Decisive Strike perk change
Ladies and gentlemen, bois and gurls, they did it.
Comments
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Here's to hoping they add base obsession.
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And all other QoL changes solos need.
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Solos need a ton of changes, but I really hope this small one comes as it's a step in the right direction.
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This is a needed change at this point
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I doubt this will reduce the perks usage at all because it still is the only protection survivors have against tunneling, but a very welcome change indeed.
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Well the nerfs were kind of brute-strengethed into there. What if you want to stop a generator from regressing after you're unhooked? What if you get slugged for 60 seconds? What if the killer is on the other side of the map so you stop to heal, because what are you supposed to do, just sit there and wait to be slugged?
Sure, it sounds good on paper and appeased the rag-tag band of nerf DS ideologues, but it just lacks nuance and subtlety. It not only has cut down on DS' second chance capacity, but also its anti-tunnel capacity. It's just too situational, and for no good reason, to even be considered using.
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How long before it gets its first buff?
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"What if you want to stop a gen from regressing after your unhooked" Your not supposed to....its supposed to get you to safety so you can say heal up come back and jump on the gen. Its an anti tunnel perk not a "let me do my ######### for 60 seconds and ######### you killer for trying to stop me"
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I mean tapping a gen to stop it from regressing, not work on it. I said stop regression, not plot down and work on it.
Even then, DS isn't total immunity unless you're in a locker, which this nerf failed to address in the first place. Slugging is still a very fun experience, which has not been addressed at all this entire nerf. Instead, they remove any agency of the survivor and demand that they literally do nothing and just wait to be slugged.
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I mean tapping is by definition working isnt it? It adds progress doesn't it? Even then again stopping regression is proving to the perk "yeah this guys fine deactivate"
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The discussion whether or not tapping a gen is stupid or not is a moot point. Not only gen-tapping though, if you feel you are in the clear and start healing, but the killer comes back, you're screwed again. It requires that you literally do nothing.
It was never abusable. DS is a second-chance perk, that just happens to require you to be tunneled or otherwise. It's not, it will never be (with its current setup), and it should never be an anti-tunnel perk. Not only can you completely play around it by slugging, but if you're in chase the timer still goes down. It still is completely vulnerable to slugging, wearing out while in chase, and now has the added middle finger of you can't do anything and have to wait for the killer to come and slug you. It's not just bad, it's absolutely worthless. The killer can just ignore you (or pretend to), and you have to make the choice between 1) doing absolutely nothing for 60 seconds just to get slugged or 2) working on a gen, losing the entire perk, and opening yourself up to being tunneled down again.
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Cool! They nerfed We'll Make It!
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Don't be pedantic. The point of tapping isn't to add the menial .5% to the generator, it's to stop it from regressing. You aren't working on a gen in the killer's face (which was never an issue, just slug for god's sake). And that's the issue. The nerf completely fails to address the actual issues with DS, not inconsiderable among which were slugging, long chases, and lockers to an extent, but instead offers meaningless and useless nerfs with no direction to appease the mob of "DS bad."
Just because you start healing doesn't mean you aren't being tunneled. Just because you tap a gen doesn't mean you aren't being tunneled. Just because you're being slugged doesn't mean you haven't been tunneled. Just because you can loop well doesn't mean you aren't being tunneled. Just because you unhook another survivor in basement doesn't mean you aren't being tunneled. Just because you found a totem doesn't mean you aren't being tunneled. And beyond all, just because this perk tries to mutilate DS into the bloody approximation of an anti-tunnel perk doesn't mean DS should be an anti-tunnel perk. It's a second chance, for god's sake.
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Um slugging didnt work if survivors did gens in your face then jump into a locker. Or run unbreakable. Or sprint burst away. "Never abusable" it was one of the best perks for 4 years along side unbreakable. Survivors could hook trade with it say they get unhooked run to a nearby hooked survivor unhook them and now that survivor has borrowed time. You down the unhooker slug them and they just get up later either by being tapped by a teammate or unbreakable.
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Eh, I think there could be better options to choose from than to add a base obsession.
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Lockers are one case (hint hint, they failed to address that in the nerf). Every other situation, even a gen, you would lunge at them. It's not that hard.
Unbreakable can solve slugging yes (just once), but sprint burst isn't even related to slugging. You can't sprintburst away a slug.
Just because it's a good perk doesn't mean it's automatically abusable. DS was a ludicrously good second chance perk, yes, and that was the full intention. It literally said in the description, "You get a second chance and a 5 second stun lol under conditions x y and z." It's not that difficult to understand.
And, hooking multiple survivors and starting a chain of unhooking can be frustrating yes, but it's not game breaking. The only situation that would happen is if you're in close proximity to said hooks (perhaps, basement camping), and even then, you can still be tunneled after saving a survivor from the hook. You can unhook in chase, big surprise.
Moreover, the topic at hand was that this nerf was awful, not how strong DS was before. Let's try to stick to that.
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Hey, DS users, you're going to be fine.
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The counter to DS remains the same. Slugging. It has and most likely always will be the counter.
The rework did make the perk weaker yes. However it makes it way more fair.
I kind of agree about the anti-tunnel perk. And really, if a killer wants you out of a game, there isn't a perk available that will save you. If a killer is hell bent on tunneling you, neither this version of DS nor any other version of DS is going to stop him.
Now as far as old DS, the killer had zero choice but to slug or eat the stun or allow 60 seconds of gen progression.
Now the killer can choose to slug or eat the stun. It is up to the survivor to decide whether or not to commit to a gen in the killer's face or avoid it.
This change is an indirect nerf to gen speeds without actually making them longer. It forces the survivors off the gens to heal or look for another generator.
Going to ignore the gen tapping. That is a whole seperate topic.
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You will still get hit by it.
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This is not true. The killer could be returning to the hook and tapping is just that, a quick tap of the button before moving on.
*Not saying that I disagree with it turning off after a gen tap, I just disagree with this statement0 -
Just run DS and problem solved.
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Remove DS and use prove thyself.
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I'm saying it's gen tapping, I'm not sure where the confusion is.
The point of DS is to be a second chance. Jumping in a locker to force a grab is fully the intention of the perk; you're supposed to have nifty tricks to force pickups to prevent slugging.
Did you not read what I said? Unbreakable is one activation and two perks to a situational slugging is not good efficiency. You're sacrificing one perk slot in the off chance that the other doesn't work.
And as I've said before, it's a second chance perk. If you are unfortunate enough to remember old DS, it's always been a second chance in all of its iterations. Plus, even if it was an anti-tunnel perk, it would be a pretty god-awful one at that. Tunneling is more nuanced than touch a gen=no longer being tunneled. And survivors who can loop well are going to have chases a lot longer than 20 seconds, especially if the killer is so bad that they need to tunnel.
You are heavily misunderstanding what is meant by "pretending to ignore you." The killer chases after another guy, and then is free to return once you touch a gen, start healing, or literally do anything that moves the game along. It forces you into an awkward position of do I actually go do something, or do I literally just sit around and wait to be tunneled to get any use out of this. Most cases, it's the first option.
And I'm not so sure what's so hard to understand about this; tapping a gen is not significant of you not being tunneled. Neither is it the case if the killer is on the other side of the map, you think you're in the clear, you go do an objective, only to have the killer come back and tunnel the ever loving crap out of you, even when other survivors are buzzing in to try to body block. The scenario you describe is only if you get tunneled off of the hook, which is such a rare occasion that it might as well be base kit. It's more subtle than just one scenario.
And as for "wasting 60 seconds in chase," what do you think tunneling is? Tunneling is specifically going after one survivor over all other survivors. If a killer is going to hard tunnel, which I have in the past many times, they are not going to be fazed by the prospect of a measly 5 second stun or slugging for 60 seconds, after the time deducted during the actual chase.
Just because it's a 4v1 doesn't mean you're in the ideal situation. There may as well be multiple survivors on hooks or slugged, and the game is not supposed to be balanced around perfect efficiency. Why do you think people complain about SWF so much?
And after all of that, the issue still remains that DS is not an anti-tunnel perk, and even by that approximation it's a terrible, terrible anti-tunnel perk. So now, it's just stuck in employment limbo trying to find a niche. Not only will a 5 second stun not put off a hard-tunneler off of the hook, but it only activates when you are tunneled straight off of the hook. If you do anything else, whether healing, tapping a gen, or just doing an objective because you think the killer is preoccupied, you've lost your protection immediately and the killer is free to tunnel the hell out of you. Talk about abuse, when now all the killer has to do is get the survivor to an objective and they have free reign to tunnel without worrying about DS. Doesn't sound very anti-tunnel to me.
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I agree with all of what you said; but I don't think think that speaks to the merit of the actual perk itself. DS is now more dysfunctional than ever; slugging, long chases, and lockers are still in place, but now you have to juggle the possibility of giving up your only protection against tunneling at the cost of moving forward the game, based off of incomplete information. It puts you in the tough spot of choosing to preserve your DS in the off chance that you get tunneled, or actually doing a generator like a functioning member of society, all when you don't know what the killer will do, where they are, and who they'll go for.
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People tap gens while in chases. Especially if the gen is at a loop (T&L's, jungle gyms, pallet gyms, etc. etc. etc.). It's not that hard to imagine.
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“Being able to progress your objective whilst the killer can't theirs is ridiculous”. this is what I feel when the killer slugs me, specially when we are only 2 survs left and he’s looking for the 4k
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Heres your answer.
Don't do that with the gen. Run Unbreakable or get picked up by a teammate (if the Killer stops you from being picked up for 60 seconds THEY'RE throwing the game). If the Killer is on the other side of the map you're not getting tunneled.
Now DS serves its proper purpose, and you complain that it servers its proper purpose.
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If you happen to be hooked by a good loop, have dead hard/sprintburst, or the killer isn't camping you, you still have time to identify and make it to good loops. Especially if the killer isn't that great. Even then, it's a catch-22. If you loop for 60 seconds, good for you. If you don't, you get slugged. And on the point of the killer not camping, it's not that hard to pretend going for another survivor, or just getting a hit on another survivor. If you can get a hit on the meghead to make it seem like you're chasing them, all the better.
Generator regression is not meant to be constantly effective, that's a moot point. The idea is that if you're in a loop with a gen, like T/Ls, jungle/pallet gyms, miscellaneous map-specific structures, etc. you can and probably should tap it. Yes, the regression system is pretty useless most of the time and should be looked at (base kit, at least), but that's a moot point.
The key word in pretending to go after other survivors is pretending. Tunneling isn't just when the facecamping Bubba chainsaws after you when you get saved, it's just when the killer prioritizes your downing and removal from the game over others. If that means getting DS out of the way, then that will be in the arsenal. It doesn't even let you get a heal off, either. It's like when your methods seem counterproductive but further your goals in some Machiavellian way.
I don't think anybody wants a reduced slug timer. I don't get any emblem points if a survivor bleeds out, or blood points. And freezing the timer won't do much either; that's just bringing back old DS, and none of us want that.
Don't worry, I got your part about healing, which is why I'm not addressing that. Talking about having to "state this again," I'm not referring to complete immunity from DS by working on a gen. In everything other than a locker, you can slug to counter DS. Same thing applies here. Plus, sitting on a gen does not necessarily mean you are not, and moreover, will not be tunneled. If you get comfy, you can't hear the terror radius, so you begin to work on a gen, only to find out the killer was making their way back to you to tunnel the ever loving feces out of you, you're screwed. Drop the straw man, I don't think that DS should be complete immunity, and never have I suggested such a prospect. All I'm saying is that working on objectives and healing people is not an indicator of if you're being tunneled or not.
I cannot make this more clear. Slug. It's not that hard. I eat like one DS every day because I can press M1 and walk away. A survivor who is on the ground is a survivor who is not doing gens, and simultaneously a survivor in need of healing, while a survivor who is healing is a survivor not doing gens. Plus, anti-momentum perks aren't even a niche. Killers have some hinderance and slowdown perks, but there really is no killer nerfing perks on the survivor side. DS, throughout all of its iterations, has manifested as a second-chance. Surely, the killer loses some traction, but that takes a backseat to the fact that the survivor is free to roam again.
There are so many straw men in your comment I thought I was in goddamn Oklahoma. Never once have I mentioned ruin/undying, never once have I mentioned giving survivors a complete shield. It's basic reading comprehension to understand what I'm trying to say. I really can't tell if you're struggling that hard to understand my points or if you're manipulating my positions out of spite. Let it be clear that what I am saying is that this nerf sucks. Not only does it fail to identify whether or not you are truly being tunneled, it doesn't even mention the timer running out on slugs/chases, or even lockers for that matter. It could have been such an easy fix, too. Have it deactivate after 10 or 20 seconds of doing a generator, and 5 seconds of healing, not applicable while in chase. You can still do all of these actions while in a chase at the press of a button; that doesn't mean you aren't being tunneled. Have the timer slow down to a snail's pace while in chase or on the ground. Have the timer expire much more quickly while in a locker. Have it proc multiple times with a reduced stun duration to adequately address the issue of tunneling; one measly 5 second stun isn't going to stop people from tunneling. Hell, if I get DS'd by a locker or a forced grab, I tunnel even more, then face camp, hit on hook, the whole bag. And above all, remember that it isn't supposed to even be an anti-tunnel perk. It's just a ludicrously strong second chance perk.
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That fails to address the whole issue of slugging isn't the killer throwing, and doing generators is not an indication of tunneling status. If my savior is injured, I'm sure as hell going to heal them, not wait around for 10 seconds to see if the killer is coming back to hook to tunnel me.
DS' proper purpose is not to be an anti-tunnel perk. It does a god awful job at that, especially with the recent changes. One measly 5 second stun after getting hooked is not going to prevent you from being tunneled, and it doesn't even address tunneling before you get hooked, or after 60 seconds from your last hooking has lapsed. They're trying to force it into being an anti-tunnel perk while keeping vestiges of its old self, but it either needs a complete overhaul to become an anti-tunnel perk, or remain a second chance. If you're going to renovate something, renovate the whole thing.
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Maybe, don't do that then. There's no fair world where you should be invincible and still able to do your objective.
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Tapping a generator is not "doing your objective," in all but the most pedantic sense. You aren't invincible either; you can still be downed. Idiots who wave DS in my face get smacked and then left to bleed out. Remember that a survivor who's on the ground is a survivor who isn't doing gens.
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Tapping a generator to stop regression IS contributing to your objective. You are not allowed to be invincible and contribute to your objective anymore. Deal with it.
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So long ab-usable DS. Let it burn!!!!!!
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I said "in all but the most pedantic sense." Contributing less than a percentage point to a generator is not meant to move the game along; it's meant to stop regression (which is a massive joke in its own right but that's a talk for later).
Again, there's no immunity. It's not infinite mettle of man. It's you get smacked, slugged, and eventually (hopefully) healed, and for that entire duration you've been slugged, you have not been doing anything. Deal with it.
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Why wouldn't you let them heal you first if you were the one hooked???
Also, did you uh... miss the Unbreakable thing? Its a pretty cool perk you should try it. And even if you don't want to, the Killer slugging you and just standing on your heels for 60 seconds IS throwing the game. If they don't do that, you can get picked up no problem. Also, counter statement, Borrowed Time :)
DS is an amazing anti-tunneling perk, what the actual ######### are you saying. 5 seconds is equal to 20 for the Killer, as it's a 4 v 1 game. If you want me to I can do the math for you. Since I assume you don't just stand still infront of the Killer for the entire 5 second stun, it takes about 20 seconds for the Killer to catch up to you if they don't have a long range / mobility option. If they are long range, it will take longer to catch up if you broke LOS, and if they have mobility, it might be a 5-10 second time AFTER the 5 second stun. Even after 10 seconds you should be at a loop to continue wasting the Killer's time.
Also, how the ######### do you tunnel off hook before you get hooked. How the ######### do you get tunneled if the Killer left you alone for 60 seconds after you were unhooked. If you were being chased for the whole duration, the Killer just wasted 3 minutes worth of time and 3 generators should've popped, if not 4 (if your teammates know how to hold m1 on a stationary object).
DS was so obviously meant to be an anti-tunneling perk, how are so many people so ignorant to claim otherwise? Also, it wasn't ever a second chance perk. It was a straight up "you cannot" perk, for a full minute, until these changes.
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It's not "contributing less than a percentage". It's countering something the killer did, to buy time.
There is no version of this where you're right.
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It’s easy. Killers love DS now, so it’s a trash perk.
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The rare times I do play survivor, I run either inner strength or second wind. Fight me.
As for unbreakable, that's sacrificing two perk slots for the dilemma where only one of them can actually be used, in the off chance that you get tunneled off of the hook.
And DS is an amazing perk in general, but it's not meant to be an anti-tunnel perk. If you happen to be tunneled, then the 5 second second chance (meaning grasp escape) is great. Good luck dealing with when you inevitably get tunneled even more to the ground after a 5 second stun. And we can do the math for that: Survivors move at a rate of 4 m/s, a 5 second stun means 20 meters, made by default (not including the little stagger you get after stabbing somebody), and a killer runs at 4.6 m/s, 20 meters behind. 20 seconds later, the killer will have made 92 meters, survivor will have made 85 meters.
Pedantry aside, you shouldn't be holding w with a DS, you should be finding a good loop. Even then, loops can only last so long before you get downed and facecamped, and if Solo queue has taught me anything, it's that nobody knows how to deal with a face camp.
Also, how the ######### do you misread "tunneled before you get hooked" as "tunneled off hook before you get hooked?" You can still very well get tunneled without getting hooked; Bubba finds you, Bubba doesn't like you, Bubba chases you for 5 minutes and then finally hooks you. It's quite ingenious.
Have you seen old DS? Back in the old day, it was one free grasp escape at any given time. Only since the last change (meaning 60 seconds after behind hooked) did they even stipulate that you had to be tunneled. Even the devs confirmed it on one of their obscure streams: DS is a second chance, not an anti-tunnel. They're trying to mix and mash it into an anti-tunnel perk that still gives you a second chance (IE, killer grasp escape), but they aren't doing a very good job at it.
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Tapping a gen is contributing less than a percentage, in addition to ending the regression (which again, is literally nothing). There's no dichotomy here.
I really wish you would elaborate on why there's no situation where I'm right. It feels like having a conversation with a rock.
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If the regression is "literally nothing", why is it a problem to tap a gen and waste DS in the first place? Just don't do it then.
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I see a lot of discussion around gen tapping, but knowing that it deactivates DS you could just adapt and simply not do it. Not tapping a gen won't be the end of the world.
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Which is exactly what killers have to decide. If there is an obsession, killers have to assume that every single survivor is running DS. Every decision they make is based on incomplete information. Risk vs Reward. Before, DS was reward with little risk. Now we must make a tactical decision when DS is active.
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The risk for killers was a 5 second stun, which they could shirk by slugging. Now, the risk for survivors is to completely deactivate their perk, their only defense against tunneling (other than good looping but for god's sake it's solo queue).
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Solos need so much help. A chase indicator would alleviate so many problems. I wish they would have implemented something for that when they redid the UI.
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I actually played mobile once (Don't worry, I already have a therapist), and they let you see the exact item and perks your teammates were running in the lobby. Add that to the pre-game chat and you can coordinate well with random strangers.
I thought a little chase indicator would have been nice too. Maybe a little perk, letting you see the auras of any survivor in a chase and gain an objective speed bonus the closer they are to you (either that or some buff about altruism but I'm too lazy to think about it).
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Perk and items should be seen by all survivors. Us console pleebs dont get lobby chat privileges
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And I thought I was the one in need of therapy. Good luck with console adventures, you'll need it.
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I won't, both of those perks are pretty cool!
It 100% is meant to be an anti-tunnel perk, it punishes the Killer for tunneling because they have to waste even more time if they do. Also I wouldn't be opposed to DS hiding scratch marks n stuff for 10 seconds or something, either, but currently it does just fine in punishing the Killer for tunneling. Anti-tunnel :)
Also, I got my facts wrong with the time you get from DS. That's my bad there.
I was using holding W as a reference, and yeah I even said you should find a good loop earlier did I not? But yeah, solo queue can make getting caught again rough. Not much I can do about that there though, I'm not, nor do I know the CEO of face-camping.
I didn't. At all. I covered both ways your line could be taken in separate sentences. DS only affects tunneling off of a hook, though, and evidently thats the only type of tunneling that can be punished. A perk punishing a long chase would be terribly unfair, so.
I also started playing this game before the DS rework, I am painfully aware of old DS. I do think they're doing a good job with that concept, though, as DS is still a terribly effective perk in its current state, while now being fair.
Though, I believe we've reached the greatest middle ground we could with this argument and its clear we agree and disagree with statements in this thread in different ways, so I'd like to call it here and agree to disagree.
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I never considered this when previously discussing the idea of showing Survivor load outs in lobby - Thanks for the insight.
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Gottem.
If it's nothing, why are they complaining that they can't do it?
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