Arguments against giving Killers the same hook UI as Survivor?
I made the suggestion here:
But I've yet to hear a good reason against providing Killers the same hook information as Survivors.
for the sake of preventing repeat responses please fully read the suggestion post and i'll put points and counterpoints I've seen so far below.
Killers would use the information to tunnel.
A Killer inclined to tunnel is already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event.
Even if it wouldn't encourage tunneling it would encourage better target prioritization.
Giving Survivors the hook state information allows them to effectively prioritize preventing the killer getting kills by body blocking and not wasting time hanging around for a save if the person being hooked is on death hook.
If memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a killer's general skill ceiling why shouldn't that also apply to survivors?
The hook counter was only made to bring solo Survivor communication more in line with SWF.
It's generally accepted that SWF communication imbalances the game. As quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to prevent killers experience being made miserable, further increasing Survivor queue times as less killers play.
X community collected statistics show killers get 4K's more often than not so should be nerfed
While i wouldn't trust stats from small sample sizes since even the Dev's stats often are meaningless like the ones that showed nurse was the worst killer in the game with pig being fourth best.
This is a horror franchise 1v4 game, The killers are supposed to feel powerful and even if they're power needs toning down over all this particular feature is not the place to be doing that.
Comments
-
i'll add to the main post if any new points are raised.
0 -
Survivor gameplay is very demanding and you cannot expect them to keep track of every little thing that happens.
🤭
Ok I tried.
29 -
The only argument I've heard is that it would encourage tunneling, which I think is a bad reason. Killers will tunnel with or without hook counters. It takes no skill to remember hooks but is an unnecessary annoyance imo
20 -
Because giving killers a tool to promote efficiency just isn't allowed apparently. As you've said, the hook counter doesn't impact on tunnelling at all, since if someone wants to tunnel, then they are going to do so and no tally is changing that.
Now what the hook counter would do, is give killers the idea to chase specific survivors over others. For example, you hook a survivor, see two others and decide to chase one of them in particular because they are on death hook and the other isn't.
That's what the hook counter would do, which apparently isn't acceptable, but it is acceptable for survivors to force 10-12 hooks which is an immediate loss for any non-meta killer.
33 -
A good reason to keep the UI in its current state would be to make you make the 5th post about the same topic. You've made 4 of them just in one month so far 👍️
Anyway, it's ok for survivors to have that extra information, it encourages them to work as a team. If you want the same information for everyone then just let survivors see gen and exit gates auras at all times too ;)
7 -
lol
In all seriousness though to add to this Survivors have 4x less perks to keep track of and only need to keep mental note of the killers general location, they have very little information they need to be keeping track in comparison to killers.
6 -
I suspect a part of the plan was also to start helping soloq in the form of giving more information. As to why not give the Killers the same information, that, I would think is a balance question. Information, how to get it, etc is a big part of this game. Giving one 'side' too much information use tilts the game balance in their favor and there's already a lot of information that Killers get without perks that survivors don't.
So, it's probably a small step in trying to improve soloq without giving away too much either to survivors or buffing the information Killers already have. If the impact is small but positive over a course of time, then it would be logical to consider whether or not to add it to Killers.
1 -
Killers don't deserve any qol improvements and they definitely don't have enough information to keep track of while playing vs 4 other people. Killer must remain miserable.
8 -
and if the argument were that memory is a matter of skill, survivors should have to remember too.
8 -
Yeah I agree
6 -
What’s wrong with the UI now?
Like, does it affect your gameplay because you can’t remember who is on death hook and who’s not?
4 -
They want killer to think about the strategy rather be handed the info.
You see two survivors and you don't know which has been hooked already you take a 50/50 chance. If you are given the info and do know who has been hooked then the optimal choice seems to be to go for the one who has been hooked (depending on looping skills of course). It removes a degree of thought process.
While most good killers know who have been hooked there are cases where one forgets and some of course would use it to go after the non hooked one for bbq stacks.
I don't quite understand why survivors need the same though process removed to be fair as it does remove some plays that can happen.
Survivors knowing can avoid running closer to the hooked area and sit on gens or at end game they know 100% to leave.
Personally I don't think it should be there for either side as I do not like too much info being handed to me and believe the game is at its most fun when we are having to think more as we play.
9 -
Guys, you all seem to have forgotten that the "hook info" was added for Solo players. It's to even out solo play with SWFs. Killers don't have SWF, they play at the same level every time.
5 -
Great points.
2 -
To your last question. Simple, because it is meant to bring solo survivors closer to swf informationwise.
Currently, the game can never be balanced because there is a wide gap between random solo survivors without communication and swf with it.
Currently, if a killer is strong enough to handle swf, he is unfairly overpowered for solos, or if solos have a fair shoot at winning, leaving most killers at a disadvantage vs swf.
Closing that gap informationwise (and seeing how it plays out) might then allow better adjustment of power level between killers and survivor. Thats why it shouldnt apply to survivors.
Also, if i am not wrong, tunneling has nothing to do with "of the hook", but is exactly about going after the same survivor to kill him as fast as you can. Going for him after an unhook is just even easier.
And while you can do that of course, at the moment you dont know if you are against the claudette that has been hooked twice or if the claudette in front of you is the one you ddint see all game.
0 -
Agreed, it is pretty silly how killers got the hook counter, which is almost useless and just not the best use of the already new bad UI.
5 -
I know you're poo-pooing the "it would encourage killers to tunnel" argument, but I think your reasoning is flawed.
Not all killers have learned the skills needed to remember which survivor is on death hook.
For less experienced killers, being given extra knowledge on which survivor is nearly dead and which hasn't been hooked at all is going to explicitly encourage them to chase just a single survivor and ignore everyone else.
Yes, some killers do that anyways, but most don't at the higher ranks because it's more fun for everyone (not to mention it's a better strategy to split pressure). It's better not to encourage newer killers to fall into bad habits.
0 -
Embarrassing.
1 -
Yup, it's embarrasing to see killers asking for even more information while they can see gens, exit gate switches AND items in the lobby. 🤷♀️
1 -
these are not even remotely the same thing... this is bait right? it's gotta be...
do tell... what is this information that the killer is getting without perks that the survivors aren't?
where gens are? the randomized thing that the killers are supposed to protect?
doors? the other random thing?
that's dumb
quoting a certain warNung... "I think your reasoning is flawed"
- memory isn't a skill. it just isn't. and if you wanna argue it is, why killers need to use it but survivors don't?
- No it won't. because if a player was inclined to tunnel, he would tunnel based on the character/cosmetic. specially a less eperienced player.
- the best strategy is to eliminate someone from the match ASAP. only 3 survivor left is always better than 4 survivors left. if you can chase the guy on death hook or the guy that was never hooked, killing the dead guy is 99/100 times the best choice
7 -
Nice, Make it sound like i'm spamming and throw in some false equivalence.
for the record these are the 4 posts with reasons:
- January 26, on the Q&A questions thread "In the new UI why do killers have a less useful total hooks widget vs the Survivors separated one?"
- February 5, in General, in response to the answer to the question "The hypocrisy in the "Why do Survivors get more hook info in the new UI than killers?" statement"
- February 12, in Feedback and Suggestions made the suggestion to "Buff the Killer Hook UI"
- this thread, made to challenge and discuss reasons given against giving killers the same UI
Post edited by madminer95 on2 -
People arguing against making things that are already known to killer easier to track are pretty sad tbh
5 -
I'd honestly suggest taking a class in game design or clicking the Killer icon on the title screen.
8 -
I'd honestly suggest L2P.
0 -
that scenario with the 50/50 choice is only going to happen to killers who paid no attention to the game / new players though.
so all that excluding killer from this HUD element does is making it harder for new players to get into the game, older and more experienced players shouldnt have a problem telling who has been hooked how many times yet.
i really dont see how giving killers this information would be a bad thing tbh. like, high rank gameplay would stay mostly unaffected by it and low rank gameplay would generally improve for killers...
5 -
Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, and, most likely, the forum as a whole.
9 -
Same can be said about your last 2 comments 👍️
Have a good day sir.
0 -
No, i never complained about that.
0 -
I've seen players with over 5k hours forget who they have hooked. It can be rare but it happens.
I can understand there reasoning on not wanting to do it but as I said I don't understand the reasoning for giving it to survivors.
Imo neither side should have it. I don't think hand feeding info is needed even or new players as once they become more experienced then they ultimately won't need it.
I also feel less experienced players could be those who would use it to tunnel more which i don't think the devs would want to set that precedent.
0 -
It's generally accepted that SWF communication imbalances the game. As quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to prevent killers experience being made miserable, further increasing Survivor queue times as less killers play.
6 -
If the hook counter is to help new survivors (and solo) then why don't they have it to help new killers? If your SWF depending minds get scared with that idea, why not make each survivor have a unique colour to fill the hook circle? Tells the killer how many hooks they have, what order they are hooking survivors and who they have hooked.
5 -
[sad killer noises]
1 -
If I want to tunnel someone to death I'm going to always remember how many hooks they have - Usually it's when I try to 2 hook everyone where I forget. I won't ever forget if I want a survivor to die. If I want that survivor dead they're going to die. If anything I'm more likely to tunnel not being able to remember who I've not hooked yet.
Legit a hook counter will only help people play nicer it's not going to encourage tunneling anymore than it already happens.
8 -
Yeah i totally agree
3 -
Again, it's not about killers, it's about solo queue players and evening the disparities between solo play and SWFs so the game is easier to balance.
Let's narrow the gap between solo play and SWF play so the game can start being balanced better.
0 -
Its true.. if you want to tunnel someone you just need to remember how many times you hooked him like it always have been.. Its so silly to not give killers the same hud. The argument saying that it would encourage tunneling is really dumb, killers can do that already without the hud.
6 -
The UI now doesn't provide any useful information, at best its a pat on the back, at worst its a waste of screen space.
And it does actually affect game play, the more useful UI would:
- help with target prioritization in the end game where chasing the wrong survivor can easily result in not getting any kills.
- help prevent accidental tunneling (possibly caused by survivors using the exact same skin) so you could avoid eating a decisive strike.
- help prevent wasting Killer resources like The Pig's reverse bear traps on Survivors that are on death hook.
- while also taking up less of the killers FOV.
4 -
I mean, if the names of survivors are gonna be present, you could always keep track of which you have hooked and how long. Having the marks next to survivor's icons would just stream line the process of information the killer would have to try to remember all in their head without the marks. Just put the marks in for killer.
1 -
1) It is very easy to miss information about hook state while playing killer. There's a lot to focus on and I'm sure most people aren't focusing closely on that. Plus, if you're going to argue that things like "Entity Summoned" BPs are enough for killers to track hook states, why are you also complaining about the HUD not doing it for them? At least killers chase and hook every single survivor that ends up on a hook. Survivors, especially when solo, would have to get the information entirely from the HUD. It's doable, but it's certainly harder to keep straight.
2) Tunneling is frustrating and unfun for survivors, so it is something the game tries to discourage. That's one reason why perks like BT and DS are so strong. Since survivors have every incentive to stop tunneling, because it keeps the whole team alive longer, providing them this hook state information allows them to proactively work to avoid it, which in turn results in better gameplay. Killers have the opposite incentive, though; if you kill one survivor early it's a massive advantage for the killer. So, providing them this same information just increases the likelihood of an average killer saying "oh damn that Dwight's on death hook, he's dead next time I see him". That can certainly still happen if the killer is paying attention, but not having that information on the HUD will also clearly discourage it. Meanwhile, the overall hook counter is useful for encouraging hooking survivors (as opposed to slugging), so it also manages to push killers towards more engaging gameplay.
3) SWF communication does not make the game imbalanced. It's specifically the gap between SWF and solo. If SWF couldn't gain much of an advantage from their communication, perhaps because solo already had the information that would normally be communicated, then the communication itself wouldn't be an issue. Adding hook state information to the HUD does close the gap between SWF and solo because hook state information is something that SWFs commonly share with each other. Pretty much anything that shrinks that information gap is a good thing for game balance and this is no exception.
I don't feel that killer strength has much to do with queue times at the moment, as I have said at length in other posts, in large part because there isn't any good evidence that killers are underperforming. I think it's much more likely that things like console performance, which is worse for killers and time of day (survivors who play with their friends are more likely to log on in the evenings when everyone is free) are to blame for the bad queue times in prime time. I'm sure there are other factors as well, like some people being turned off from killer by toxic post-game chats. Plus, think about it logically - who says that a perfectly balanced asymmetric game will always have a perfect ratio of players on either side? One side might just be disproportionately more interesting for the general public. Like lets say killers had to race to roll a boulder up a hill before survivors could drink a pina colada in a hot tub. The killers might finish pushing their boulder first 68% of the time but that doesn't mean anyone's going to choose that over the pina coladas.
Regardless, though, let's assume that giving solo survivors this added information is enough to hurt game balance to the point where the killer side is underperforming. This is still a good thing. In this case we would require some buffs for the killer side, but the newly-shrunk gap between SWF and solo means that when the game is rebalanced SWF will have less of an advantage and solo will have less of a disadvantage. That results in better experiences for everyone: SWF gets more competitive matches, solo gets stomped less, and killer doesn't need to dread those elusive four-man depip squads as much as before.
0 -
The thing is that soloq info will likely have to be raised incrementally and then killer info adjusted accordingly. Killers already get, by default, more map info than survivors. Just to be clear, I am not making a statement on whether that is right or wrong, just the objective fact that the difference exists. So, giving Killers even more information that is just being opened up to soloq is very much an advantage to Killers.
Right now there is a marked difference between the information solo q has and what SWF can have. A difference that BHVR has noted and has said they'd like to address. Likely, that will mean changes for Killer information too in order to compensate, but changes like that are legit going to require time and experimentation because at the end of the day, it's the balance that matters.
0 -
Really, I think that it's just unnecessary. The accumulative sum hook counter is enough for me, and I think that keeping track of survivors' hook states should be an obligation of the killer. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to giving them an analogous hook counter, since it really doesn't change much when you can mentally tally hooks for individual survivors, but I wouldn't be jumping to add one.
0 -
I agree with you if I as a killer have to remember the hook states for each survivor then each of the survivors do
1 -
realistically the Dev's aren't going to take away the hook information from the Survivors now they've given it, with they're goal of bring solo play up to SWF level, so if they're going to as you say hand over the information to Survivors they should be doing the same to killers.
0 -
Not really as one is to try and close the gap by your words which is something the community is asking for while the other can help promote a play style which I don't think the devs want to be more of go to strat than it already is.
0 -
I would use the information to spread out hooks if I am having an average or above game or tunnel someone out if the gens are popping all over far too quickly such as only 3 or 4 hooks, spread out, and 4 gens done. That's my honest opinion but think killers should have the information.
1 -
It's generally accepted that SWF communication imbalances the game. As quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to prevent killers experience being made miserable, further increasing Survivor queue times as less killers play.
1 -
The Non-Tier 1 killers are already getting around a 70% 4ks a game. If anything, killers need to be nerfed.
This is what I've seen in patch 4.5.1
Here's 4.5.2
1 -
While i wouldn't trust stats from small sample sizes (especially since yours are just based around who you specifically are matched against and how you play), since even the Dev's stats often are meaningless like the ones that showed nurse was the worst killer in the game with pig being forth best.
This is a horror franchise 1v4 game, The killers are supposed to feel powerful and even if they're power needs toning down over all this particular feature is not the place to be doing that.
0 -
the separated hook counter docent explicitly encourage tunneling. certainly not any more than currently provided information does, If a less experienced Killer is of the mindset to tunnel one Survivor and ignore all the others, the addition of the separated hook counter wont make any difference they are already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event.
1 -
For the same reason hook and generator aura aren't shown to survivor. Different role, different information.
It's one of the way to balance the game bringing solo closer to swf.
1
![[Deleted User]](https://forums.bhvr.com/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
