The Devs Are Not Biased Against Killers
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There ate several issues with your statements it started around the match making where you said " if one side is unfun que time would become crazy" (as it is now 15s que for killer almost all day 5-6m que for surivor) then you go to talk about ques are taking so long and your are right about how some of the updates are better for killer but it took the span of 1 year to remove insta blinds 2 years to fix pallet vacuum 3 for infinits and nearing 5 for gen speed things that they can tamper with on the ptb (it's been a thing since Myers came out btw) to get real info on major issues that could of been fixed in 2 years and then when the game is mostly balanced they could squash bugs
And the whole ruin nerf where in the tutorial do you see anything about hexs and if they are supposed to be high risk / reward why do they keep nerfing hexs and not the no risk big reward
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Mic Drop
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Thanks! If nothing else it'll be useful to have links to the stat drops all in one place :)
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I addressed this in my post - There are lots of factors at play, namely performance while playing killer being worse on consoles and low-end PCs, which already struggle with DBD. If balance were the issue you'd think that queue times would have been miserable in the past when kill rates were lower, but they really weren't so bad (at least on PC).
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How is your queue time op?
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In terms of survivor perks it's because none of the more recent ones are good or solve the issue of camping, tunneling, and slugging which happens quite often and those playstyles are basekits and survivors are required to run perks that counter act those. What should survivors run deja vu? It won't help against stuff that I mentioned. I tend not to use those perks but there are times where it feels like I have too.
Also for swf what's the issue with people playing with their friends? My friends and I play but we don't bully we just play to have fun but we also all just happen to be good. People shouldn't be punished for playing with their friends
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What I don't get, though, is why would nerfing Ruin lead to all of those behviors when those behaviors have been advantageous for killers all along. It doesn't seem likely that killers would have just missed a meta like that. My guess is that slugging has gone up in large part because of DS now being tied to the hook timer; it feels like we just replaced juggling with slugging.
If killers were able to win while feeling laid back on the back of Ruin, and neither side really liked Ruin (survivors for the really strong effect and killers for the inconsistency), Ruin definitely needed the nerf/change lol. It should ideally give competitive and engaging matches on both sides. I didn't feel like killer was quite so laid back back then, but then again I also didn't have Ruin on most of my killers and I wasn't as experienced either. I definitely saw plenty of moris before then though lol. Could be a rank thing, maybe.
I don't think the issue with Undying was that people didn't like looking for totems. It was just OP against solo queue, which is the opposite of what the game needs. I would have been fine with them keeping the old Undying so long as survivors got the cursed status effect once they started cleansing a totem. That way Soul Guard could be a solid counter to the meta and it would also give solo queue players a chance to know Undying was up in the first place. You basically had to guess before, and even once you were pretty sure Undying was in play, you couldn't ever be sure it was actually gone because you were never cursed. It was just kind of a mess. I do think that the nerf was an awesome change though, since now it's still good with Ruin without being OP, but it's also quite strong with token-based hexes.
Btw if you're talking about the Otz video where he said not to cleanse the totems, I think that's mostly because of Undying. If you could just cleanse Ruin and have it out of the game, it's 100% worth it to cleanse because the 14 seconds you spend on the totem are probably way fewer than the amount of time Ruin would take off gens over the match if you didn't cleanse it. Given that with Undying you could very feasibly waste like two minutes of your time searching for totems, cleanse Ruin three times, attract the killer a few times with your aura, and still be cursed with Ruin now on a really well-hidden totem, though, you're definitely better off just having your whole team stick to gens. You'll lose some time to regression but not as much as you would have totem hunting, especially if you're with teammates who are also committing to rushing gens. The one exception in my mind is if you're in a SWF, Ruin is in play, and you identify two different hex totems. That way you're guaranteed to get the Undying (assuming no triple hex build) and you have a 50/50 chance of getting the Ruin with it, which seems like a fair trade for 28 seconds of cleanse time imo. I just wouldn't go out of my way.
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Lots to say here:
* I don't think gen times are a problem and I think increasing them by more than a few seconds would be a large and unneeded killer buff.
* I addressed the queue time issue in my post. If one side is getting screwed balance-wise at the expense of the other side and it's not fun to play them, long queues and eventually a dead game, if they don't fix things, is the result. That doesn't mean that long queues are always caused by the game being unbalanced and/or unfun for one side. In this case I don't think that's the main issue.
* The game was extremely unbalanced at launch and is still quite frankly a bug-ridden mess. I don't think the rate of change has anything to do with pro-survivor bias. There are plenty of longstanding survivor side pet issues that either haven't been addressed yet or have taken years to address as well. I think they're just more focused on making new content than there are on polishing what they already have. That's not how I would run the game, but I think they've concluded that releasing new content will keep the player base higher, bring in more money, and keep the game alive for longer.
* The tutorial is reallllly bare bones lol, some things you just gotta figure out by playing :)
* I wouldn't say that hexes are just being nerfed. Lullaby was buffed a few patches ago so that it doesn't give the cursed status effect until the killer gets one token, for example. And, while the Undying/Ruin combo is definitely weaker now, all token-based hex perks were effectively buffed with this change to Undying. Undying/Devour is going to be extremely good now, esepcially on maps with good totem spawns and with killers like Hag that can guard totems well.
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I know right
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Oof what a headache to read this thread. There is so much going on here it’s hard to know where to start.
To OP, what a well thought out post! I’m enjoyed reading it. I think your points are well articulated and though through. It’s kind of annoying to see when other people gloss over what you have made clear in your post.
Again I agree with this! I highly doubt dcs and suicides are skewing the numbers THAT much. Sure they exist and affect the numbers but I don’t think they affect it that drastically. And the trend line still points to the devs being or at least attempting to be fair.
I don’t play enough killer to say I understand the sentiment of killers and I definitely don’t want to invalidate how others may feel about the experience. By all means if you feel that something is unfair you should raise it to the devs!
But I am just adding my 2 cents to this conversation as a new player who didn’t go through the supposedly nightmarish history of imbalance in this game, that the game seems pretty fair in its current state. Hey it’s not perfect but the devs are balancing killer’s swf and solo experience, in an asymmetrical game. Frankly I’m not sure I could do better, and I’m still having fun on an unoptimised switch version of the game.
So while many people’s opinions on this game are valid and should continue to be aired, I personally am grateful that the devs have done such a good job so far that keeps so many people playing.
I actually think the blood point system says something about the mindset of the devs. You don’t have to escape or get kills to earn BP. So many actions earn you BP. Even if everyone got killed or escaped, we all get BP and the devs have made it possible we all gets lots of it and pip no matter the outcome. So we are not really required to get kills or escape unless we put pressure on ourselves.
I think this is a mindset I can get behind.
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Well this statement is a lie..
What do i mean by this? Even if you're a Perfect Nurse / spirit. You still do not win against 100% Top tier survivors. and that's IF you don't mess up the blink / phases. Trust me. the BoTB showed this.. The devs are survivor Bias, and it 100% shows with the Unneeded Undying nerf.
Edit: forgot to mention that, the Killrates are completely Skewed with alot of survivors dcing / suiciding on hooks, so you Can't base the killrates on how good a killer is nowadays
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Lets take note of the NOTABLE changes that were good for killer while detrimental for survivor. Map size, infinite, Insta heal. My point in all this os its kinda BS killers complain because DS doesnt get a change yet all the big changes that helped this game nerfed survivors basically. I havent played in 2018 so I know nothing of the vacuum pallets or how there was no entity blocker or bloodlust. So you can say my comment carries no weight without naming EVERYTHING. But in reality the main changes that made this gamr healthier was basically a killer buff and people literally take that for granted. It so stupid.
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your comment here carries weight but you also missed that the infinites were put back in with the map reworks by putting breakable walls where the openings were placed. new killers will not know which of these walls to break or not break to give the best advantage. Also this allows people to continue doing what they were doing for years before that. so a short lived map buff like that is a very minor buff. I mentioned the insta heals, but there are still insta heals in the game, you just have to be careful as killers have to be in order to keep themselves from being steam rolled. Map size is not a full addressment, as most of the maps that were lage to begin with ended up stating large (mother's dwelling) and lery's went from killer sided to survivor sided with the adjustments. so the map angle is a wash and it didn't move much in one direction or another.
I specifically brought up october 2018 and later and not before because i too have little knowledge of most of that I will disagree that changes making the game healthier were killer buffs. I pointed out several that were not healthy to killers and gave survivors a decided edge in the game. I did not say the only reason for the devs bias towards survivor as it is currently. Insta heals were being used in ways they were not ment to be because so many people would use them on themselves instead of on others in the game and that's when the devs went to change insta heals. Because survivors complained they were being left on the ground while they had instaheals . so the devs acted and nerfed insta heals.
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Hmm good points. Mothers dwelling is a trash map regardless and lerys was always good for survivors it depends on the windows that are open tho. I dont count the old infinite as infinite but I do agree at lower ranks its kinda different. So I wouldn't say its a nerf to killer but a nerf to low rankers. While infinite being removed is a nerf to everyone ya know? But hell I do see why its problematic tho. I wish the breakable walls were put smarter but I also disagree with people when they say they are a loss to killers because one pallet break doesn't end the game nor does a door because once that door is gone the loop is gone for 4 people which basically minuses loop time overall by at least 1 minute. But that depends on the use of wherever the door was too.
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But then why dose it take them years to change a clearly very strong surivor metta but months to change the killer metta like it dosent matter and they nerfed the back up perk pop then the main stream of ruin undying for basically 4 years the metta had been anything to slow gens wonder why and yet they keep nerfing it I was ok with the ruin nerf because there were 2 new gen delay perks pop and corrupt but I do t want to run the same perks every game so I dont get stomped just to have fun I want to be able to play Michael with dark devotion infectious bbq and idk nurses or Franklinins but I have to give a perk just to give a chance to make the game last long enough to get a 2 or 3 k
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In 2016, the active ranking system was the Victory Cube which required 2 kills to secure a pip. If you got more than that, you pip so 55% kill rate means at least a safety pip (guaranteed) if not a pip.
Secondly, in 2016 we only had 5 Killers so 20% pick rate is actually the average. We had Nurse, Billy, Wraith, Trapper and Myers (october) and towards the end, we got Hag aswell (december).
Additionally, back in those days Trapper was actually pretty strong considering the circumstances (meat tree infinite, trapping underneath the hook, no minimum distance between traps,...).
So comparing the old days with todays BS seems like nonsense to me. We all remember that one match where Mathieu Cote played Hag at a korean event? This match proved to me that the developers have no idea of what's going on in the game. People complained about insta flashlights for months before that happened and no one of the devs cared about it just until Mathieu Cote faced those flashlights himself - and two days later they already got nerfed.
That's a perfect example of the "doesn't happen that often / never happened to any of us so it can't be that bad!" mentality they have.
- that only happens rarely
- that only happens in very high skilled matches
- that only happens under specific circumstances
- that only happens when you're unlucky
There is always an excuse to justify "it doesn't need a fix because it doesn't happen often".
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The difference between Rank 1 Killer and Rank 1 Survivor is that Killers actually had to get there themselves, they had no one to carry them while I can easily carry a 20 hours noob to Rank 1 just by outplaying the Killers myself (or with my 2 friends in a 4x SWF). There is barely any skill requirement to rank up as Survivor. The side effect of that? Even low skilled Killers manage to rank up because they face those bad Survivors and eat them once their friends are offline.
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I appreciate it dude! Totally agree with your sentiment.
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Tournaments are not a great assessment of balance for a lot of reasons. Here are a few:
* Until MMR is in place there's no good way to know what the skill of the players involved was.
* Perks, maps, items, add-ons, skins, offerings, and even play styles (e.g. camping, slugging, repairing while injured) are often banned in tournament play.
* Win conditions vary widely in tournaments. For example, many base wins off of BP earned, but some might care more about emblems, survival, etc.
I already addressed your edit in the post - the actual percentage might be skewed by various factors, but the trend line is far less likely to be skewed in the same way.
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Breakable walls are not infinites and there are no insta-heals in the game either unless you want to count For the People :) Mother's Dwelling was not changed yet like many of the other maps iirc, which is why it's still large. I'm sure it will be shrunk when they rework that realm.
You should seriously take a look on the wiki at the stuff that was possible before October 2018, because there was some ridiculous stuff in the game. Exhaustion recovered while sprinting and recovered faster than normal while crouched. Many maps had literal infinite loops, as in, the killer couldn't catch up even with Bloodlust; this was made even more busted by the fact that the entity window blockers didn't exist, so you could keep using the same window as many times as you'd like. BNPs could instantly complete entire generators until 1.5.3, and until 2.1.0 they could still be used to rapidly finish gens so long as you kept repairing (instead of the current 25% repair progress cap). We'll Make It stacked with Self Care so you could straight up Self Care to full health without a medkit in like 2-3 seconds - like, just watch [this]. Many tiles were substantially more safe. For example, in that last clip, notice how that first jungle gym spawned two windows instead of one. There were like double the amount of pallets on each map, including a number of loops with multiple safe pallets. Insta-blind flashlights existed... I could go on and on. There were some busted things on the killer side too (e.g. machine gun build, no swivel hooks), but on the whole the game was ridiculously survivor sided. If the devs just wanted to keep the game fun for survivors they would not have bothered removing all of this, but they did because they have every incentive to make their game balanced.
I'm amazed you were able to spin nerfing insta-heals as the devs listening to survivor feedback lol - that was just a necessary nerf to something that was OP and that killers didn't like. They were definitely not nerfed because survivors were mad their teammates weren't using them on them - like, nerfing them just makes it less likely they'll be used 😂
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I can't make a full list, but here are some off the notable survivor nerfs I can think of off the top of my head. Some might be a bit outside two years - just trying to ballpark it from memory:
- Toolboxes (much smaller capacity but larger boost - substantially fewer seconds saved over the course of the match from a toolbox)
- Coop repair speed (15% penalty per survivor instead of 10%)
- Healing (takes longer than before)
- Maps (many were updated - infinites removed, strong loops weakened, pallet numbers generally reduced, standard tiles weakened, sizes shrunk, etc.)
- Vaulting (fast vaults require you to run straight at the window for a longer distance now)
- Great skill checks while repairing (used to give 2% extra progression, nerfed to 1%)
- Exhaustion (no longer recovers while sprinting)
- Add-ons (now consumed when the trial ends)
- Totems (improved hiding spots; it used to be impossible for the devs to place them too close to other objects)
- Meta perk nerfs (namely DS being switched to a 60 second timer)
This is ignoring all of the killer buffs and improvements we've seen as well (e.g. reworks of killers like Bubba, Doctor, and Freddy, the introduction of several new meta perks, ability to close an open hatch, etc.)
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It doesn't always take that long. Look at Mettle of Man - that was on the fast-track to being an OP new survivor meta and they nerfed it so hard from the PTB that it was a meme perk by launch.
Pop is actually a lot stronger now than it was at launch - it was originally 30s, buffed to 60s, and then nerfed back to 45s. As for Undying, even with the nerf I think it's strong enough to be meta - Undying/Ruin/Tinkerer will still be great for highly mobile killers and Undying/Devour will probably be meta on killers that can defend their totems, like Hag. Undying didn't even exist until the fall, remember, and survivors haven't had a single meta perk added since Dead Hard in July 2017. There have also been 8ish killer meta perks added since then.
I think that MMR will solve a lot of your issues with unfun matches as Mikey - he's a pretty weak and slow-starting killer, so you don't have as much margin for error when you're playing him. It should be better if you're at least consistently going against people your skill level instead of getting a mix of amazing and terrible players.
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Yes, those behaviors were there before Ruin was nerfed, but a lot of killers didn't want to use them, so they didn't. The Ruin nerf forced killers to use techniques they wouldn't have used before, in order to by themselves some time. Slugging initially went up by the increase use of DS, but became a strategy for slowing down gens. The difference is the DS slugging was only to insure the DS timer ran out, then they would get hooked. Now slugging is done indefinitely. Some killers even go for 4 slugs now.
I never said that they "won" being laid back. Winning (assuming you mean 4k) wasn't as much of a driving force. Most were just trying to get more BP, so more downs, more hooks, more chases. After that most killers didn't mind survivors escaping. I think that was more fun for everyone. With faster gen times, a lot of that disappeared, so killers resorted to other tactics, or quit.
As, I think I mentioned previously, most killers would have been fine with changes to Ruin, just not the changes that were made. They offered alternate suggestions, but they were ignored. Undying was probably something similar. I wasn't following that change, so I don't know what killers might have suggested. Your suggestion might have been fine, but again the devs made a much bigger change than was needed.
As for survivors not wanting to cleanse totems, that was a big part of the Ruin nerf too. Some survivors were complaining about having to look for totems, they didn't want to do it. If Ruin was out in the open the killer lost it early in the game. If it wasn't, some people just couldn't be bothered looking, despite tools/perks that make totems much easier to find. When those were suggested, those same people complained that they didn't want to waste slots on those "non-meta perks". I never had a problem with the old Ruin. It was slower, but just as easy to do gens. I even started running Small Game, especially once Inner Strength came out. I have avoided the forums for a while, so I have not really seen what people were saying about Undying, but I imagine that some of the same people were complaining about having to cleanse totems. To be fair, you have to guess when any perk is in play. Killers have no idea whether someone has DS, Unbreakable, or any number of other perks. Survivors have no idea whether the killer has BBQ&Chili, Nurse's Calling, Discordance, etc. Just like with many of those abilities, if a solo player doesn't know if some of those are in play, you assume that they are.
There are only 5 totems total, with 4 survivors. With Small Game or a map, you could find them just by going from one objective to another, but people don't want to have to give up other meta perks or items to use them. So killer powers get nerfed, rather than just tweaked. Some of the changes might not have been so bad if the devs actually hid totems. So many of them spawn out in the open, even right next to gens. That has been brought up countless times and it just gets ignored. That really seems like a pretty small ask, but no. Honestly, does that sound fair to you?
Yeah, it was Otz. He never mentioned Undying, so it could be what he was basing it on. IIRC, though, he was mostly talking about the time it takes to do a gen vs the amount of time it takes to cleanse a totem. It was about getting the gens done asap. Ruin, as it is today, only affects gens that aren't being worked on, so if you focus on a gen and complete it, Ruin is a non-factor, and skipping the totem makes that more likely.
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There are definitely boosted red ranks out there on both sides, but you need to be at least pretty decent or play a lot if you want to make it to red rank with either side. Killers don't only get boosted up there by picking on boosted survivors; they can also just play killers like Legion that pip super easily even when they don't do well.
It's also sort of a chicken and egg problem. Like, are red rank killers often boosted because there are boosted red rank survivors they pick on? Or are red rank survivors often boosted because there are boosted red rank killers they pick on?
I just don't think rank 1 says that much about skill on either side. Like yes, rank 1s will tend to be better than lower rank players, but given that it's a function of skill and time invested, rank 1 will have a mix of people who are good, who play a lot, and who are good and also play a lot.
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- Toolboxes (much smaller capacity but larger boost - substantially fewer seconds saved over the course of the match from a toolbox)
- Coop repair speed (15% penalty per survivor instead of 10%)
- Both the above are due to the RUIN NERF so no they won't be accepted as toolboxes have been made sabo gods now.
- Healing (takes longer than before) no changes since OCT 2018, this was done because healing was out of proportion.
- Maps (many were updated - infinites removed, strong loops weakened, pallet numbers generally reduced, standard tiles weakened, sizes shrunk, etc.) <=== infinties have been placed back in due to breakable walls and people who never knew about infinites do not know what walls to break and what to maintain hell i don't know every one to keep from making infinites! You're arguing that this is an issue when others are arguing that blood lust is a problem. might want to figure out what you want to worry about. maps have been fairly well balanced in general with some going survivor and some going killer and it's much more even so far this is not a nerf this is balancing.
- Vaulting (fast vaults require you to run straight at the window for a longer distance now) (note: vaulting was not changed, only refined to be what it should be so not a nerf, but to augment this the definition of slow/medium/fast vault now exists and instead of a vault THEN 0 momentum, you get the following: after a slow vault you have 0 momentum and must start running, fast vault: you maintain your momentum through the vault and do not have to regain it after, NOW: medium vault: 50% (I believe) momentum maintained, so you now as a survivor have easier chances to get away through a window thus NOT A NERF)
- Great skill checks while repairing (used to give 2% extra progression, nerfed to 1%) <== this was done in response to ruin changes
- Exhaustion (no longer recovers while sprinting) <=== was not ever intended to happen that way and was changed long before October 2018.
- Add-ons (now consumed when the trial ends) <== not a nerf, killers have always had to loose their add-ons, this leveled the playing field.
- Totems (improved hiding spots; it used to be impossible for the devs to place them too close to other objects) <== this brought it in line with what it should have been, you have also gotten more points from cleansing them as well. Totems are still VERY VISIBLE and I see them both as killer and survivor even when not looking for them.
- Meta perk nerfs (namely DS being switched to a 60 second timer) DS nerf? you mean ######### buff. before your DS was mitigated by Enduring now it is not, you no longer have to be the obsession to use it right away and the obsession is NOT the one with DS (if no other obsession perks in the mix). this is part of the problem with the issues of DS/UB combo which didn't work before because of the requirement of DS if your were not the obsession!
you don't want killers to close the hatch? then we'll go back to 30+ minute hatch standoffs Also know that with the advent of egc and hatch close, you got the hatch automatically opened for you to get out if you don't have a key, and if it gets closed you get the gates powered so you can get out that way... oh yea no more hatch grabs either. so you want to rethink the closing of the hatch? if you are the final survivor and there are 4 gens left, you no longer are trapped as failing your primary objective, you have the secondary objective of the hatch (btw still had to have 2 gens done before hatch was visible back then) and if that fails you now get the tertiary objective of get the gates open without having to do anything with the gens. love how killers have to deal with people that have all the chances in the world to escape. if you have a key even if hatch is closed you can still use key to open it and get out without the killer even being able to stop you unless they stand on the hatch itself leaving you to open a gate. so is the fact killers can close the hatch a nerf or a buff? it's buff with all that....
Perks and new meta perks being added? well one was nerfed into the ground, and the only one that matters was undying and that's down to barely ok because it's utility is severely limited. hoarder? not even something i would want to get in a blood web, why? because it gives you survivors two extra chests, and no limitations on rarity of items that come from it yet only the basement chest is going to alert the killer that someone is going through. that's a buff to survivors becuase it rewards survivors for the killer taking that perk. where is the killer rewarding survivor perks? no where what so ever. Clown buff allows survivors to use the new gas to get a speed boost.... where are the powers that survivors have that rewards killers for their use? no where. bubba? sure he was buffed some, but not all that much just a slight rework on his power usage and the add on items seperated from billy.... surprised you didn't try to pass billy's changes off as a killer buff... that was a killer nerf. Freddy rework... sure it brought a killer that was barely used to one that actually could do something and they have since nerfed him once and another nerf coming along because survivors complained. Doctor's rework? hmmm no more passive insanity gain he has a limit as to how often he can use his area wide shocker (his TR area that is) where as before all he had to do was walk around and you suddelny screamed as you went to another insanity tier. his shocks no longer instantly hit, now there is a detonation delay in which you can still drop a pallet or vault a window. this is a NERF for doc's utility. (stance shift is still in there from shock to attack so that is unchanged)
Finally survivors have had a few new meta perks added in as well but you don't bring them up... you have a perk that gives killers no warning that you can pull a pallet down at a certain point so killers now have to re-route around pallets this is a survivor buff if i ever saw one, and it isn't even an obsession perk! so everything you brought up laid low from being a killer buff or survivor nerf plus more. want to try again?
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everything you mentioned was not intended and I know how self care was busted back in the day. this is why i said post SPIRIT DLC (oct 2018) and on because that is when i was starting to play. it was after BNP's were dropped to 25% etc. yea lots of things happened in the first year that should never have happened before and then in year 2 things were slowly starting to get better and finally years 3 and 4 well yea lots has changed. and YES the DEVS said the REASON the insta-heals were nixed was because they SAW they were not being used as intended. killers complained sure, but they saw survivors upset as well. how am I wrong in what i said? Every thing you said needed to be fixed to give killers a chance, and YES there were things that had to be fixed on killer side too back then, this is something i even said and again why i put the date of oct 2018 in my post.
breakable walls that cover up the holes made to break infinites put those infinites back into play if you don't know to break them. and in some cases they added extra breakable walls that CAN create infiinites in places that didn't have them before if broken. so without the knowledge of what happened before how will people know to break or not break them when learning killer? the answer is they won't so either will make it by breaking every one down, or keep them by not breaking a single one at all.
Speaking of mother's dwelling, we will see if they intend to drop that map's size or not though my comments speak to what is currently out there.
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I don't think the game should be balanced in such a way that killers can choose to play sub-optimally and then choose to let survivors escape. I think the game should be balanced such that both sides trying their hardest to win would average ~2 survivors escaping in a match with a reasonable amount of hooks (say 6-10). I have no problem with slugging as a survivor, but if people don't like it, they can't certainly address that in other ways. In other words, even if we assume that Ruin's nerf led to an increase of slugging, the answer isn't to restore old Ruin. The answer is to make slugging a disavantageous play for killers in the base game. I'm not actually proposing any of these, but examples of things they could try might include base-kit Unbreakable (without the recovery speed bonus), base-kit Tenacity, docking killers' devout emblem based on cumulative slug time, etc.
I don't think the totem factor was the core problem with Ruin before; it was really more the skill checks, because that was what made totem-hunting necessary for lower-skill players. Newer players couldn't hit the checks and also didn't know where to look for totems, but they nonetheless had to go against Ruin in the vast majority of their matches. So, it basically became a passive noob stomping perk that could win you games by itself. People had to pay a pretty painful time tax to improve over time, which isn't ideal for keeping your player counts up. At higher rank it was never that much of an issue because you could pretty easily cleanse it or just power through the skill checks. Behavior I think quite rightly saw that this was hurting the experience for low-rank players and decided to change it such that it now requires killer pressure to be effective while also taking away the skill checks that low-rank players struggled with so much. I think new Ruin is a much more balanced perk that rewards good play, so I really do like the change.
As for Undying, totems are usually not that hard to find and are easy enough to cleanse, so SWFs can deal with Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer well enough in a balanced match. For less experienced players and solos, though, it is very hard to coordinate totem cleansing vs. gen rushing, and especially when the killer can easily chase you off of their totems because of the aura reading. You could easily have one guy running around looking for the hexes and never touching gens while another guy is intentionally ignoring the hex totems he's found in order to force out gens. The result is a massive amount of extra wasted time for solo queue players, who are already of course at other disadvantages from playing solo.
The difference between not knowing a perk like Undying exists and a perk like BBQ or Nurse's exists is that Ruin/Tinkerer is strong enough to win games for the killer if the Ruin stays up the whole match. For BBQ, you can just hide behind a gen or, if you're in a risky situation, hop into a locker for a few seconds. For Nurse's you can just wait a little bit to heal. These are just small inconveniences that waste a few seconds here and there. Meanwhile, Ruin can easily waste a few minutes worth of repair time over the course of the game. That's easily enough to give the killer the W in a reasonably balanced match. To deal with this, you really need to coordinate to either make sure you're sticking on gens and rotating to finish gens that are regressing, or to cleanse the Undying/Ruin while wasting minimum time. Solos can't do this, though, and SWFs can. So, Undying/Ruin/Tinkerer just turns into a solo-stomping monster of a perk combo. That's reason number one why it needed changing, not people complaining; solo queue's weakness is already a problem that needs work, so adding to that disparity doesn't make a lot of sense.
If survivors are really able to focus down gens such that Ruin is a non-factor, that means the killer is not applying any pressure. In a balanced match Ruin definitely should be a factor, and for that reason I'd personally take the time to cleanse it in a SWF the second you locate two hexes. I like Otz's point as a general rule even for solo queue, though, because that's the best play if your teammates are also playing optimally. Still, it doesn't defend against the one teammate who decides to run around the map cleansing every totem they see, and actually just wastes more time for your team than if you had helped him out.
It also does need to be said that totem spawns have gotten significantly better over the years; I don't think this has been ignored at all. In 2.5.0 the devs made an under-the-hood change that allowed them to place totems much closer objects. That was part of the reason totems were often so easy to find before - it just wasn't possible to hide them in corners like they are now. They'd been improving them little by little when the map reworks started, but they're pretty much not an issue on the new maps. I'm sure they'll be in a good state when the map reworks are done.
I'm also fine with the devs not taking community suggestions for changes because the ideas people come up with are honestly pretty terrible most of the time. I'd prefer the devs keep their ears open to identify which aspects of the game aren't fun and/or aren't balanced, but I'd prefer them solve the problem however they see fit. I think they've been mostly doing that, so I'm happy with it.
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I'm not commenting on whether or not these changes were good or not; I actually agree with almost all of them, including killers being able to shut the hatch. I do think the game has gotten more killer sided over the past few years, but not substantially so, and also a lot more healthy (as in, much of the really broken stuff is now gone from the game). You just asked for a list of survivor nerfs over the past few years, so I tried to deliver that :)
Which two meta perks are you talking about though, out of curiosity? It looks like you're talking about Power Struggle, which is honestly just a much worse version of DS - it basically requires a second perk to be useful (Flip Flop), it requires being slugged under a standing pallet to be useful (much harder to trigger than DS, which can of course make survivors safe if they even just jump in a locker), it requires you to burn a pallet to get the stun, and it has a shorter stun than DS. What's the other one though? Are you counting Soul Guard or something?
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I 100% agree that all of the stuff I mentioned needed to be changed - it was busted. As for insta-heals, though, it really just doesn't make any sense to address a complaint of insta-heals not being used on slugs by making insta-heals substantially less effective at healing slugs. Before the nerf you would instantly heal the slug to full. Now the survivor might just get picked up by the killer several seconds after you use the insta-heal, or they might have just stood up as the killer comes back and then get rapidly re-downed by the killer since they only heal for one health state. If you can find a communication from the devs saying this then I'll believe it, but it makes no sense lol
I'm not so bothered by the breakable walls - there are a few dumb ones that the killer basically should never break or they're hurting themselves, but for the most part it's good to break pretty much every wall and the main tradeoff is just the time it takes to break them. Breakable walls are pretty much the same as pre-dropped pallets; breaking them takes a few seconds, but it substantially weakens the loop for the next survivor that tries to use it. No loop is infinite if you can just go through a 2-3 second animation and make it not infinite. And besides, many of the new "infinites" folks have been complaining about aren't infinite even if you leave the wall up. For example, in the Groaning Storehouse main building window loop (which I've seen numerous posts complaining about) you can usually catch up to the survivor in Bloodlust 2 (depending on how close you start to them). On that map they also removed a pallet while adding the breakable wall, so I definitely don't see that as a survivor-sided change. The devs basically took a pallet that was standing before and just pre-dropped it. Most of the other maps with breakable walls are similar. Like, take Dead Dawg - yes, breaking all of the saloon walls takes a while, but there are also no pallets in the saloon and it's actually pretty weak once the walls are down. It's also not infinite if you leave the walls up, but it is of course extremely strong.
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the issue with insta-heals is not lets change it to make people use them on slugs, but they changed them to be something much more in-line with what they were using them for but removed the big payday in the chases. purple because an instant BT for 8 seconds, the pink syringe became a heal for one state taking from 8-16 seconds to affect. so now it's better in line with how they were being used.
I'm not disagreeing with breakable walls, but to talk about the removal of infinites and then not bring up the fact that they were put right back in there with the breakable walls is assinine, not everyone learned the breaks in that time much less people coming in after the walls were put back into play. lots of issues there basically took something killers addressed, got the change though not perfect that was being looked for and volia... it's back! lets make it a place where we'll have the killer waste time to break it to give them a measily 100 points for and stick it in everyone's eye because well you can break it if you want to and thus re-destroy the infinite loop that we already did the patch before! great thing to get people happy then ######### with em again.
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- MMR was broken when it was first released. bhvr is gunna break this again (I can't even defend them on this..)
- It's been a iffy situation with Perks, Maps. Items. Addons. Playstyle. (Skins? dunno if i wanna list that here) Offerings are meh at this point aswel. It's like the saying "You Can 4k on Any killer with No perks or Addons" Which is True in a sense... But against Actual Good Survivors. your chances of winning against them as a mid-tier killer or barely high tier killer is Very slim to none,
- Idk what tournaments do that kind of system. The one system that i've seen acouple is most points. (I.E Gens are 2 per completion. 3 if escaped w/o hooked. 2 if 1st stage. 1 if 2nd stage Etc) Then again i'm still stepping my foot in said Comp
- The other point i do wanna bring up though is the Bugs that plague killer that Haven't gotten fixed yet, What do i mean by this? Well... sometimes you'll get cucked over by your own powers. (Blight: Can instantly be Fatigued when he first starts running. Trapper's traps in the walls.. wraith taking longer to uncloak even w/o addons. Etc) and that's not going into full detail. Some of these Bugs have been in the game for Who knows how long. the Nurse bug even when you can't second blink or first blink https://www.twitch.tv/videos/876532560
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I never said that killers played sub-optimally. I said their goals were different and that made the game more fun for everyone. Survivors clearly don't like the slugging, camping, tunneling, mori's, etc, that became far more frequently used after the Ruin nerf.
" even if we assume that Ruin's nerf led to an increase of slugging, the answer isn't to restore old Ruin. The answer is to make slugging a disavantageous play for killers in the base game".
And, see, there is the problem. Killers used Ruin so frequently because gen times were too fast, and it bought them time. Survivors didn't like it so it got nerfed. Now killers have resorted to tactics like slugging to buy more time, and you feel that Ruin should not be restored but killers should be punished for using the tactic. How is that not a bias against killers. Nerfs to a killer perk forces tactics that survivors don't like, and then the killers get punished for it because survivors don't like it. That is a one sided perspective.
The Ruin nerf had nothing to do with skill checks. The skill checks were the same, you just gained less for them. If new players couldn't hit skill checks, they would explode the gen anyway. I couldn't hit a great skill check to save my life, but I could power through a gen with Ruin on, by simply hitting good skill checks. And since when do we balance a game towards the least skilled players? And if we did, why is it only new survivors that we care about? What about new killers that have no idea how to cope with the ridiculously fast gen times? Again, completely one sided.
Your idea that Ruin is so effective is based on a lot of assumptions. Matchmaking working properly, which we know it doesn't. Killer players being able to apply that much pressure, which many can't. Killers, themselves, even having the ability to apply that pressure, which many don't. It really doesn't take that long to finish a gen. Even less with tool boxes. These gen pressure arguments always get dumped onto the killer. Why was this same type of argument made about Ruin skill checks. Why were survivors not expected to get better at those?
If survivors are skilled, they can loop killers and keep them occupied long enough for gens to get completed. Even if the killer is able to judge that a chase is not worthwhile, it still wastes time, allowing other survivors to finish the gens they are working on. And how much fun is a new killer player going to have? Major nerfs have been made to killers to make the game more fun for new survivor players, but what about new killer players? Things were made worse for them. Hence the longer survivor queues and faster killer queues.
Patch 2.5? That was 2 years ago. Yet, totems still appear out in the open. Some may be better hidden than before, I can't say. Until they make the effort to hide them all, so that the "strongest killer perks" have a decent chance of remaining in the game long enough to be a factor. Even if Ruin was as strong as you believe, the fact that it can be easily removed early in the game before it can do anything, is pretty sad.
A lot of the suggestions that were being made were very good and well thought out, yet were completely ignore. That's why a lot of people question why they even bother with the PTB. They don't listen anyway. Also, it seems that the dev team can do no wrong in your eyes. I think you are in a very small minority that feel that the devs have done a good job balancing the game. I think that most people, regardless of side, would disagree with that.
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You can't deny the fact that the devs will cater more to survivors thats just a fact. Theres more of them so they're the loudest group. Showing kill rate statistics is pretty useless imo. Only because anything can happen in a game like noed,over altruistic, or even a dc because they found the killer "boring". Map resize, insta heal nerf, vacuum pallets and nerfing infinites are great examples of QOL changes that made it more fair. Killers will always use the meta because their choices on perks to use is limited. 1 meme perk on a killer can cost you the game. But a survivor can bring 0 perks and still win. Survivors imo have gotten worse in terms of looping. Mostly because survivor has gotten easier. There should be a middle ground for both sides with equal treatment. But before the game "dies" because survivors leave the game killers will be the first to go. Ita obvious by the survivor que times. They always have been long its gotten a bit better. Survivor que times used to be like 20+ mins.
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Infinites are infinites, though; the killer can do nothing. WIth breakable walls, it takes like 2 seconds and the loop is substantially weakened. That's not an infinite. It just gives the survivor a stronger loop and/or a head start in the chase if you don't pre-break it. Even if you don't break a single wall, though, in today's game I don't know of any true infinites. If you know of a single loop survivors can just run indefinitely even against Bloodlust, please let me know.
It's not really helpful to only focus on the addition of breakable walls without considering the balance of the map in general. If the devs replaced a standing pallet with a breakable wall, for example, that's not really strengthening the map even if leaving the wall up gives survivors a strong loop. It's not really much different than a pre-dropped pallet that the killer can remove before the chase even starts and that a survivor also can't vault.
I think people on the forum are generally overreacting to these. I don't personally like them because I don't think they're a fun addition to the game, but they're also not a balance issue.
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- MMR's launch was definitely a failure but my point still stands.
- I wouldn't say offerings are "meh" here - old Moris were consistently banned and they massively swung the balance of the game towards killer.
- I've only watched bits of a few tournaments and one was purely based on in-game BP. The sides would take turns playing the same killers on the same map and the cumulative BPs from the survivor and killer phase determined who would win. You'd definitely play matches differently if this was your win condition than if you assign points just based on gens and hook states, and neither of these is necessarily going to match what the average player would do in a public match. They might often be focused on rift challenges at the expense of doing gens, for example.
- It makes a lot of sense for there to be more bugs on the killer side because there's simply more and newer content for killer. Survivors don't have unique powers and mechanics and their basic abilities don't change with each new DLC like killers' do. There are tons of issues for both sides that haven't gotten fixed / didn't get fixed for years too - Dead Hard will often leave you exhausted on the ground if you use it right as the killer's about to hit you, applying status effects will still briefly survivors' games even on high end PCs, survivors will randomly start doing the animations for other survivors (e.g. doing the hook animation right when your teammate gets hooked), etc. How long did survivors lose all momentum after a fast vault and take free hits through windows? How long did hit validation take to finally make it into the game? DBD is a buggy mess lol, it's definitely not just the killer side.
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Well now we come to 2021 where Hit val doesn't work half the damn time. Mori's are flat out useless but eh, Hell i can agree both sides have underlying issues. but for bhvr to not Fix All the issues that plagued a killer for months? How long did the billy bug take? till his rework (If you don't know that bug. he basically never lost any charge build up if you stunned him with a pallet) Or the michael bug where he can't stalk survivors out in the open sometimes and if he does. he'll lose like some or half of his whole stalk progress. Then again survivor also is plagued with Dh issues. getting hit over every single window when it isn't close.. ds won't stun the killer rarely.. pallet stunning issues. BUT issues nevertheless
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my point is not the addition of the breakable walls, but killers finally got the devs to listen to them, and for a short while things were going really well then the first round of map reworks cameout and those holes that were poked in the structure was boarded up by a wall. you could kick it down, but you spent time and got rewarded 100 points for it and that's it, and if the person playing killer didn't know that is a wall you have to destroy to break the infinite, then you might not even do so and you might not realize it for months or even a year because you might end up not ever finding out that you could break those damned survivors out of their chase. how fair is it on them? it isn't. new players are bombarded by "do this, don't do that" right and left and what sticks in their heads? "don't do totems, it's not worth it!, Don't break the breakable walls it only gives survivors an infinitie. both of these phrases are WRONG. you do totems, to prevent noed, to take down other hex perks and prevent them from being used. You break some but not all walls... who is going to teach this to the new players? NO ONE wants to because that's how people take advantage of the new players because of bullying tactics. IT just isn't a good thing to do something then wall it up again just because you can thinking EVERYONE will know this is a wall to break and this is one that is not one to break. You will come back telling me i'm focusing on the wrong thing and then tell me what i should focus on, I'll come back and tell you the same thing from both sides of the coin letting you decide which to believe so who's doing the right thing? I'll tell you it's not you because for several posts you have tried to prove a point that you can not prove at all and you use explain tactics to do so making it seem like you're explaining what's going on but what I am seeing is you trying to tell me I am wrong and I will never be right.
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The only people that are biased are those that think the devs would somehow intentionally alienate one of their existing income streams.
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If slugging has always been viable and killers simply chose not to do it, that means that they weren't playing optimally.
Gen times were not too fast when Ruin was in heavy use. It was used because it was the most effective killer perk at all levels of play, hands down. That's about it. Gen times only feel fast when killers aren't able to maintain pressure. Some people work on their game and get better, and others just come to the forum to complain about survivors being OP. That second group is part of the target audience for this post.
The skill checks for old Ruin were different in their behavior. I'm sure you know this but to talk it through, f you hit a good skill check, the gen would instantly regress by 5% and also spark for a couple seconds. You can't repair a sparking gen, so you end up losing 6-7 seconds for a good skill check against old Ruin. That goes up to closer to 9 seconds if you were trying to co-op the gen. And, that's if you're getting good skill checks. If you miss the skill check while trying for the great skill check, you lose the normal 10% progress plus 2 seconds or so while the gen sparks. Generator repair skill checks have an 8% chance, so you're getting one about every 12.5 seconds. If you can't hit your great skill checks, which is common at low ranks, you're basically repairing the gen at slower than half speed (and worse if you're co-oping it) and you're getting more and more tilted as you repeatedly regress the gen. Meanwhile, for better players, you might be able to hit like 75% great skill checks. Each great skill check only loses you 1.6 seconds (since you normally would have gotten a 2% bonus and that drops to 0%), and you'll probably only hit a good skill check every 50 seconds or so. As a result, you're able to power through the Ruin closer to 20% slower than normal, which is more akin to Thanat with four injured survivors, and therefore strong but not nearly as busted... I'm definitely not saying we should balance the game around weaker players, but if there's a perk that is easy for killers of all ranks to use that is singlehandedly stomping weaker survivors, that's something that should be changed.
If matchmaking is bad the only perk that's going to help you is NOED. If killers don't know how to apply pressure, though, that's on them. Kill rates are obviously imperfect, but they're high enough that you would have to be an exceptionally boosted or bad killer to never be able to apply pressure. Gen pressure gets dumped on the killer because that is the essence of what the killer role needs to do to win. Old Ruin was the strongest perk in the game as a passive as in, killers didn't need to do anything to make it work and it would massively slow down the game. Slow down perks are fine and healthy imo, but killers should have to earn their pressure. Perks like Pop, BBQ, and new Ruin do that well, because they're powerful but only if the killer plays well enough to get use out of them. They don't just win the game on their own against weaker survivors, which I feel is exactly how it should be.
Patch 2.5 was two years ago, yes, but this game has been out for 4.5 years. If we're looking for evidence of survivor bias it seems strange to ignore the first half of the game's history. Totems only appear out in the open now on a few maps: Crotus Prenn and Coldwind maps (and these totems aren't always that easy to find depending on which Coldwind map it is and where the gens spawn, since they're in the corn). I think that's it. Crotus Prenn and Coldwind have seem some improvements to their totem spawns over the years, like most of the maps, but some are occasionally poorly hidden and then invariably get screen capped as evidence of the devs hating killers. They also haven't had their reworks, though, so it seems pretty pointless to complain about them now. It just takes time to make new content. Meanwhile, pretty much all of the reworked maps have very well-hidden totems. I think the only exception to that is new Blood Lodge - they're usually pretty easy to find on that map. Totems generally gotten much better hiding spots over time. The devs also haven't addressed the maps in the game with a high percentage of totem spawns that are way too strong, though, namely both Backwater Swamp maps, which would be strange if they were actually biased to address survivor issues first.
I agree they should pay more attention to the PTB. I'm still pretty annoyed they released The Twins and Elodie in such a terrible state - they definitely should have pushed that back and released it when it was good and ready. As for balancing the game, though, all I can say is the game only feels unbalanced now if you ignore how it used to be. When the devs make a balance change, I just ask the question "Is this more busted/unhealthy/unfun than before, or less busted/unhealthy/unfun than before?" If the latter, which is almost always the case, I'd consider it a good change. The community is never going to reach consensus about what "balanced" is, especially because most people on the forum are vocal pro-survivor or pro-killer partisans. Since the devs have access to way more data than we do and their incentive is to make the game healthier for both sides, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt provided the changes are moving things in a good direction.
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My post addressed my reasons for trusting the kill rate trend line as a way to evaluate balance over time, as well as why I don't feel "there are more survivors / survivors buy the most cosmetics, so we need to appeal more to them" is a good argument - let me know how you feel about the points I made.
I don't feel at all right now that killers need to run a meta build to compete while survivors can just go perkless. Both sides are at a huge disadvantage if they're wasting their perk slots. I also don't feel that survivor is easier now than it was historically; on the contrary, I think the devs have removed a lot of tools survivors had at their disposal in years past, and with good reason, because survivor used to be silly OP.
When were survivor queue times that bad? Legitimately curious - I've been playing for about three years and I don't think I've seen queue times worse than they are now.
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I definitely agree that Behaviour should prioritize stability more. I think they focus way too much on new content, even if there are some players who basically just tune in for the new stuff.
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If a killer doesn't know how breakable walls work, I don't think we should really be balancing maps around them :) I really wish they'd make an expanded tutorial to show mechanics like that work, though - that should help new players with the learning curve. Hopefully MMR will help things too when it finally comes back.
I don't think you're wrong to be concerned about new players figuring this out, and my perspective is admittedly more biased towards red rank since that's where most of my experience is from. It's true that you need more experience to determine if a wall is smart to break compared to a pallet.
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WOW you really like taking one part of a sentence and running with it. I didn't say they didn't know how the breakable wall worked I said they don't know which ones to break and which ones not to break. you have continually tried to push this idea that killers have all the advantage and i've shown you that you are wrong but you won't even admit that and come to an idea that was NEVER in my post what so ever. this tells me you are writing your own narative and not one of truth. i'm done.
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I think I understand you okay - I didn't just mean knowing that you can break walls in the first place. I also mean the fact that some walls might not be smart to break. I can see new killers just breaking every wall they see and inadvertently helping the other team until they start to really learn the maps. It'd be cool to see some advanced tutorials that explain nuances like that and other higher-level killer tactics.
I don't think killers have all the advantage; I just think that both sides generally have the ability to influence the outcome of the match based on their play. In a match with fair matchmaking, neither survivor nor killer has all the power. Both sides can make plays that will swing the balance of the match. I think the game is in a better state now than it ever has been, and that matchmaking is really a bigger factor in terms of which side will win than overall game balance. I think overall game balance is alright at the moment, though.
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SWFs is one of this game's biggest problems. It's either part of or a reason for a myriad of other problems. It should be in a mode that you opt into like cross platform play. That way killers and survivors can choose if they want to just play with/against solo survivors. It will cut down on bullying, toxicity and the overall game frustration that new survivors experience because killers are pissed off with SWFs or they're being used as bait and a farming resource.
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if you think overall game balance is ok then you are smoking something. when it takes a killer to play nearly 100% just to get a single pip and a survivor to do two gens, heal two people, sabo a hook or two, win a couple of chases and they can get a double pip the balance isn't there. you do not understand what I mean or say you have consistantly taking what I say and twisted it to make you seem right and me wrong so yea no. the devs are survivor biased and have shown it in how they're doing the midchapter patch here with a new positive for the survivors and a net negative for killers. ONLY good thing they came out for the killers so far is the additional protection for hexes with tokens. still everything else is not good at all. they've removed exhaustion bottles from the clown so he can't control survivor's use of exaustion perks, given survivors access to one of his powers so killers will never use it except to MEME. the wraith's changes were laughable honestly, his issues are up close not far away and the survivors get buffs out the rear for their perks.... and reintroduction of infinites that sure can be broken but require the killer to KNOW it's an infinite before deciding to break it. that right there shows a survivor bias. apparently there was a shadow nerf for bbq in what they did, once the power is on if you moved within 40 meters the survivors disapear but they do not seem to appear if you move away from them and they now are outside 40 meteres. there are walls that allow survivors to hid in without being detected, a locker on clown's map that will not open for killers but seems to work for survivors. several other things, this shows a survivor bias without a question. and we all know exactly what they'll do for 1-2 weeks, they'll fix the survivor issues but leave the killer issues in to be fixed later. still no word on key fixes... don't even get me started on mmr
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But it makes sense to appeal to the group that will buy more skins from a business perspective. You're right on wasting a perk slot and that survivors used to be OP. But the difference imo is that if a killer brings a bad perk then it'll be harder for them to succeed but if a survivor brings bad perks their team mates can definitely make up for that. It has come to the point were if devs say they can't nerf this or do that because of "statistics" I can't trust them. Which is sad but I do feel like they aren't always telling the truth. But the main reason killer mains are so upset rn its because UB/DS have been in the game for years and are still untouched. Meanwhile undying/ruin were nerfed before a year. If you think ds and ub are fine then thats your opinion but i think the combo is very broken. When I say its easier I meant by looping most maps being reworked are smaller but the loops have gotten stronger which makes sense but if you get a god looper it will definitely show. Right now 1 chase can cost 1 or 2 gens and a half. Depends on how fast you can knock them down. Ques used to be very bad from watching streams and personal experience. Killer ques have always been fast but survivors ques are always taking like 6-10 minutes these days which is way better than like 2 or 3 years ago. It also depends on your region and time of day.
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As a rank 1 killer I have to say its rare that I face a rank 1 survivor. Most of the time they arent even red ranked at all. Usually I might get SWF at rank 5 or so. Theres too many variables in their statistical data that isnt accounted for skewing the end result. It really should come down to hours played and those are the stats they need to look at. X many hours success rates vs X many hours.
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Come on. Slugging is not fun, for either side. That's why killers didn't use it, and you didn't hear all the complaints about it that you do now. Most people play for fun, not just to win. I also notice how you skip the part where you think that if players don't like slugging they should nerf it, and not fix the underlying issue that makes the game worse for killers. You can't fix any problem when you only look at one side. Don't fix the reason that killers slug, just penalize them for doing it. That is clearly a biased point of view.
Gens didn't seem too fast earlier in the games life, because you had a lot of people that didn't really know how to play the game. Someone would get hooked and 3 survivors would all stop what they were doing to go for the rescue. They also checked every chest they came across. Now, most survivors know to focus gens, and it happens very fast. There are countless videos out there of first gens popping in less than 30 seconds. The lowest one I remember seeing is 17 seconds. Many games are shorter than the time you spend in the queue.
Also, you ignored the question of why it is that new survivors are coddled, but new killers have to put up with being abused game after game.
I'll admit that I don't know the numbers of the old Ruin. I just know that I could repair a gen with nothing but good skill checks. I didn't get titled about regressing the gen, because I never thought of it that way. I just thought of it as taking longer and treated it like I was repairing a regular gen. Yes, Ruin was popular, but that is because gen times were so short. Most killers would have told you that would rather not have to take Ruin, and wouldn't have it gen times weren't so fast. Yes, Ruin was useable without skill from the killer, but it was a Hex perk. They are supposed to be powerful, and losing it had nothing to do with lack of skill by the killer or any skill of the survivor other than the ability to hold down the M1 key for 12 seconds. The fact that it could be lost in the first 30 seconds of the game made it a huge risk v reward.
And please stop talking about killers needing to apply gen pressure. That is just a survivor main talking point. It is just something that makes killers have to play sweaty to just do decent. And what about new killers. Do you think that is fun for them, to constantly get walked over? I noticed you ignored those parts of my previous post. You talk about how Ruin was "oppressive" to newer survivors, but you completely dismiss how the fast gen times are oppressive to newer killers. Why does the game need to be made easier for new survivors, but not new killers? It is a huge double standard. That is the very definition of bias.
I have no idea what the point is of going back 4.5 years. That really has nothing to do with the topic, and I wasn't around back then. The only thing that matters is that at the time of the Ruin nerf, the totems were still showing up right next to gens, or other obvious place where you couldn't miss it. It's great that they are going to address some of them in the future, but it should have been considered BEFORE implementing any major nerfs. Map sizes, should have been addressed as well, and the lack of ability of some killers to even apply any kind of gen pressure. Sure it takes time, but they found time to implement breakable walls, which nobody wanted. God loops should have been addressed directly, not through some gimmick that didn't really fix anything.
If the game was perceived as being balanced for both sides, would you have even felt the need to make this post. It is clear that one side feels the game is more balanced than the other side does. Even the best killers in the game feel that it is survivor biased. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see the game improve, and do well, but I do not have the same opinion of the dev teams ability to balance the game. Maybe it's a bias toward survivors, or maybe it's because they test things internally, and their staff is not good at the game. I saw vids of them playing against regular players last year, and they got stomped. They played like new players that had no idea what they were doing. If that is how they judge how strong the killer side is, no wonder things are so unbalanced.
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In theory MMR will already be enough - if SWFs are sweating and performing really well, their rating will just climb. If not, they weren't bullying killers in the first place. SWF isn't going anywhere because that would murder the game's player base. I know I wouldn't play much if I wasn't able to play with my friends.
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