The Undying Nerf
Welp, we all saw this one coming. Everyone and their mother knew it would be nerfed, and everyone foresaw the backlash coming.
"survivor sided!"
"RIP Undying"
So-on, so-on. Let's make a few things clear.
Did Rundying deserve to be nerfed?
Yes. Yes, it did.
Yeah, you can give the "it only rewards you for applying pressure" reasoning which is true, but you're missing the point. With Tinkerer especially, killers like Blight, Spirit (with add-ons), Billy (all 4 of them left), can make gens impossible to get done because they can just zoom.
This was an ungodly strong combo on most killers. Even chase-oriented killers can benefit because they can easily force survivors off gens, letting them regress at an astounding rate with the only solution being to "do bones," meaning revealing your location to the killer if they're paying attention.
But hey, it's not like the top/high tier killers are that chase-oriented, right? Just a few like Oni, a really good Pyramid Head, Spirit, and the godforsaken Nurse! It's already nearly impossible to beat the last two if the killer is good with them, Rundying was just salt in the wound.
Why not DS-Unbreakable?
Yeah, the fact this combo hasn't been addressed yet is absurd but by now, the devs know, and if they don't, then they're clearly not listening. Either way, complaining about it won't do anything.
Undying is useless now!
Um... no? It guarantees that your hex will last longer, meaning the survivors need to cleanse 2 totems before it's gone. That's pretty big. It's definitely weaker but by no means worthless or even "bad" now.
Typical survivor main!
If that's your counter to anything, then go. Just go. That's not an argument. That's a, "you're X so what you said is invalid!" which is basically a child throwing a tantrum. If you're able to read, then you're old/wise enough to be better.
Comments
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More survivor bias. Gut undying and shadow nerf moris but still no key nerf?
“The survivors gotta cleanse 2 totems now” when that’s still probably going to take less than a minute on some maps. Especially the older ones where they literally spawn in the open.
Hex perks are back to being useless outside NOED and map offerings.
Gen control play style is gone. Back to tunneling and camping every match.
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Hey OP I found that killer main throwing a tantrum cause he’s upset he can’t rely on Ruin undying anymore
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Than can we get the mori back in exchange for undying?
Why u gotta Rob the killers of everything?
Survivors can keep keys, but killers get continuous nerf.
And watch the entitled survivors try to justify this act and bash me for it.
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And came after every match crying about DS ... GL.
People with your mentality is the reason so much DS+UB uses.
I tried to insert my brother into the game and he deinstalled ( rank 20 ofc ) after being tunneled 4 games in a row.
Maybe he will get a chance if he had DS+UB to play a little more and not waiting 5 minutes to get out in 1.
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I personally just think it's a bit over-nerfed. I would have been happy losing the aura reading and getting just two charges out of it instead of three. I completely agree it was too powerful, though I also understand how gen speeds can be frustrating and why people used the combo so much. That said, much like UD+DS, some people just used the combo to be turbo jerks instead of using it to deal with actual problems they encountered.
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Deinstalled? Uninstalled*
Also blame the devs, they dont care about tunneling. They just tell people to do gens if a killer is camping/tunneling
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LOL sorry english is not my main.
Imo Hooks are bad design and so DS.
Once you were hooked that should be a chance to play more like PH cage do (sometimes).
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I don’t even use it in the majority of my builds. I’m just pointing out the bias.
Survivors got a month heads up to spam instant medkits and moris got shadownerfed. Now half my games are infested with keys and I bet the devs give people a big warning those will be nerfed too.
Killers have to constantly pay for good addons when survivors get the strongest parts of their kits loaded into their perks for free every match.
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I don't think any sensible killer would disagree with Undying needing to be changed. I think killers in general just get frustrated that anything that is deemed powerful gets looked at and changed much faster than anything on the survivors side. Dev's had time to nerf mori's into the ground (justified, but it really should be base-kit and no longer an offering) and they had time to change Undying, yet killers have been complaining about how survivors abuse DS for over a year and all they get is silence from the devs and belittlement from survivors.
It's hard not to agree that the devs prioritize the fun of survivors more than killers.
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Are you going to ignore the buffs to clown and wraith?
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Whoa he’s invisible past 24m wow what change, still easy to see when you need to see him and loud af. Plus doesnt fix his core issue being he’s very very add on reliant.
Clown they coulda just changed his reload speed over night, 95% of clowns will never use the yellow bottles
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No, I won't.
Clown is weird so I'd need to see how it works.
Wraith is nice but not enough. His add-on reliance hasn't been addressed, so they addressed 1 glaring issue while ignoring the rest.
Trapper was more of a simplification than a buff but still nice for Trapper mains out there. Now, if they made brown bag base....
Edit: somehow misread "you" as "we." I'm an idiot
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You're supposed to ask for purple bag so they can give us brown bag and tell us they listened to our request.
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yes cuz that's not really much of a buff and nobody cares about those 2. it's like taking $100 bill but giving back $20 and telling them to be satisfied with it.
it's not a fair exchange. mori+undying =/= clown/wraith ....
what about the keys? keys was in exchange for mori. not clown or wraith.
than here comes undying...
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I'm not sure if anyone was even paying attention to the fact that you can now run Devour Hope or Huntress' Lullaby with Undying while keeping all of the tokens. People keep complaining that Undying was a nerf, but they're ignoring the fact that while they nerfed one aspect of it, they buffed another.
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True, but the current killer meta is regression and Ruin is a regression perk, so they pretty much did nerf it in the eyes of the community.
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It’s still junk. Ruin undying was good because it worked straight off the bat. Even with ruin undying a totem being cleansed in the first ~30 seconds of the game wasn’t uncommon.
All it did was protect you from some of the games very obvious totem spawns sometimes.
You spawn in and your ruin dies before you can even walk to it. Not an uncommon scenario, but luckily undying made it less outrageous.
But now you pay half your perks to ~maybe~ get a good totem spawn? That’s 4 DSs and 4 unbreakables worth of perk slot.
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Yeah but the devs see the current meta as being unhealthy, and that's why they're changing it. They're trying to make sure perks aren't doing your job for you.
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ppl rather keep the way things were. nobody wants a stupid bone when they were use to eating meat.
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Regardless they are still buffs
95%? Highly unlikely,
10% Speed increase is a huge buff, you can even use it to gain speed to pressure gens.
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I'm honestly glad I stopped playing so seriously.
It's just way too much already as is to try against a team of any calibur for killers that just want fun instead of a sweaty game.
I literally never use this combo unless I have to get challenges done; and if it's getting changed - now I have little to no help simply doing daily stuff or even low tier Rift challenges.
This game turned from fun to try hard and it makes me sad.
I'll just say again..
Casual mode & Competitive mode? Instead of giving insensitive to be even more try hard since higher ranks will possibly soon give great rewards.
Still sad that my Xbox has died and I can't come to play this wonderful bug of a game, no matter what.
I'm odd.
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The main issue that survivors should have had with the combo was map design. Sometimes, it was actually impossible to cleanse a totem because they couldn't find it, or was in too bad of a spot for them to cleanse.
I liked to use ruin undying since it applied pressure off the bat by making them have to look for ruindying instead of doing gens.
I didn't need it to win. I could have used pop and would have won. But I don't want to feel like I'm losing when I can't find a claudette on Dead Dawg Saloon, and lose 2 gens looking for a survivor. I wasn't even looking for one survivor, I was looking for a survivor. I couldn't find them, not because the map was too big, but because the bushes are so thick!
Survivors don't have many good maps for them left. They have Mother's Dwelling, which was barely changed, Brother Campbell's Asylum, and Ormond. These maps are only good for survivors because they're big maps. That is instantly countered by the best killers in the game, mobility killers.
How does this tie back to Ruindying? Well, it shows that the biggest strengths that survivors have over killers is the map. If the survivor gets a map like Dead Dawg Saloon, they know that their biggest strength is being able to hide in the bushes not the size. Map Design is quite literally the problem with the game. It can be too varied on some maps, or too unvaried on some maps. Totem spawns are much like this. They can be in the worst possible location, being out in the open on cornfield maps and the asylum. If totem spawns were more consistent (and undying didn't have the aura reading) survivors would have nothing to complain about. It would be similar to old ruin, where it would be cleansed very early into the game. Instead, Ruindying would stay in the game for 40 seconds longer than the average time old ruin was in the game.
All in all, map design is the biggest problem in the game. If it was made better, this game would be top tier. Other than the extremely toxic community and very anti consumer payment system.
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- He's talking about the bias of the devs, not OP
- He actually made a point, he didn't try to use "survivor main" as his main argument
- You're using the killer main as your argument
- Being able to stop generators is a necessity. Gens get done way too quick at times if the killer doesn't have ruin or any other anti-gen perks
- If you want to try and call me a killer main, try it. I have 16 prestiges on survivor and only one on killer and I still highly believe that there are way too many broken perks/items on survivor meanwhile killers are getting nerfs left and right
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I definitely agree with this. I play survivor way more than I play killer and I'm still scratching my head at why things like keys, gen rushing toolboxes, and new styptic agents are still in the game. In my opinion, items have way too much influence on the game and your loadout highly determines your chance of survival. I understand that this might make the game boring, but balance should be the main priority at this point and I'm sure that they can find other ways to bring in entertainment.
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Undying needed a nerf and they nerfed the rng factor, so it's a good nerf for me
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I thought NOED was the worse hex perk? That's what argument you've been driving into the nerf noed discussions.
Your opinion has changed? Or do you have double standards?
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Undying is trash now and you won't see it anymore.
So be happy about the nerf and the long queues.
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Wow you really needed to necromance a post just to prove me wrong?
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DS is getting nerfed though so we’re even
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I'm actually surprisingly still seeing ruin undying quite a bit. It always makes me chuckle when I unknowingly run by a dull totem and the hex undying notification pops up. It didn't need that extra kick in the nuts
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It's not trash. They weakened It's only use and add other uses to it.
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Not really.
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Like what? You get more uses out of it, when you take Haunted Grounds instead.
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Devour. By the time they realize the danger it's too late. That's not even accounting for the fact they still need to break Ruin twice if you run it. Honestly people are so dramatic, but Ruin/Undying is still strong.
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Haunted Grounds does a better job at protecting Devour. Why? Because first of all, it doesn´t alert survivors on every dull totem, that there is a hex perk active (Undying does that) and second, it gives at least the exposed status.
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Undying getting nerfed was acceptable but again were back to the question was it done well? Ah no undying should at the very least not spawn in at the start of the game. When undying is in play it should only appear after its protected your hex perk once. Having two active totems means increasing the chances of the hex being spotted.
Also the tone of stop complaining about ds unbreakable they know. It does nothing kinda assumes
A. Legion didn't happen. A concentrated effort by the community to nerf legion pushed out his nonesense deep wound mechanic and pressured the devs to act fast on patching out his los deep wound nonesense.
B. Keys still are unchanged which is the result of a lack of consistent pressure to focus the teams effort on changing and balancing this above instead of making a few qol improvements to perks that no one is going to use anyways. Or nerfing perks like pop which was never a problem in the first place.
C. Looking at making other perks better fill the spot of undying and opening up killer perk pool options by removing the m1 basic hit condition. Look at huntress and tell me how many perks are dead/bloodweb filler simply because they have zero synergy with hatchet hits. This is a problem for demo pig etc. Surge could have been buffed, sloppy could have been reverted alas instead we just get these changes that nerf only instead of opening options.
Side note funnny how everyone said devour hope and undying was gonna destroy dbd. In conclusion the nerf was handled terribly and if you'll look at the past few patches its be disproportionately killer nerfs bar survivor desync movement which wasnt intended. Finally we'll be seeing ds changes soon so hopefully killer players will catch a break.
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Typical survivor main!
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So a good nerf results in a weak perk? Undying is supposed to protect your hex perk why is itself active as a hex perk immediatly. Wouldnt it have been smarter to have it only activate post your first hex perks destruction.
This logic of it annoyed me so any result is good regardless of whether or not the perk still fufills its role is very silly. Espicially when you consider gen slowdown perks have been hit continously. Pop got nerfed for some reason, thanatophobia is a nerf to everyone that isn't plague, finally undying is the last perk.
Gen regression perk options are very weak as is. Could have at least improved surge or some other regression perk.
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That's not survivors fault that keys haven't been nerfed yet, the devs said it will come, but they haven't done it yet lol that's on them, not the players.
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they're nerfing DS, planning on nerfing Keys and planning on reworking OOO, the mori change came first because all it required was a number change, the devs are simply doing what is easier to do first before doing the more complicated things
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Never used Undying as a killer. Never needed to in order to have a good match.
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Ruin + Undying is still frequently used by Killers I face.
I for myself like combining Undying with Haunted Grounds. It allows me to still have Haunted triggered twice instead of three times as it was before. And against Hag everyone does cleanse glowing totems because it might be a Devour Hope.
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To me, as long as my team mates arent get caught and fast down. Ruin Undying is painfully weak vs me, because I always equip Small game just because how much I hate sit on Gen for longer time.
There were many times I took down Ruin Undying in the first 3mins. Only 2 floors map like Midwich & the Game are the pain to find totems.
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That's why the survivor queues are long. Nerfing seems like a punishment. Whether it's killer nerf or survivor nerf.
I'd rather them buff the niche perks and let the community come up w interesting counter builds.
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Rng is a major factor that influences the game. From map layouts to bear trap attempts, to 4% and totem spawns. Undying isn't weak at all, and it's role now is simple: if a killer failed to protect his hex, they have a second chance.
Old undying was rng and generally hated. Think about it:
You find a totem, it's either ruin or undying (50/50). You cleanse it (12 seconds I think, without adding thana) and now you either destroyed undying and have to search for ruin or destroyed ruin and you gotta search for a different totem. So minimum you waste 24 seconds + distance traveled to destroy ruin undying, without adding thana or the possibility of a chase. Now, in the other scenario there are 4 totems left, 2 are lit. You find and cleanse one of them and again it's 50/50 if you need to search again for it. So let's do the math here shall we?
Minimum time to destroy the undying+ruin combo was and is: 24 seconds + distance traveled. It doesn't sound like a lot, but if one survivor isn't doing gens, that could cause a snowball on the killer side, because: one survivor is searching totems, one is chased, one is on hook and one is going for the rescue = not a single survivor is doing gens.
Maximum time to destroy the combo is: 60 seconds + distance travel which give the killer free pressure and possibly a snowball effect.
So why shouldn't it be changed? It removed the end factor and kept it to the bare minimum, whilst having the ability to transfer stacks, do you know how powerful that is?
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Then get rid of the reveal and keep the replacements.
It is useless now. it even tells survivors you have it when you go near a dull totem so they know you have devour.
They trashed it. They didn't even keep the random spawn so if you spawn near them its gg. Undying should not be a hex and just randomly switch the totem once at the bare minimum.
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Yes the hex stack retention passive change is so powerful that now hex undying is now run with, nothing except ruin. I tested this change and it didnt matter because undying increases the chance of the perk being spotted and you have to find a hex perk that can net immediate value and make up for the investment of two perk slots. Which there are few to none. Also any survivor worth there salt will never let you get anything out of devour bar maybe one insta down if your lucky.
For everyones talk of lullaby and devour hope it amounted to doing nothing since totems rng and ease of destruction only becomes a problem when undying is hitting 4+ totem resets. Also no you cant protect your totem that is a foolish thought to even think about. If a survivor finds yout totem everyone will from that point on know its location since lets be real here the majority of players are at least grouped with one other player on comms and most player will direct other members of its location with general pointing. Assuming the killer jas some impact on its survival often plays into losing gens at an accelerated rate.
All of what you fear exisits already. It called corrupt intervention no you dont have to cleanse it but for all its threatening potential it hasn't broken the game. A killer getting pressure early is not unhealthy I'd argue the lack of pressure early is a massive cause for dbds imbalances. Killer games can end immediatly with one bad chase at the start of the game. Seriously think about that. If you don't get something early pn you be put so far behind its nearly impossible to claw your way back.
That's it your done. There is no end to the number of survivor perks that can mitigate and halt a killers snowball. Ds, unbreakable, adrenaline, even exhaustion perks mitigates and hinder pressure at pivotal moments. These perks provide absurd ppwer and most improtantly are fit for purpose.
Yet a killer forcing totem interaction early on is considered broken. This makes no sense. When you as a team can spawn next to gens on large maps rng that is not a small percentage then you cant honestly tell me survivors shouldnt be pressured early on to remove a ruin twice?
If a killer snowballs that on the survivors for making those mistakes. A killer success is ultimately dependant on how many mistakes a survivor makes and how competent the killer can exploit this. The early game for killers need to be revised and since the devs refuse to bake this into the core gameplay we should at least get perks to fix this. Undying was meant to do this but its ease of destruction renders that mute as well.
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You have some severe mistakes there bud.
"Also no you cant protect your totem that is a foolish thought to even think about."
What? I thought that the killer's job was to multitask, as a hybrid player I have protected my totems in my games, even if they know where they are. A killer's job is to also keep an eye out for their totems. A perk shouldn't just magically protect your totems. You should earn it.
" lets be real here the majority of players are at least grouped with one other player on comms and most player will direct other members of its location with general pointing. "
I dunno chief, the last time the devs released information proves the exact opposite. If you want to I can search the exact photo they released.
"All of what you fear exisits already. It called corrupt intervention no you dont have to cleanse it but for all its threatening potential it hasn't broken the game. "
This isn't a fear, is a necessity. Corrupt is arguably the strongest killer perk for 2 reasons, it forces early killer-survivor interaction at mid to high ranks and gives the killer a bit of time on the early game. This lasts for 180 seconds and then doesn't reactivate ever. So, here's what the high level survivors do in tournaments, mind-blowing I know.
They just don't reveal themselves and wait for corrupt to pass. Because they know that if they waste all 3 minutes, the killer has 3 perks left.
Does it work with the old undying/ruin? No, otz actually explained why. With undying/ruin being released the killers is tournaments started to smash the competition easily, why? Because even if the survivors hide with corrupt, you have to deal with the combo, but you can't stay simply hidden can you? Since the killer will patrol. So what they do is not going for totems, because if they're unlucky they wasted precious gen time. So they tried to power through and it resulted in most loses. And the killer doesn't even have to do anything to gain that pressure, the mere existence of the combo demolished high level of play.
".If you don't get something early pn you be put so far behind its nearly impossible to claw your way back."
Again you're wrong, because all gens are done doesn't mean the game is over, comebacks exist. Hag is the best killer example I can give, with hag you make a web and the survivors are forced to interact with it. If they decide to genrush and not harsh the hag, they are in deep trouble because every chase will end in an instant. Endgame builds and perks also exist. And killer powers interacting with endgame like pigs. So, again, you're simply wrong. Not a single high rank survivor will say that the game is over once the survivors have one or two gens left.
"There is no end to the number of survivor perks that can mitigate and halt a killers snowball. Ds, unbreakable, adrenaline, even exhaustion perks mitigates and hinder pressure at pivotal moments"
You kinda instinctively result in whataboutism but let me focus on that one as well. Ds gets nerfed so I won't mention it, adrenaline needs to activate in endgame and it is still counterable, exhaustion perks are always expected in high level of play and they get countered if you know what to do when you know they have a certain exhaustion perk (example: dead hard, you bait deadhard early and they have no exhaustion perk, or equip addons such as the toxic on huntress).
"Yet a killer forcing totem interaction early on is considered broken. "
I never said that an early totem interaction is the problem, it's that it last the whole game in worst case scenario. Also, undying did many things at once, such as the aura reveal, which forced survivors to lose-lose situations.
"This makes no sense. When you as a team can spawn next to gens on large maps rng that is not a small percentage then you cant honestly tell me survivors shouldnt be pressured early on to remove a ruin twice?"
Removing a ruin twice in the best, and honestly the only scenario after the patch. Large maps need to be fixed, and they will according to the devs. They have made large map adjustments after all in previous patches. And I also think that spawning close to gens is kinda stupid, I think survivors should either spawn separately on the same side of the map or, preferably, together on the edge of the map or deadzone. The survivors should be forced to interact with the killer, not the totems, the secondary objective.
"If a killer snowballs that on the survivors for making those mistakes. A killer success is ultimately dependant on how many mistakes a survivor makes and how competent the killer can exploit this. The early game for killers need to be revised and since the devs refuse to bake this into the core gameplay we should at least get perks to fix this. Undying was meant to do this but its ease of destruction renders that mute as well."
Common mistake I see a lot in the community and Scott actually debunked this. By saying the killer is simply looking for the survivors to make a small mistake, and that's how they win the game is really untrue. Then youtubers and streamers like otz are good players, because they capitalize on survivor mistakes more often? No, they outplay them. By saying that the killer just outplays because he saw a mistake in the survivor side, completely negates the chance of the killer actually knowing what they're doing.
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Defense of totems is one of the first mistakes you can make as a killer. If you focus to much on defending your totem you will lose the game and any survivor will know that simply ignoring the totem and pushing distant gens will often crush killers who focus to much on protecting there totems. Multi tasking is easy to say when you have high mobility killers but what of the low mobility killers. I'll get on to large maps later because woo wee is that a major issue. If your totems is found you can try and use it to get some pressure spreading damage out but again you will lose the totem. Plenty of players know this that's why many experience players acknowledge its inevitable it's gonna be taken down.
On the subject of comm's and swf where is this data. The inability to access this data is rather infuriating. How is its parsed do we account for difference in ranks (incoming rank doesn't matter even though that yellow ranked meg is self caring in a corner). If I want to check the data on how a champion is performing in lol or dota I can easily bring up sites and get the information there yet dbd tends to restrict that information. I don't care how the greens and yellows are doing I'm interested in what red ranks and how players with higher win rates are doing with x perks and x add-ons.
You used the hag as an example but her counterplay admittedly much more tricky has some glaring holes. If every player keeps deliberately messing with her web she falls apart as a killer. It not easy but that again is why she's one of the better killers I acknowledge this. Flashlight will horribly mess her up but that's just a given. A lot of killers who are less trap based and lack that snowball potential think wraith, pig, bubba, ph etc do will struggle to claw back games. Killers bouncing back from a poor start is not the norm and the point I'm making is that the odds are stacked against you when going up against competent players. Max no of pallets in play, breakable walls are in effect creating infinites structures like shack are available and are at max power.
Now I agree undying needed a nerf but your opening sentence implied you were happy with it as is. Even though it is not fit for its purpose. There were two ways to go with making undying effective.
A. Its loses its aura reading entirely and now instead of two totems being in play there is the one totem you have active. Upon destruction another dull totem lights up so your chance of a hex totem being broken is reduced thus prolonging the ruin or hex perk effect.
B. Hex undying triggers a maximum of two times no more so instead of breaking 4 or 5 ruins you would have to deal with 3 totems a much fairer and reasonable number.
Finally whataboutism is dressing denial of an issue as a positive. No these all exist in the same ecosystem of play this all matters. Scott even engaged in the concept he talked about when pop got nerfed and question why is ds remaining as is. There are two sides to dbd if you reduce the power of one side you need to consider the other so the scales of imbalance don't get horribly mangled. If the dev's have a change that's gonna hurt one side at the very least withhold it until both sides receive a prepared nerf or changes that should keep the balance of power in check.
Map adjustments? Are we not paying heed to the fact that nearly every map from legion onwards (bar reworked maps) has been a large map. You can adjust maps all you like but when they keep making massive complexes I really have to question if they are being genuine or just lying to our face. I present all of these issues and the answer is its being addressed be patient meanwhile haddonfield is still the most disgusting piece of trash to grace dbd despite not receiving the necessary fix with years of time to improve it. The claim of we addressed the large fences long ago was a blatant lie. Since then no changes.
Finally as survivor to get a comparison across you are a control player your goal is to outlast the killer which is the aggro role. The survivor has a map with a wide access of control tools(structures). The aggro killer player has to navigate the control tool's used by the survivor to get the hook. Killer skill expression is down to the survivor making a misplay, either mispositioning or choosing to use a tile that is unfavorable or is lacking the necessary defenses. The killer chases the survivor this is the nature of the role the killer can herd or manipulate certain misplays but its up to the survivor to make those decision's. Your last sentence makes no sense. How can I not know what I'm doing if I'm deliberately trying to manipulate the survivor into taking an action I know will be unfavorable. Yes you have agency as a killer player but the agency is very limited by a lack of good stall tools(that are being continuously nerfed e.g thantophobia, pop and undying.
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All survivors had to do was bring a map and undying was useless.
But no, they all want to run 4 second chance perks + a medkit so they can heal themselves without disrupting gen progression.
Anything that causes survivors to deviate from the bog standard meta must be nerfed.
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