HOW is DS STILL not being changed!?!
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I mean that was 3 perk slots and UB DS SG give survivors a minute of invincability and you cant even camp the slugged guy cause SG
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It's funny that people complain about Undetectable perks like Tinkerer. Just run Spine Chill!
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To be fair people have been complaining for years, but in those years its gotten 2 reworks both big nerfs, i agree it needs more changes though. My guess is that statistically it is fine just like OoO and they literally just don't care about how much players enjoy it.
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You are right, I will not tunnel a person who was just unhooked doing a generator right in front of my face.
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Because everyone uses DS and the majority who play this game are survivors, not killers. Complaining about DS, which came from all sides and parts of the community, for years, evidently is less important and impactful than Undying, which received changes very quick. Also, something something keys being changed btw.
Just change everything for survivors and leave killers, after all there's a severe shortage of killers for no real reason :)
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When people complain about Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer, it’s not the Undetectable status that they find problematic. It’s that the killer is notified every time a gen is nearly done, which allows them to chase survivors off the gen for easy regression with Ruin. Not saying whether these complaints are justified or not, but Spine Chill does absolutely nothing to address people’s issues.
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There is an easy fix. Do bones. If you can't adapt then you are bad.
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But that's what those perks are supposed to do: reward the killer for pressuring gens. He can't stop every gen as it's about to be completed, either because more than 1 gen is about to be done or he's in a chase he can't afford to drop. Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer is strong but it's not the "use these perks and you can't lose" type of combo.
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Yes that's exactly what I said
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Pretending like until yesterday mori users weren't those trashcan killers who can't get more than 1k without first hook moring people
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They will lose profits if DS is nerfed. Their survivor cash cows are very sensitive
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You obviously haven't played killer very well then I guess?
I can hook 2 other survivors before I find the 1st unhooked survivor and still getting hit by ds.
Tell me with all honesty, how is that still considered tunneling?
The perk is more of an anti momentum perk than a anti tunnel perk.
If you as killer are stronger and more efficient than the survivors you will get punished for it, while the survivors will be rewarded for it?
Make sense?
Nope I didn't think so either.
60s ds timer is way to long, either make it 30s or make it where it deactivates with certain actions.
It's not hard to Balance the perk, the devs are just ignorant and incapable of thinking for logical solutions.
If they nerf a survivorperk the forums overflowing with disbelief and salty people wondering why they nerfed a certain perk.
And the devs listen to them because let's be fair, they don't want 80% of the player base side against them
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DS needs a nerfy rework imo. Not a nerf. Undying was nerfed because it just needed to be nerfed, although they went too damn far with the nerf in my opinion. But I like that it now has synergy with token hexes. I guess that's something.
DS needs to actually counter tunneling without survivors being able to abuse it. Something along the lines of the following: the timer remains the same, but the perk is deactivated if you interact with gens or perform other actions (healing people? getting into lockers? etc). Maybe it could also deactivate if the killer hooks someone else, I find that idea great actually.
I understand that it's frustrating that DS remains unchanged whereas Undying was nerfed (same goes for keys remaining the same while moris got nerfed), but I feel that the DS change is way trickier, the fact that the perk was changed a trillion times already speaks for itself imo. You need to make it so that it actually fulfills its purpose without survivors being able to abuse it. Simply reducing the timer is not it.
Object of Obsession and keys remaining unchanged are absolute bullshit though. Keys should simply let only the key-holder escape through hatch, and OoO needs to be changed into something else entirely. These two things are much easier to fix imo, the devs have no excuse.
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Me as survivor: Literally stopped using DS because unless I was farmed off the hook I like to actively avoid the killer and heal up or do a relatively safe gen with a lot of progress on it etc
Me as killer: Survivors literally running at me while I’m chasing someone else, jumping in lockers, slow vaulting in my face, holding onto a gen for dear life and it only has 5% progression...
It’s like.. the vast majority of this stuff happens when they aren’t even on death hook and having it later could have actually either saved them or bought someone else a little extra time
This might be an unpopular opinion but an extremely good looper that knows how to use dead hard is much more powerful than DS will ever be.
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I love when people show their rank by saying “dont tunnel” to counter ds lol
60 seconds in a 8-13 minute game, especially the hectic last 2 or 3 minutes means you’ll probably just run into them again regardless. And survivor logic (with tears in their eyes) says “nooo dont tunnel me!!!! I dont care if you just chased and hooked another survivor while i just went to a gen immediately after my unhook or tryed healing right under my hook.... dont tunnel!!!!” Lol ive been called a tunneler when the dude literally runs into me a minute or 2 later.
Survivors just like to blame the killer for their lack of skill, bad choices or bad luck.
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DS is fine rn.
It wasn't in the past.
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I believe they deliberately took their sweet time with changing MoM when that came out. They wanted as many people to buy Ash before they destroyed that perk. Despite the fact a ton of people told them before it released that perk would break the game.
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Undying is STILL a great killer perk. It just removed the possibility of it jumping to every dull totem on the map. I personally do think they slightly went overboard it. It should be able to move totems twice instead of once. It also now carried stacks and still had the aura reading. Devour hope gamers are probably rock solid rn
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I found baffling how Pop got it's time nerfed but DS no. PGTW is an active perk, which means that for you to make use of it, you have to do something specifical that you would not prioritize in other circumstances. Now, when you have Pop, you have to stop everything you are doing to get some benefit from it. While DS is a passive perk which activates everytime you get unhooked so it should take less time to expire since you have to put no effort in using it.
Like, come on devs, think . You just need to think. It's not hard. Do they know how to think?
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Because it can only be used once per survivor.
Once.
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DS is going to need a very thorough change that still allows it to perform it's job as an antitunneling perk, taking away it's anti-tunneling effect even for a week or two would lead to chaos in the amount of killers tunneling survivors off hook like there's no tomorrow.
Undying on the other hand affected far more games and was actualyl a huge gamechanger for killers who didnt deserve to win and was a far more easy perk to change.
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It needs to be changed but is also a nessacary evil. Have you been in a non obsession lobby as survivor?
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Let me answer that, I'm not defending anything but the guy has a point, a 1 5 sec stun is just not 5 seconds to catch a survivor, it's about 17 seconds to re down that survivor if they just hold W, so not only survivors can do anything for 60 seconds if all 4 are using DS and you somehow manage to get hit by all 4 then that is more than one minute just to re down someone.
I have eaten 3 DS back to back with Nurse I was close to the 4th one but I was using nurse so I was able to end chases faster.
Just like how they mentioned grabbing a survivor doing a gen, it does happen sometimes I try to hit the survivor just to get bhvr'ed and grab the survivor forcing a DS stun.
Locker abuse for DS even when not tunneling, this needs to go in fact doing this makes a lot of players more mad than getting hit normally with DS.
So basically DS by itself can actually win games, let's not go to the DS + UB part.
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Because Camping and Tunneling are still in the game.
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Nice bait m8
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It really isn't but ok
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Just don’t tunnel in those 4 minute games where the guy with DS will be doing a gen in your face 4head.
It doesn’t matter if you are playing the most OP killers in the game. But if you are like me, and find pubstomping with brain dead killers like Nurse/Spirit/Huntress/etc boring, you will know exactly why a 5 second stun is crippling.
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I'm honestly amazed at the amount of ignorance in this thread. DS is nowhere near this unbeatable godhood perk that some people are making it out to be. Is it problematic at the top levels of play because of it's synergy with other perks? Sure, but the idea that every game is being lost because of DS is nonsense. There are plenty of ways to play around it and a lot of killers have ways of making the perk less effective even after being hit.
That being said, it does need a rework, but only to reinforce the idea of penalising hard tunnel rather than in it's current form. What some players conveniently like to ignore is that in nearly all situations where you're hooking regularly enough to get 2 other survivors and then get hit by the first survivors DS you're already steamrolling the game. 5 seconds (actually 3 seconds once you factor in the drop animation) is going to do ######### all. If the person is in a dead zone then the perk might as well be non existent. If you can slug even a couple of survivors then they'll lose DS, potentially unbreakable if they have it and you'll likely force the other 2 off the generators. Does that work in every situation? No, but it's a damn solid strategy most of the time.
There are too many killers who blame DS for their loss rather than poor decision making. Sure, it certainly makes a bad situation worse, but it doesn't suddenly cause you to go from comfortably winning to losing unless you really ######### up. What I'd like to see it changed to is a per hook state mechanic similar to what we have now but on a 30 second timer rather than 60. Maybe make it so that it cant be used from lockers? (not sure as 30 seconds goes pretty quick). Adding mechanics to disable it when interacting with generators, totems or healing another survivor is just ######### as that would be easy to exploit by temporarily switching targets.
The other option would be a diminishing return type mechanic where the killer becomes more resistant to DS the more they're hit with it. The problem here is if they make DS useless, particularly for lower levels of play then killers are going to tunnel with impunity. I know it, you know it and the devs know it as well.
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Spot the 2019+ killer mains who don't remember old DS.
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Those of us who have played DbD for a few years know how these devs operate. Survivors have always been the stronger side (generally speaking).
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In a "careful what you wish for" moment, everyone thrilled about the Undying nerf will be the ones complaining about the tokens carrying over as soon as these changes go into effect, as the potential of DH/Undying is HUGE and possibly worse than Ruin/Undying ever was.
With Ruin/Undying, you would KNOW Ruin was up almost immediately, so you either powered through gens (which combatted the combo if the killer couldn't pressure enough gens to force regression) or you searched for the totems and that was that.
Survivors who DON'T do totems but focus purely on powering through gens -- and that's a LOT of survivors out there (I always look for totems, to combat possible NOED, if nothing else) -- aren't going to be looking out for totems in their rush to finish gens. DH can be so powerful because you don't even know you're facing it until it's already hit 3 tokens and everyone is exposed. In it's current state, that usually leads to everyone jumping off of gens and searching frantically for a totem they had no warning was out there -- sometimes you can find it and salvage the game, but a lot of times it ends up with a killer snowball of instadowns and Moris that result in what looked like a win ending in a 4K.
With a guarantee that DH stays up for TWO totem breaks, though, it's practically a GG for a really good killer -- they'll lose gens early to those type of survivor teams, but they'll be able to likely wipe out a team before they can get to BOTH of the totems they'll need to. Killers in particular that can defend their totems (I'm thinking of a Hag or Trapper, where you might not be able to even get to the totem without being insta-downed) could be absolute monsters potentially with that combination. ANY killer who plays well overall may be able to end a game quickly in that type of situation.
Of course, the Devour change/nerf/etc. I'm sure will come shortly afterwards if this ends up being a new Meta, but we'll have to see how it plays out. Maybe DH will still be somewhat unreliable, but time will tell.
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You mean the old DS that let you use enduring to completely counter it or let you just juggle them to the hook?
Yeah, I’ll take that over a full minute of invincibility.
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OoO was changed, sort of. It was indirectly nerfed by adding the Undetectable status effect which made OoO less broken vs stealth killers like Wraith and Ghostface.
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That’s a total of 4 minutes immunity. 4.
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Omg yes give me back my wiggle ds so I can waste even more of your time
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the devs have specifically stated it is NOT an Anti-Tunneling perk... they have not classified it in ANY WAY! this classification was added by the players and no one seems to even want to acknowledge that the perk is being talked about in two ways, one way by the devs internally and omitted externally and the other is the players who will put words in the devs' mouth in order to try to make a point. it can be changed in any way the devs see fit but not the way the players see fit.
HOWEVER given that: it has been left in it's combo and broken state far longer than undying's combo. here is the key to look at undying NEEDS another perk in order to fully work, DS does not. so if you were to put DS and compare it to undying in it's utility DS wins hands down. Pair it with a perk say ruin then undying becomes an annoying thing that only affects killers that can keep heavy gen pressure (since ruin does not affect while working on a gen. DS how ever when paired with UB/Soul Guard/No Mither (yes even this) means that it is fully 1 minute of invincibility! period end of statement. Undying can not be weaponized, how ever DS can. I do not believe hell refuse to believe that the devs INTENDED (and they say that it was only indended to let the survivor get away) to let a survivor get unhooked, then run body blocking for their other friend and then get into a locker to FORCE the DS stun. this is why it is showing the dev's survivor sided view point. and why I will not be anytime soon purchasing anyoutfits, aurec cells or even using iri shards till I see this change. I am a 50/50 survivor-killer player and I am not happy with the bias here. I will buy the rift's battle pass because i don't do that till i hit 70 as I will get the same cells back and did not spend anything new. but i'm not going to spend my iri shards for outfits, because my time is valuable and thus is currency. i probably won't buy any with the current cells i have because i did spend good money to get those that I have. just really don't care I won't be telling anyone else to get the game or if i do i will tell them my point of view and let them decide as i can't stop them from buying how ever I will do my best to minimize what people I know pay out to get the game. I'm so over this.
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As a survivor main at r1, I recommend they nerf DS.
I'm tired of killers complaining about this, when I don't even use it. I want it nerfed so inferior survivor mains that rely on it, find other ways of playing. I don't play around with UB or DS, I see no problem nerfing it. A good survivor main wouldn't rely on it anyways.
So please, devs. As a survivor main, please nerf this. I want to see how survivors play w/o it. Thank you very much.
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Whatever the devs have said, it is the only perk stopping killers from tunneling with free reign whenever they decide they want easy games or when they are loosing to secure the win.
As much as people will say ds unbreakable is broken, it's not. There's a difference between a perk combo being "broken" and a perk combo having unwanted side effects, which is the case with ds. At the end of the day majority of ds's use is stopping tunneling, the unwanted side effect however is that sometimes killers will be hit by a ds even when they've hooked someone else and then gone and chased the ds survivor and downed them within 60 seconds.
That doesn't make the perk broken however because the amount of times it even comes into play in this inwanted scenario is very little. That is incredibly different to that of ruin undying ALWAYS coming into play whenever it is used, regardless of whether it is taken out early or not. Don't you remember old DS? THAT was an example of a broken perk because it is something which would practically stop you from getting hooks you deserved and force you to play incredibly differently. At the end of the day yes i agree i think ds needs to be looked at but does it need to be looked at as urgently as some other things in the game like undying? No. Why? Because the amount of times it's unwanted effects actually become a game changer are quite limited and there are always ways to play around it.
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If the survivor is still alive and has DS during the end game, that's on you. DS is mostly fine. I say reduce the timer to 45 seconds and disable it when entering a locker.
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1) I never said the perk DS was broken, the combination of it and others is what breaks it.
2) I also acknowledged that undying/ruin (especially) is annoying and needs to be looked at.
3) I never said that undying's change was breaking the perk what so ever and never denied a change would be good.
4) DS how ever on its own can give survivors an escape at end game because of hatch/gate and only two people left. hell I lost a game to DS recently because of this lost ALL 4 survivors to an escape because of DS play at the end of the game. one got out through the hatch becuase he crawled onto it and it forced me to pick him up instead of close the hatch and he ds'd me and hopped out the hatch right away. tell me that isn't broken.. ######### am I supposed to do at that point? wait 1 minute? when they all wait at the gate till he's there? yea it's got some changes to make it a fair perk.
5) ######### the definitions of tunneling and camping. why? camping is barely a thing anymore because you can swoop in and grab off the hook with BT and from any direction. no longer does face camping deny the unhook like it did. tunneling? why that is the killer's version of gen rushing. so remove your tool boxes, brand new parts and you'd see people tunneling less and less why? they won't need to put pressure by removing a combatant to slow gens down.
6) just because a perk makes an unwanted effect is a reason to review it, yet it has been perfectly and blatently ignored by the devs saying things are just right... bullcrap it's just right. every time a killer perk synergizes with another so easily it's nerfed, when a survivor perk synergizes with another so easily it's over looked. I'm not saying DS has to be changed drastically just the UNFUN aspect of DS needs to be removed, as does that of the DS/ub combo or other combo need to be removed. doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed into the ground but a change to make it less overbearing would be a nice nod by the devs to acknowledge the fact that survivors have been getting the lion's share of the buffs and killers the lion's share of the nerfs lately. in the patch information put out on the dev stream killers get minor buffs, major nerfs and one fair buff and survivors get nothing but buffs, even a buff that the killers get will buff the survivors! oh yea lets make something like that for the survivors... oh no that'd anger the survivors because only killers get buffs now!
this is why people are out raged. keys especially along with the offering to move the hatch are op and haven't been dealt with at all but moris were nerfed to the point of uselessness unless you're that much of a better killer than the survivors are. you are quick to point out how it's the only thing that can stop a tunnel.... no actually it isn't because the tunnel aspect of things start with the SAVE... you put the save when the killer is otherwise occupied and don't stay at the hook for any reason you will be very unlikely to be tunneled. stop making risky saves just because you have Borrowed Time! stop unhooking right after the killer hooks someone. or are you sooooo afraid that they will kill themselves on the hook that you have to get the 1000 points? I laugh at that thought.
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As a killer main, DS is fine. "Dont tunnel" and you won't eat a DS, it's pretty simple.
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It will never be anywhere near as bad as undying only allows your totem to respawn once and that's if they don't find undying first. You have a very thin safety net, but still a great on people that really like Devour Hope. I agree still very very very good, but not old ruin/undying good. At least in the hands of good killers against good survivors.
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Nerf the duration to 50 seconds. It's only a minor nerf and should be fine. It can only be used once per match. Some survivors don't even use it. I don't.
It's not really about DS, it's just a good SWF is already annoying and DS is just the cherry on top because they are using it agressively like staying on gens close to the killer.
Even if you nerf DS into the ground or rework it completely, a good SWF will still be frustrating to play against.
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This and the meaning of life, are the 2 big questions of the universe
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get good bro xD
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Ah yes the old "get good xD" You're the type to complain about noed and undying aren't you.
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The issue is killers can avoid tunneling and still get hit by it because the timer is so long - you can fully heal and do half a gen before the timer expires.
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@Almo @Peanits Are we going to hear anything about this or are we just going to ignore the clear bias as per usual.
5 survivor perk buffs
1 killer perk buff which is rarely used
The best gen defence heavily nerfed
and a few minor buffs to killers that needed more (wraith windstorm base - trapper with trapper bag base)
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Hook Survivor 1 with DS, Commit chase on Survivor 2, down hook, in the meantime, you get a notification of an unhook, you go to the notification, down and get DS. Thats not tunneling, thats being punished for being good.
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Better yet, when there is a locker next to a gen, you basically have to leave him alone with the gen, since there is no way to outplay a DS in a locker.
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