy about any of the recent changes to Pyramid Head or Mori's.I don't play in this manner regardless because it's boring, so none of this really effects me as a killer,But what does effect me is getting killer's changed a certain way so they can exploit ,whatever change the killer's had.
It doesn't make you less skilled because, now you can't use a nerf killer ,it's you're groove got changed so now you got to adapted over again.
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To be honest most survivors I play against that DC is because they can't bully, the mass dc problem before was because survivors thought spirit was OP and couldn't have easy game against her. On that point though spirit is one of the strongest killers right up there with nurse that survivors have also complained about in mass. The big difference between spirit and nurse compared to the other killers is that they have a very high skill cap ( spirit was definitely alot easier to play than the nurse however making her able to steam role with little time invested ). Survivors DC from anything between losing a chase to being walked to their final hook, that not saying those are the only reason or that all survivors will do such but just trying to point out that DC's shouldn't be considered for a killers power, let alone for all of the different killers
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I thought you were biased because of the mention of keeping killers weaker than survivors, but il give you the benefit of the doubt.
Id like to know your thoughts on the points I've listed to yours but for the new one I agree that killers shouldn't be "nerfed" into abusing their power like the case with Pyramid head, survivors complained that his power was to strong for mind gaming the beam attack and forcing m1's so they added some blockers to his potential of such and made his power easier and more rewarding to use. In the end they made him a more brain dead character by removing mind games and making his power have very little consequences to being used constantly, but if all they did was remove the mind game potential and nerf his ability more so then you wouldnt see him past green rank. so I have a question would you rather take the pre nerf Pyramid head or the new one? And after that what changes would you make to his kit to make it a viable but "fair" killer
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Not too entitled to live, too entitled to simply play the game in a way they dont want to. Seriously, look at all the people that hook suicide or dc because the killer isnt one they approve of.
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It's about a 12 second lead on Pyramid Head.I do pretty well in my matches those problems I,listed imo would add more life back during matches,if they find away to stop people from just looking up you're IP address and edosing people or whatever their doing right when you're about to hit them ,the connection breaks at such a convenient time when trying to land a hit or starting the chase in general.
The killer side is balanced,it's like a game of Tug of War,You can get in a match and get beat within 5 minutes, or you can get in a game draw it out to 15 minutes for a win ,some games go faster depending upon how altruistic the survivor's are.
Also survivor's pretty much threatened the dev's to get what they want.All killer mains need is for our killer's to not get touched because one person didn't have enough time to jump across a pallet and meme you.
Those are the best reasons earlier, I could state ,why making all killer's easier to play will only add to the problem.who want's to be camped and tunneled by some dude when you're just trying to probably see the next killer,or just have fun,some people do annoying mean stuff on here but they can play how they want it's often very funny.
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