Should tunnelling be punished through pipping?
I've been having many discussion on the toxicity of tunnelling and camping and how it's annoying for players, especially of white ranks. I play red rank and can say there's considerably less toxicity in higher skilled players, however my friends are white rank and so I play with them and there's a lot of toxicity there.
There is already a penalty for camping in the pipping scores, but should there be a penalty if you hit a survivor within a certain time of them getting off the hook, making tunnellers have a harder time progressing through ranks, or not?
I'd like to hear the community's opinion!
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The thing is though is that a lot of players don't care about pipping/ranking up anymore since Rank is meaningless. Those who hard camp/tunnel care even less because those actions already hurt your chance of pipping up. 🤷♀️
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Nope. If you unhook right in front of the killer, and the killer hits the person who was unhooked, it doesn't mean the killer was toxic.
It means you are bad, and farmed your teammate. The pip system punishes YOU and REWARDS the killer right now, and that is a good design. The killer should be rewarded for high skill plays, and punishing survivor mistakes is a high skill play.
The devs experimented with a few more anti-camp/tunnel penalties before, and found that it just results in the game breaking, which makes sense: Any further punishment to killers defending the hook other than what they already got would mean making hooking actively bad for killer, and removing any skill from survivor rescue plays.
If you wanna unhook in the killer's face, run borrowed time and eat the hit for your buddy so that all together the killer needs to land 3 attacks to down the hooked victim. If you don't want to do that, count to 30 and rescue then so the killer isn't right next to the hook. Insta-rescues, aka hook farming, is a very low skill survivor play that FORCES the killer to tunnel to maintain pressure.
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Very good point, I didn't think of if the survivor was just bad and made the mistake. I guess you just have to learn how to counter it as it is and move into ranks where it doesn't happen.
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I think why it happens more in the 10's especially is that at red ranks killers don't necessarily expect insta-rescues, while in those lower rated ranks you often have survivors who understand how to play ok but are not great at decision making. Like they know not to sit around in a bush hiding or run around at random, and that they should be brave and rescue, but aren't quite at the point where they can think about how the killer thinks when rescuing and do things like delay the rescue.
So from the killer perspective at those ranks your expecting an insta-rescue basically every time, and thus will end up with tunneling being the 'correct' play far more often.
At red ranks, survivors are much more clever about making when they rescue very unpredictable, sometimes rescuing 10 seconds in to punish the killer just zooming off to a gen, but usually rescuing more at the 30 to 40 second mark where the killer really can't afford to still be there. So you get some of the benefits of insta-rescues but avoid most of the pitfalls because the killers at those ranks are more conditioned to expect some survivors to be very good at sticking to gens and forcing them away from the hook before they go for the rescue.
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You already get "invincible" survivors as it is with rushing the killer when they have BT/DS.
I can't imagine how bad it would get if the recently unhooked survivor could harass the killer at their whim because the killer is either forced to hit them and lose out points or ignore them and try to play around the survivor constantly getting in their way...
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I don't think there should even be a pip penalty for camping.
"You camped those survivors? Here's your punishment: Facing easier survivors who don't know how to deal with your strategy!"
Had a Spirit tunnel me yesterday. He wasn't particularly good and tunneled me straight off the hook. I'm not the best of survivors, but he chased me for a good while, and more gens got done, and eventually I escaped and got another gen done myself. His penalty for tunneling was what it should be: Gens getting done. I was good enough to actually get away. (And again, I'm not the best of survivors!). He wasn't too happy, and of course hit me on the hook for having the audacity of not going down immediately. (I never once teabagged him). He did eventually get me, but at the sacrifice of gens.
The other day had another killer tunnel me straight off the hook. I wasn't in a good position to get away, but off my second unhook my teammate used For the People, and I managed to get away. Me and two others escaped, while my teammate sadly died on their third hook. But we got the gens done because they were focusing on one person
And again, these aren't survivor's rule book definitions of tunneling. They stayed near the hook, came straight at me and ignored my teammate who was right there in front of me and not hiding in a bush.
Better survivors know how to deal with camping and tunneling. We shouldn't reward killers for these strategies by giving them easier opponents. Make them face tougher opponents.
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Why not grant killers emblems for not tunneling/new chases instead of punishing them for tunneling/chasing 1 survivor until they're dead ?
I feel like rewarding people for "fair" playstyles is healthier than punishing them for "unfair" playstyles.
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Plus with the twins you can severely punish people that hide and try to hook rush by finding them slugging them or insta downing the unhooked player with victor and being close enough to grab or stop the heal to mess with them
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Again the twins can now counter that strategy by allowing you to be 2 places at once
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Hard disagree. It punishes the farmed team mate more than anyone, and it was not a bad play on their part since they have no say if they get farmed from the hook or not.
When were those experiments for anti camp/tunnel penalties? Can you give an example on that?
Also a survivor unhooking me in your face without BT, doesn't force you to tunnel me. You still make that decision on your own alone.
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Even if I choose to tunnel you, there's nothing that says I'm breaking any rules. If I hooked you, someone without BT saved you right in front of me, your tasting the dirt again. I usually go for the rescuer because I suspect BT and DS. If I know the saver doesn't have BT then yes I will down you because I know your not going anywhere. Then I will chase the person who saved you. That way you have to waste UB if you have it or someone else has to drop what they are doing to save you. When I hook the saver, if your still on the ground, I'm putting you back on the hook. It's not cheating, it's not toxic, it's playing killer efficiently. Stop blaming the killer for your bad team mates.
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They talked about it in one of the older devstreams, around 2017 I believe. They did an internal test of slowing/pausing the hook more but that just resulted in the survivors having absolutely no cost in rushing the hook and running around it forcing the killer to stay there while someone did a gen.
I will try to find it! However this is is multiple hours of video so it may take a bit.
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Found it. Located at 17:30.
Specifically their alpha testers felt it was 'weird and bad' and that survivor behavior changed dramatically when they knew the killer wasn't 'allowed' to camp in a way that made the game worse.
Camping is essentially a survivor behavior issue where the survivors are not pressuring the killer appropriately, and it makes sense that mechanical changes that punish the killer for noticing this make the game dumb because it creates a scenario where the killer just... lacks good options.
While there is some merit to that its kinda messed up the system punishes the farmed survivor more than the farming survivor, that isn't the killer's problem. Perhaps there should be an EXTREME emblem penalty for farming a survivor? But that risks 'collateral' damage on survivors who try to do a risky but 'honest' unhook.
Ultimately, however, its bad game design to try to 'sand the edges' off the experience at all costs. We need to evaluate the cost-benefit of hook camping: does the negative experience of being farmed by teammates or killers NEEDING to camp to maintain propper tempo in a round offset the benefits of the interaction of camping? Tests show, no, it doesn't, its vital, and in fact a lot of complaints in the era where devs were putting in completely bonkers anti-tunnel/camp tools (old BT for example, which is possibly the anti-camping tool alluded to in the stream, which funnily enough still ended up distorting the game to the survivors just rushing the hook like madlads) show it actually makes the game really boring for the survivors because there is no tension in getting caught until your third hook. The POSSIBILITY of every chase being your last is critical to avoiding the game becoming an M1 sim.
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The problem is one of your teammates is screwing you, not the killer. Sure no one forced the killer to go after you, but no one forced your teammate to unhook you before the killer has even had time to sip some ######### water.
Which is why you see killers losing sympathy. After awhile it really just sounds like survivors trying to convince killers to give them free full escapes without effort. As long as the hook system has no mandatory time out period, putting you right back on there is completely fair.
Its the same thing with camping. The best defence against a face camper is to realize what's happening and do gens. Yet time and time again I find myself suiciding first hook because my teammates refuse to just do freaking gens and I'm not in the mood to be farmed by my teammates and tunneled by the killer. Especially when my kindred is outright showing you the killer exchanging eye fluid with me.
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Well camping isn't breaking any rules and you still get punished for it. I never mentioned rules anywhere in post. And where did I blame the killer? I talked about ME being punished because of a team mate.
Yea it's easy to say just do gens when a killer camps, but what if it's you on the hook? depip with almost no points. It's like you people only look in your own direction and don't consider the experience of the ones who actually get affected by it, which is mostly solo q survivors.
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Lol
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Lets face it. I have spent the last days really anjoying dbd again. Had a variety of killers, an occasional camp/tunnel but usually a new player who didnt know any better. But after two days of playing, i got back into purple ranks. Rank 5. Do i enjoy it? Nope....Why? cause this is where the spirits main tunnel camp killers are. 10 out of 10 score just now. People arent rush unhooking. Usually when it happens, its a spirit people dont even want to play against (when does she get an outplay?) If people unhook in your face, its cause you never left the hook and as good altruistic people, we survs feel bad to let a person die on their first hook. Even against better judgement and knowing they will probably just be tunnelled too. Its in the nature of people who play survivor to do an unhook and its why the camp strategy is so succesfull. I hardly ever encounter a hardcore farm. Its just killers who never leave the hook or run circles around it. Why bt still not activates in range but in heartbeat, is beyond me. Every ghostface i encounter is in stealth mode close to the hook. So is every wraith. The rest just waits just outside the range to get people that get unhooked. No pressuring gens..just waiting for the unhook. As a survivor, i get a few points for doing gens. I get my majority at once when i escape the trail. Thats apparently worth 5k points at once. I would love behaviour to implement this too for survivors. Give every hook a small amount of points, award 5k points when you do had 10 hooks or more. Also, no points for bleeding on the floor. If the killer didnt pick me up in time cause I lost him, how come i dont get the points for succesfully getting away from the killer but he does, although he didnt even kill me? Only hooks should reward points in my opinion. If i am left bleeding out for 4 minutes on the ground, at least give me the satisfaction that i know i denied the killer the 4k and his points. He couldnt find me, yet he gets points for being bad. I outsmarted him, he gets points....strange things....Bleeding out should never be awarded as a kill for the killer. Only hooks should. When the killer actively killed me
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Chances are you're rewarding them by deranking them were the matchmaking less borked than it is, since they tunnel somebody to be less stressed and be able to be laid back the rest of the game especially if they suspect or confirmed they're dealing with a group. So depip away, sometimes when somebody is camping you and you're first hook especially, yeah they might be an idgit but they might also be depipping through you in a way less boring than being afk and while getting at least a few bp for it.
It doesn't work as well depipping that way with insidious I think, so idk what those guys are thinking unless they wanna troll or are just frustrated with frequent saves and few kills maybe. In which case can't blame for doing what they gotta do to make the game funf or themselves. That's what we're all doing while we play. In a game like this there isn't usually enoughf un to go around for everyone, unless you're happy farming, so in order to have your fun you have to take it from somebody else.
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I am still pretty new to the game, but a few times I unintentionally tunneled a survivor simply because they were always where I went. Wasn't on purpose but I won't ignore someone just cause they were just unhooked if they are right in front of me. Also I am not very familiar yet with the survivor names and models, I just see a person and go for them. Would suck if I got pe realized for just doing what I am supposed to do, kill the survivors I see.
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You should change the tunnel to "Should Titling be Rewarded Through Depipping and Avoiding the Most Annoying SWF More Often" I had worked out how to have fun and make some solid bp without pipping, and would just afk a game or two in a row when I screwed after playing killer once it was back down toward 20 to keep a pool of easier survivors. Since I couldn't derank at those ranks, I would just avoid pipping enough to rank up was all. And had fun doing it. The matchmaking has been a mess for a while though so obviously that doesn't matter any more so I hadn't played killer for a while. hue hue hue
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No - Stop punishing killers for playing the game
It didn't work for camping
It won't work for tunneling
100 times over it didn't do anything for camping it just makes killers double down on it once they know they're at the point of no return and if anything it made the issue worse.
dezzmont pretty much said everything else that needed to be said about the issue.
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Pretty much since I was fairly young I have the mindset if I know I'm gonna get in trouble for something I didn't do especially, but even if I did do it, either do it or do it even harder and make it worth it. lol. Also i think they banned my IP address on these boards since they justs topped working and giving errors without turning on my vpn extension in the browser. smooth move exlaxes
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Might be your DNS but I did notice the other day a lot of comments from certain people disappeared randomly. Granted I'd not heard of BHVR shadowbanning usually they just blatantly ban people.
But yeah a lot of people just double down with the new penalty system and I feel that's why we shouldn't pursue this system further for punishing killers for taking advantage of the options they have.
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It was odd swapping back and forth, but it finally started working again without the vpn after a few minutes so idk what happened. I did make sarcastic joke posts sometimes that some softer sorts would view maybe as edgy so I wouldn't be surprised if a couple certain posts disappeared just to avoid the reactions possible to them. I mean I would understand why a couple of them specifically would disappear if they have, even thought hey weren't something ban worthy (which would be why I'm not banned for them). They were jokes but some people take some things too seriously these days and could have overreacted to them probably if they needed some exlax.
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I don't think so because there are to many situations where the killer can't help but tunnel. Like if the survivor has gone for a unsafe unhook or a blendette has saved and disappeared into the night leaving the killer to only see them etc.
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if you're ona gen halfway over, or close to halfway if at least one other person is on it with you (one runs off closer to finishing it to rescue before the next hook stage) then finish the gen to use the time more efficiently. Unless it's double bp and you are using bp offerings or there's streamers and you want as many points as possible, but even then, wait until the killer is far enough away and take protection hits to build wglf stacks off the guy. Don't let him go down until it at least says it was a safe unhook lol.
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