Can someone explain to me why people seem to downplay how busted Dead Hard is?
People ######### about DS, Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Borrowed Time, whatever else. What I don't understand is why people don't complain about Dead Hard nearly as much. I almost never see it talked about despite it being at the very least one of the most busted survivor perks in the game.
Dead Hard, when used right, is--to me at least--the most oppressive survivor perk. In chase, it's basically a free health state, and especially against certain killers like Nurse. And all you have to do is press E. No talent involved, wasting so much time of the killer, and it's not something with limited use (like unbreakable which can only be used once), or something that the killer allows you to use (DS).
It doesn't really matter if half the time it's used you're exhausted on the ground. You can make a similar case in point that DS is not very impactful on a game because people use it as soon as possible, often times after their first hook, rather than preserving it for more critical times. Same with Unbreakable: using it as soon as possible rather than strategically.
DH is the most infuriating piece of shite perk ever but I don't ever see people complain about it and rallying around it getting reworked and I actually don't understand why.
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People will ignore that you can DH for distance and just say stuff like " but you can just bait it out" or "the perk doesn't work I get exhausted on the ground". I wish this perk never existed, there's been so many times I mindgamed somebody but then they used this perk to make it to a god pallet. Such a busted perk
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If it didn't have I-frames and it could only be used to dodge a hit, instead of being used for distance, I'd be totally fine with it.
Skillful interaction with counterplay on both sides is always welcome. Unfortunately, DH doesn't work like that currently. It's better used for distance or as a panic button.
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It's more frustrating right now because the only counterplay that dead hard has, does not apply to Nurse.
Everyone is playing nurse right now, so everyone is running dead hard to hard counter her, and it is incredibly frustrating. Dead hard basically means you have to "hit" every survivor 3 times as nurse.
It's not really all that bad against other killers, it's a strong, fine perk generally outside of a few unfair uses (being able to dead hard over trapper traps is dumb imo as well for example)
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I was watching a Tru3 stream yesterday and he had a debate with his chat and I think he nailed it:
People talk about all the times DH does nothing, when you end up exhausted on the ground. These are the ones that downplay it.
if you instead think about all the times it does work, THIS is why its one of the strongest survivor perks and why almost every survivor under the sun is running it. Majority of survivors wouldnt use the perk if it was bad.
There is also the perception. To the survivor its just a quick tap of the E button and a slight dash forward for half a second, hardly seems like an overly powerful perk.
To the killer that dash allowed them to make a strong pallet or window, and now they just lost an extra 20-60 seconds or more of pressure allowing the 3 other survivors to finished the gens they work working on interrupted. Or perhaps the killer had to abandon the chase entirely, meaning the 30-60 seconds they just spent in the first chase was completely for nothing and they got no pressure out of it and its really hurt them.
Dead Hard is essentially a third health state. Like the old DS its that first chase Dead Hard thats the worst and most powerful because it robs the killer of early game pressure when they need it the most. I’ve seen many great players have games be completely cucked by a 1st chase Dead Hard into a safe pallet.
When I play killer this and OoO are the only 2 perks I actively hate. DS I can put up with as its situational and has a requirement but DH is infuriating.
Theres no way DH would be made the way it is now in 2021. Like MoM its just another health state with no requirements other than playing, if DH got made today it would be nerfed into the ground within a few months
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Oh,trust me I hate getting deadhard'd as much as the next guy in fact I think removing clowns Exhausted bottle cause "Survivor perks should not be locked off" is bias and bullshit.
But,the reason It is bs has more to do with the fact I have people DBZ teleporting thou me...Then the brief protection. That and It seems never to actual slow down a survivor after using It.
However, I lived thou a ERA with BT could be used on a whole team and not just one guy and It was bullshit and unfair to have people sit there and teabag you in the basement cause they where all safe from punishment.
Personally, It is not super bad..But, I think they need to let killers have a way to actually turn It on the person who uses It to the point of abuse.
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Dead hard can be a free health state. Under the right conditions.
But what is with sprintboost? When you use it right, you get a speedboost like from a hit. You dont need to be injured. It counters dead zones, where dead hard is useless. Sprintboost is harder to use, but its stronger.
Lithe and balance can extend a chase, too, but the activation conditions make them weaker rhen dh and sb. But someone with them can still use the speedboost in a straight line and holding w. How much time does that waste without using a loop?
I think the basic problem with chase perks is that loops are too strong. You cant afford as killer to lose so much time bc of a perk when you need a lot of time for the standards two hits in a chase.
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Dead hard is pretty annoying but I don't know if I find it more annoying than sprint burst tbh. Sprint burst literally turns an unsafe area into a safe one and that's kinda busted. I'm totally fine with BT as a killer and a survivor I think it's balanced.
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I also wish the perk never existed. And it's the one perk honestly that makes me frustrated playing killer, especially because I see multiple people have it in every game. It's such bullshite and unfair. To me it is the most exploitable and busted survivor perk that exists.
There is no way for other killers that perk resembles anything of being balanced. It's not fair when it gives invisible frames, and not only that just extends chase for an unreasonable amount of time and there's nothing the killer can do about it.
It is the one exhaustion perk without detriment. Lithe/Sprint Burst/Balanced Landing restricts how you normally move to large degrees and you have to manage the exhaustion perk. DH can be used on command is basically rewrites a mistake you made. The other exhaustion perks don't do that.
I completely agree, it acts as a third health state when used properly, and in red ranks it often is. There is many times not a possibility to bait it out/wait it out depending on where they are, and on top of that you cannot make a survivor use DH.
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What the ######### is wrong with ya'll saying Dead Hard is not balanced, it can only be used once every chase UNLESS the killer is really bad and you can recover from the Exhaustion status while in chase.
Dead Hard doesn't work 85% of the times, it is also used to get great flashlight saves or fix a mistake you've done that could get you on hook.
You just need skill to counter it, wait for Dead Hard lmao learn to play
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This is the kind of ignorance OP was referring to.
How do you “wait for it” when its used ahead of you for distance?
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If you ######### use DH to get some distance you don't know how to use DH.
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Again, fixing mistakes comes up.
How many perks can Survivors equip to fix mistakes? Dead Hard, Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Decisive off the top of my head.
Fixing one mistake as Survivor can extend a chase by 60 seconds and there is NOTHING the Killer can do about it.
If Dead Hard was only used to dodge hits, I wouldn't mind it at all. As it is though, it isn't a skillful interaction. It's the Survivor player seeing that they messed up and that the Killer deserved a down, but they use their perk to ignore that fact and waste more of the Killer's already limited time.
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And I should add that as bad as DH is for m1 killers, basically giving survivors a third health state of really screwing killers over in chases, I’d say its ranged killers like Slinger and Huntress who become less fun to play because of it. Get an amazing long shot or last second reflex shot and its just negated by DH. It also makes killers like Nurse and Blight less fun to play because you can line up your attacks so well but it doesnt matter the survivor has DH. Even if you dont attack because you predict it, you’re still going to go on cooldown and fatigue from using your power.
When I think of maybe playing Blight or Slinger it’s DH that actually makes me decide not to play them because of how unfun it is to line up good attacks/shots and have them negated by a perk. Huntress will be the same once exhaustion hatchets are gone.
Balanced and Lithe are nowhere near as bad. Sprint burst can be frustrating but it ruins stealth killers more so than ranged killers.
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DH - Exhaustion 40 seconds unless Vigil
Unbreakable - Slug? No problemo!
Decisive - No tunnel for you! Get fuck3d
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It is pretty funny how a perk that gives you litteral invinsibility is only broken cause it dashes you a meter or 2.
They could completly remove the I frames and it would still be the strongest exhaustion perk in the hands of strong survivors
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DH has lost me so many games. Like I can't even describe. It is the perk that makes me legitimately mald and there are honestly so many times where I want to play killer but I opt out of it because I mentally do not feel like versuing survivors who press E to undo their mistakes. I've been trying to play legion running some fun builds like overcharge/thana/enfury and I can't do that against ds/dh/bt survivors who make the game a living hell
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Same reason people downplay how busted BBQ or Ruin is.
They like using the perk and don't want it nerfed.
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How is BBQ busted? Half the time I use it as killer I see no auras because survivors hide in lockers
Ruin is very strong yes but it has the trade-off of being breakable, although i don't understand why people say it got nerfed when it's currently stronger than its initial form
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Killers just overreacting.
Exhaustion perks all count as extra health states.
Some are stronger than others. Some are easier to use than others.
Deadhard isn't as strong as Sprint Burst, Lithe, etc. but it's more versatile and easier to use in all situations. That's why it's used by a lot of survivors. It is not as powerful in terms of effect as some of the other Exhaustion perks but thanks to its versatility it is used more. Killers just get their perception colored more because they get frustrated more facing it so many times and feeling each time they miss their swing. Which is not what happens with other exhaustion perks.
Further, missing swings is psychologically damaging especially when it happens when you are about to finish and down the survivor. Other exhaustion perks work at the start of the chase or in the middle so they're not as mentally harsh as Dead Hard.
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Although it definitely is on the stronger side of perks, I tend to run Mindbreaker on a lot of killers, hence its alot weaker as they can only really use it if they give me a free first hit or spend less time on the gen they're working on.
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Finally someone with common sense.
Why does a perk need nerfing because it can counter the strongest killer in the game? Does calm spirit also need a nerf because it counters doctor? I feel like people will only be happy when there's no more perks to nerf and everything is Wake Up tier.
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Everytime I go against a full squad of Dead Hard users
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I did not give you permission to post a gif of me.
Dead Hard isn't only good against Nurse lol if anything she is one of the lesser affected. She can teleport to a survivor at a great distance. Someone who made a Nurse whiff with Dead Hard can easily get smacked 10 seconds later after her fatigue is done, especially with double recharge add ons.
Not the same case for tonnes of other killers who don't have that mobility advantage in chase.
Dead Hard pretty much affects all killers greatly.
I've been trying out Blood Echo with no gains so far on preventing exhaustion perks, particularly Dead Hard, even with the team often injured. I'll give Mindbreaker a try
You're not looking at it from the perspective of chase and functionality.
All the other exhaustion perks, head on/lithe/sprint burst come at a cost of a basic function. Sprint Burst being the strongest but it comes at the cost of having to manage your movement to time your use of the perk properly, and Sprint Burst generally is to prevent the first hit rather than avoids a hit that should have happened. On top of that, you can zone Sprint Burst to make its distance less effective, so killers have a way to counter it.
Lithe is situational, as you may not be near a vault, and it may not be ideal to vault, either.
Head On is Head On. No need to discuss that for hopefully obvious reasons.
There is no situation where you would not want to use Dead Hard. It is good in all situations. On top of that it can cause iframes unlike the other exhaustion perks, and the killer can't do anything to make Dead Hard more effective either. It has no counter.
Dead Hard in general is definitely the strongest exhaustion perk. I only would agree Sprint Burst being better if the entire group is running it. But on an individual 1v1 basis in terms of chase, Dead Hard is stronger. And solo queue games are basically 1v1v1v1v1 anyway,
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No I agree with you, I hate Dead Hard more that D-strike.
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DH is fine... 🙄
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Hehe, look at the paragraphs of justification people have came up with problems with Dead Hard, and then this guy just comes and justifies his argument with three words.
Kind of sums up the brain power you have on each side of the Dead Hard debate, and shows why its so frustrating having this discussion.
Either that or I fell for the troll bait
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It's completely fine. Nothing more I need to say. I have no problems with it as killer.
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Yes I can plainly see you have nothing more to say dude
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I'm glad.
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So you say dead hard is busted because it allows the survivor to avoid a hit where he would have normally been hit, okay I can see why that’s strong.
But what about all the killer perks and add ons they allow the killer to get a hit where he normally wouldn’t have been able to?
Both exactly the same but because one is for survivors it’s OP and broken? I love played both roles, I don’t often use dead hard, but something like bamboozle gets me more free hits than dead hard gives me free health states.
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Which perks do you mean?
STBFL? This is different, you need to gather stacks on this before it becomes useful, you also need to play strategically to either not attack the obsession, or grab/special attack them. You need to work for STBFL, Dead Hard you just need to lose a chase.
On top of that, you've got all the normal arguments around it's an asymmetrical game, the Killer's perks need to be roughly 4x stronger than the survivors perks. A survivor needs to take around 6 hits (2 per each hook state) before they lose. A Killer has to make 6x4, or 24 hits. Therefore, a survivor avoiding 1 hit is much more significant for that survivor, than a Killer gaining 1 hit.
So even if STBFL was stronger than Dead Hard, it should be.
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They're being contrarian or they use it themselves and don't want to see their favorite perk get nerfed.
That's it. It absolutely is stronger than any of the other perks that you rattled off and it's not even close.
I always go back to the original Mettle of Man nerf. People were screaming about a perk that gave you one free health state with a downside effect, but Dead Hard where you basically get at least 3 free health states with just exhaustion, nah totally cool, not overpowered at all... Sure.
And like any strong perk, is it terrible if one guy has Dead Hard, no not really. But when 3 or 4 have it (which is often the case) it blows. You simply can't bait every single hit, since it's mainly used now to get an extra loop at a jungle gym or to get to the nearest pallet.
It definitely needs a nerf.
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its just like, if you fall for DH is just your fault, in the first time is ok
in second time its just all your fault
Like just dont swing every time that you know that someone has DH, it isnt that hard
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I just said bamboozle in my post, gives me loads of free hits where I wouldn’t get a hit without it. Spirit fury, enduring, STBFL, and probably loads more that I cba to think of
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Not to repeat a point that's already been made about 100 times, the problem isn't when Dead Hard avoids a hit (which can be baited), the problem is using Dead Hard to gain distance to get to a pallet or window, and extend a chase another 30 seconds (if you're a good looper). You can't bait that out.
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when is this, just about every game against red rank survivors?
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Like no
It dosent even work normally you just get exausted on the ground
And if you are think tha someone have DH just dont swing, whait to you to be an little bit closer so the surv wont have time to react, or see he trying to predict when you are going to swing and see the surv failing
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They would probably quit the game 🤣
I can tell from the comments these are the same people who complain about tunnelling when you kill them with 4 BBQ stacks.
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Completely incorrect.
You're more than welcome to remain ignorant, but Dead Hard for distance is one of the best tools in the survivor arsenal.
If you can't/don't understand why, it's a direct reflection of your game sense and game knowledge.
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Yeah have it your way, talk to me when you leave that purple rank
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I have no problems with it as killer. I don't even usually use DH, DS, etc. My loadout for survivor is usually Desperate Measures, Botany Knowledge, Self Care and Resilience or Head On, Deception, Quick and Quiet and Iron Will.
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Ok so... I personally don't have an issue with Dead Hard. However... I have a reason for it.
Dead Hard hurts the most against non Insta Down killers who want or need to commit to downs. Why? Well even if you do catch the Survivor in a dead zone where DH isn't useful... they're healthy. The 2 second Sprint Burst on injury will get them to a loop. Then the Survivor will be able to use Dead Hard to make that loop way stronger than in has any right to be and you'll lose a bunch of time.
It doesn't bother me all that much because I almost always play Killers who don't commit to downs. My current mains are Legion with stealth perks, Deathslinger with anti heal and in chase info perks, and Myers who I usually keep in Tier 1 for way longer than necessary. I'm sure you all know that Legion bounces from chase to chase to chase. Deathslinger with Sloppy and enough info perks can be played the same way. T1 Myers basically never wants to commit to a down. Against those styles of Killer, Dead Hard usually doesn't matter because I'm usually catching out already injured people in Dead Zones. Yeah they can Dead Hard but they can't get anywhere with just Dead Hard so it buys them like 3 seconds if that. Sprint Burst on the other hand is frequently miles worse to face for how I play Killer.
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Props to you for not using OP survivor builds!
Honestly, dead hard for distance can be a bit situational or tricky to pull off, the chase needs to be timed and positioned well in order to use the DH at the right moment to get to another pallet, or a loop depending on the map, but when it is used to extend a chase another 30 seconds (easily done if the person is also great at looping and on a good map), it can be devastating to a Killer's pressure, especially if it's the first chase, as its basically just lost you multiple generators.
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It has the same exact issues that basically all of survivor period has in a perfect perk form.
In the hands of an ok survivor, it can grant them a few seconds of chase. They dodge the killer but have bought themselves only a few seconds as the killer is still on their back.
In the hands of a great player though, it's downright devestating. They get to a Double L window set and loop it for 30 seconds. You finally get your hit and as you kill another 20 chasing them, your hard fought down is here...until they DH into another super loop. Now ANOTHER 30 seconds is down the drain as gens pop left and right.
Like everything about survivor, in the hands of a great player, the killer is screwed. The people saying don't nerf it are those average to good players who don't use it in such an effective manner that it breaks the entire game for a killer.
It's what will always be a problem with this game as it's not designed for the E Sport Super Pro but some survivors are just really good at the game and a killer can't do a whole lot about it except hope the survivor somehow screws it up. Shockingly, that's incredibly frustrating for a killer who can do everything right and still get punished for it...
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That might be true for you but it's certainly not for the vast majority of players, hence why you see multiple Dead Hards every game but how often do you see killers running bamboozle? very few.
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Yep,that is what is so damn frustrating with Dead Hard.
Oh,you did a great mindgame or used your power really well thus outplaying the survivor?
Well,to bad the survivor pressed a button and outplayed your play 👏
Dead Hard is honestly THE most frustrating perk to go against.It wouldn't even be too bad if we had at least a decent anti exhaustion perk :(
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+1, this post should be put in a sticky thread on top of the forum, and also printed, framed, and posted to be put on the wall of all survivor mains bedrooms.
If you take this excellent explanation, and then multiply it by 4, as Dead Hard is used by almost all survivors at high ranks lately, then you have a good summary of the problem.
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I guess I've just never felt outplayed by a Dead Hard.
Half the time I wasn't gonna lunge anyway. So they just lurch for a second and then I attack.
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That’s cos killers have plenty of other things they can use and choose to use instead. Just because killers aren’t choosing to use it doesn’t mean it’s not there. Bamboozle can effectively benefit the killer the same way dead hard does survivors.
with dead hard you can make it to a loop and add 30-60secs to a chase.
with bamboozle it completely negates a loop that could have wasted 30-60secs.
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