So... Why the Legion can't multiple times stab someone in one chase... Now?
The title is more a reminding question.
This ability especially was nerfed because it would feel too "oppressive" (not my words, its actually a dev quote).
I have never buy this argument, if I am honest, because if we really buy this argument we would also need to delete/change every one-shot ability of killers, the trap abilitiy of the hag, tricksters knife throwing abilitiy, body blocking by survs to safe their mate and gen rushing (imo).
Please put it back in.
-You don't have to change the stun after feral frenzy for it.
-Yout don't need to change the stun after a missing hit for it (because I talk only about multiple stabs that also hit and not miss).
-The only thing you have to do, actually, is to keep an eye on the Legion's addons, so that the Legion not benefits from this approach on its targets, as it has in the past.
-And you don't need to worry about that it would be to oppressive.
I have play a lot Legion to pre-rework times without addons and without addons, you were only able to stab a guy 2-3 times. That were back then not enough to down someone. Reason for that is, because survivors move fast forward after a hit from the Legion like by every other killer also (if I have not forget something).
If you don't believe me devs - try it please on a privat testserver - you wan't be able to hit a surviver in a regular chase more as 2-3 times - promise and after that the survivor has still time to flee, because of the gigantig stun after frenzy (or a miss hit).
Why I write this? May some people ask that themselfs, that know me from the past - because for a player like me who has stop playing dbd a few months after the Legion rework, dbd looks a ton better as to the time where I have actively play the game.
I like the new graphics, I like the new ui in the game, I like most of the survivor and killer changes in the time between that and now and the matchmaking seem also to be better as to my time, if I go after the news about the patches and the few times I have watch a Streamer or YouTuber in this time.
The only small thing that is missing for ->me<- right now is the thing mentioned above (to come back and play the game again).
And now, before someone with that comes up (because I know the dbd forums, believe me) -> I was most of the time a pretty fair player. More interessted in having fun and messing around, as on winning, most of the time.
Comments
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I have play a lot Legion to pre-rework times without addons and without addons, you were only able to stab a guy 2-3 times. That were back then not enough to down someone.
Why you want it back then? Explain the benefits.
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I talk just about the mentioned ability.
The rest can be, as it is now, but I would like to be the stabby guy again. Of course, still with a chance for the survivors to come away from the Legion. That is why I am ok with the stuns and have also mentioned to be aware for the devs of the addons.
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Developers finally acknowledged that he is a teen with noodle arms.
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It was fun. Really fun, even if it wasn't really effective.
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So its just to be stabby stabby with zero benefit in a chase?
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Exactly. I have also other killers play to that time (almost everyone besides hillbilly and doctor) and nothing could even compare with the fun I had with that.
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Almost. You can injure the survivor, or even down him... After 5 stabs (if I think back then). That would mean 2-3 feral frenzys on one survivor. With the stun after feral frenzy and the stun after a missing hit in mind, I believe that it would still not lead a Legion player to tunneling, at least not more as the Legion players today tunnel, because it is not a one shot ability (as mentioned already) and the stun after feral frenzy gives survivors time to leave.
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There is a reason people speak of old Legion as the most unsufferable Killer to be released ever both as play as and against (then Twins got released and took their throne as the epithome of bad game design).
I play Legion a bit and I dont want the old one back.
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That was mainly for 3 reasons:
-The Legion without addons was weak.
-The Legion had 2 exploits to this time, that a unknown number of Legion players have use over and over again until the rework got released.
-The Legion had 2, in my opinion 3 op addons to that time.
I don't want to have anything of it back. I just talk from this one abilitiy.
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Yeah I understood you want only the ability to drain Deep Wounds meter with sucessive stabs until people are downed and thats exactly what I dont want, for the Survivor it was impossible escape Legion for they outrun, outvault and ignore pallets, for Legion it was a slow way to down someone (similar to what happens with Deathslinger) so people knowing fully they couldnt win a chase and the chase was going to be slower than usual they genrushed. Also to reimplement that they would need to adjust stuff like timer on Feral Frenzy and stuff.
In the end games went like this, Legion found someone, people saw Deep Wounds, went into genrush overdrive, Legion being slow at downing people with their power and being a 110% speed Killer took their sweet time downing them and hook but people were commiting fully to gens because it was a pain to play against and wanted out. People ignored saves just to push gens, thats how disliked Legion was.
Old Legion was so disliked its said it almost killed the game.
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I had made other experiences as Legion main to that time, but as said before - I am not a tryhard and usually I just tried to have fun and let the survs their fun.
I need to say - what you say would not come back, even with the things mentioned from me, because compared to the Legion pre-rework, has the Legion today a long stun after frenzy (longer as before, more as double - far as I remember) and a stun after a missing hit. Also a bigger tr and changed frenzy speed.
Honestly said would this change only make people like me happy, that are into the stabby guys. Legion player who play on success would still play the Legion as they play it already today. Aka frenzy - dw - m1. Beeing the stabby guy today would mean frenzy - changing target because the old one is already on the other side of the map thanks to the long stun after frenzy - frenzy - changing target because.... - frenzy.
Or also maybe frenzy and then m1 if the Legion want to combine multiple stabs with m1 playstyle, but that would change for the survivors nothing, because that is what they already got today (aka one frenzy and then a finisher with m1 inclusive looping and so on).
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Problem is not everyone is like you, me too I try to give a decent experience to the other side and my games even if I 4K Survivors end up with a ton of points (unless they behave like jerks then its sweating time) but there is always going to be a bunch of people ready to use and abuse wathever they can get their hands to stomp as fast as they can.
Old Legion main problem was little input from Survivors, whoever gets targeted first gets downed wathever he tries, there was no way you could escape a decent old Legion by yourself, you could only escape if the Killer made a mistake. I understand you like that kind of gamestyle but that kind of game mechanic was easily abusable by a bunch of jerks.
In any case I may be wrong and the change would be unconsequential, they could give what you suggest in the next PTB and see what happens.
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I would love to read that they test it on ptb, but I hope that they talk then a bit about it.
I am 100% convinced that it would work but it wouldn't hurt if also Legion Mains look over it, that know the killer - best if they even know the real killer first hand before the rework -, so that they don't add op things again, but make it also not worse.
My trust in bhvr is damaged since the rework and I would feel better if they would be a bit more open about ptb things with this.
Honestly I have never really look into blood points to my time. I have only judge the matches over, if they had make me fun or not. Blood points come automatically if you just play enough and if you have also no deadline until something had to be finished, you can play very chill ;) .
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Yeah, having a killer with literally no counterplay at all in any way and who also takes absolutely zero skill and who also massively slows down games is a totally good thing.
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Old legion was literally a compete chase carrier for anyone and it literaly didn't need any skills, addons made him even worse to verse.
-Multiple stab attempts without cooldown which didn't reward the survivor for dodging and didn't punish the killer for their mistakes.
-Fast speed killers are meant to have a difficult movement in order to use their power, hillbilly cant fully move the camera during chainsaw for example, while legion can move freely in faster speed.
-With the previous point, old legion was able to down survivors easily with three stab wounds, every chase used to be less than a minute long.
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It was oppressive bc there was no counter play, plain and simple. Legion could vault pallets, windows and run faster than a survivor.
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To you and anyone like you: Please don't exaggerate. It isn't good for the discussion and it shows that you didn't know about what you are talking.
I know that are people out there, that dislike the Legion, but that is normal. There are also people out there that hate Nurse, Wraith, Meyers, Huntres, David, Kate and so on. Legion would be a bad killer, if the killer would not also have some haters.
As first, why need to be in a ->game<- punishment? Is this game a job, or some part of a prison program for inmates? I tell you guys what: Games have to make fun. If you wanna have punishment, well... That does not like everyone.
The Legion today has counterplay and the Legion back in the days had also counterplay. Also I have the feeling that some guys here have not really read my postings and more important: understand them.
Alone the argument "counterplay" shows that. So go please back and read or I will just mark you guys in my mind as people who do not know about what they talk.
I have the strong opinion that dbd is ill, because of the community. Everybody in the community has its wishes, but as soon as they talk about them, guys come up and try to talk them down and thanks to this behavior - the toxic and bad mood in the community will never change.
If you guys are interessted in a better community, you should raise your voices - but also accept other ideas and players, not only the ones in your years old circles. Thanks.
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While you are technically correct that the new legion has some counterplay, I believe bringing back the ability to stab somebody in deep wounds again would be a mistake.
The purpose of Feral Frenzy is for team-slowdown and mobility - it's not there to shorten chases. What you are proposing just makes Legion a better tunneler. And while I personally don't have an issue with tunneling, I'd rather you don't give a killer an ability that makes tunneling the most efficient way to play them. Legion is already a bit of a one-trick poney. Your proposal will just turn him into a one-trick pony that tunnels.
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I don't believe so, because:
-After every stab, a survivor would still move fast forward, how he does it by every m1 hit from every killer I know. That is the reason why you can only stab someone 2-3 times in 1 frenzy (have old frenzy times in mind, don't know how much would be possible with the new frenzy time, but that is ptb stuff).
-The Legion would still have this mega stun after frenzy. If you have now in mind that the Legion needed 5 stabs in the days back then, we talk here about 2-3 frenzys (depending on luck and skill of the Legion and the survivor). So, with that in mind is tunneling pretty unattractive in my eyes.
How I see it - you make your two stabs and the survivor is gone - thanks to the stun (if he stays not on purporse somewhere near the Legion, but some guys you can't help, no matter how many penalities a killer has) and then you need to search either the survivor again, or go over to the next.
It would be even less effective in my eyes, as to do it on the traditional way: Aka put deepwounds on him and m1 the survivor after a loop. The only benefit for the Legion would be, that it makes for the player fun, if he is into stabbing and that is with the Legion in mind something, that should be possible, because that was something the Legion could do in the past and also the Legion is getting advertised as such a killer still today, if you watch the longer Legion trailer who is still on the DBD - YouTube Channel up. What I wanted to say is: Some people may like to play after what they have seen in this video.
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I too like to play against killers with 0 counterplay. very fun and interactive, yes, yes.
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And now say me where I write something about 0 counterplay?
Have you even read my last posting? *head shaking*
Reads nothing, but puts his line here in :|
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Problem with your logic is that the Legion has every reason to keep going after that wounded survivor at this point like the old Legion.
If this power wasn't coupled with the ability to ignore Windows or Pallets, I'd consider it. But because FF is tied to it, it's a automatic no-go.
We tried the ability to keep stabby stabby on the old Legion, it sucked and the playerbase hated it. You aren't going to get any support for this idea.
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Even back in the days I had people know who had like it, but that is besides the point now.
Today the Legion does either:
-Frenzy dw, stun, m1 finisher.
-Makes everything as pure m1 killer, because the long stun after frenzy makes you often think if you really need frenzy now.
With the change (I don't even use the words buff, or nerf on purporse because it wouldn't be either the first, nor the second in my eyes):
-Frenzy dw 2 stabs, stun, m1 finisher.
or:
-Frenzy dw 2 stabs, stun, frenzy dw 2 stabs, stun, frenzy dw 1 stab.
If you now think about it, survivors would even better of with the last solution if we just go after what is succesfull and what not.
And if you now would like to ask me, why I should use the worst option over the better? Because of fun. Fun is not always rational.
Edit: Of course "-Makes everything as pure m1 killer, because the long stun after frenzy makes you often think if you really need frenzy now." would also still work.
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I don't accept "ideas" that are unhealthy for the game and were proven like that by receiving one of the biggest nerfs in the game, just like decisive strike.
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You haven't even read the idea, so you have no reason to complain about something.
If you complain about something, you should at least know about what. That is the bare minimum. Btw. as someone who had play 99% of his Legion matches without any addon above brown, I can tell you that there was counterplay.
Not without a reason have the people say that the Legion was weak. Maybe that was also a reason why some people have so often run into Legions that have have either exploit, or use the op addons, because again... Otherwise she was weak. All the "op Legion videos" on YouTube have 1 thing common: They are played by someone who has either exploit and/or use the op addons.
To pre rework times, I have seen nearly a dozen of such videos and really in every single one of those videos I had either saw the Legion player exploiting, or using a Legion with op addons, never without or as a maximum the brown addons.
I have not 1 video saw, where a Legion player said that the Legion is op, while he was playing without addons. Not 1!
And that should us left with the question, why?
As said before, because of my playstyle to that time, I know why.
Btw. what the topic unhealthy matters: Pre rewok Legion times, Steam has not shown high peaks of leaving players. Afterwards, we have seen such a peak.
Sure, some people have rant here and in other forums, but the most people rant without consequences.
With that I wanted to say, that all the people that have complain over the Legion still play the game, some that have not complain don't play the game anymore.
What me matters, so I have play since the rework ... Mhm ... maybe 10 games. All have in common that they were test matches for me.
A test if I can have still fun with this new version of the Legion or not, or later as if I were sure about my opinion to that, if the one or other change of the Legion is still in the game.
I for my part will not play this game, as long as I can't have with a killer such fun again, like with the Legion before.
And again, I don't need to have a op killer for me. You can see as evidence even this thread: I have nothing write in here that would be op. I doubt even that the average survivor would notice such a patch, besides "uh, why needs the Legion now 3 frenzys to hook me, instead of 1 like before".
But you can breathe now. I see that here in the forums are still some unhealthy guys for the community so I have uninstall DBD again.
If the devs ever decide that there is also a place for people like me in dbd, who like to stab things and a faster gameplay, I will might come back if I am aware of such a patch and not some other companie has already grab that idea up in the time between, but without any chance to have fun I can't play that game, since fun is for me the only reason to play a game.
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Dude I had read enough with your first essay in this thread chile can you like use short sentences and paragraphs. I'm not complaining about anything, you are. You want old legion back and I'm saying that's not happening for obvious reasons you refuse to accept, but instead, you're just saying "uhm yeah there was counterplay I swear I played legion back then" like ok me too, but there wasnt any counterplay, any example you try to give is useless unless you show actual footage, and if you don't own any of those days, drop it.
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Personally, I want Legion to not be taken out of his Feral Frenzy when he misses an attack. He should just get a missed-attack cooldown.
On console, losing your power when you whiff is... it's punishing killers for things they have no control over, like fps drops and the poor controls. It needs to be changed.
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If you think that my ideas would bring the old Legion back, are your memories full of gaps. Or you don't know how the Legion today works. Anyways.
Btw. I know that I lost myself sometimes in long paragraphs, but changes on a game should be detailed as possible and also I need to debunk the lies, that coming over and over again in those forums from people who do not like to let other people their fun, if they have not the same attitude like them.
So... If you have something against long paragraphs, start to not exaggerate. Would some of my lines shorten.
A pattern I have always seen by people who were against it is, that they always wanted to see evidence, while they have never evidence by themself, to back up what they are saying. That is why I have no problem at all with that.
A counterplay video to the old Legion can you find here (it is also a good one since no Legion in this video uses exploits, or op addons, far as I remember and so we can stick to the truth, instead on obvious things that went wrong):
That sounds terrible, but I need to admit, that I have never play DBD on a console. I don't even have one.
Many people see the long stun after frenzy as something terrible, that has gone too far. Once I had done it by myself, but imo, this long stun can also be a opportunity. Aka. he could also be the reason to throw the mentioned stun from you away.
The stun after frenzy is long enough, so that the Legion lost its target in the most chases. It is also the longest stun in the game, far as I know and that should come with some benefits, imo.
Especially since the Legion makes nothing wrong, besides using his power, to get punished everytime with this stun.
Edit: If the Legions in this video were op to someone... Well, then are left without words.
Post edited by Talmeer on1 -
There’s a reason why anytime I encounter a Legion they never use their ability. They just go straight for the M1. The ability is pointless except for quick travel across the map lol
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Sort of... If you are lucky you can still find people sticking together against the Legion, or if you for whatever reason can't find any survivor it still has its usage. But besides such rar situations I have also never use frenzy with the new Legion.
You just have no advantage in a average situation like other killers have (most of them) with your "special" abilitie.
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BECAUSE 👏🏻
THAT’S 👏🏻
NOT 👏🏻
WHAT 👏🏻
LEGIONS 👏🏻
POWER 👏🏻
IS 👏🏻
FOR 👏🏻
You keep bringing this up, and no matter how many times you ask this, it is not, and was NEVER meant to be used this way.
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You can't tell me a 23 minutes video of the day 1 of Legion's PTB from a killer main youtuber is a counterplay, you still didnt specify what it is, people just pressed find match with the new killer selected without reading the power description beforehand. Try again.
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Thats easy to say now that Legion has been reworked and their design consolidated. But at the time of release I don't think anybody knew what Legion's power was for, even (or especially) the devs.
Release Legion was simply a mess. Feral Frenzy didn't last long enough to effectively spread the pain and there where many, many incentives to stab survivors to death as a viable play style even without the poorly tought deep wound mechanic that could be abused with moonwalking and other terror radius shenanigans.
The Legion rework that came months after showed a clear design intent by removing all thoses incentives to use Feral Frenzy in a lethal way while extending its duration to make it easier to spread. It went too hard in the nerf direction and Legion was left in a sorry state for a ittle while, but they've been slowly buffed here and there since then.
This is not a rant againt the devs. This just demonstrate that they are human and faillible. They try stuff with their designs and sometimes it works, others it doesn't.
Anyway its pretty clear now that the devs don't want deep wound depletion to be a viable playstyle for the Legion, wich makes you wonder why Frank's Mixtape and Stab Wound Study still exist. But lets not pretend it was never a thing that defined this killer for months and months until the devs knew the direction they wanted to take them.
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Which sucks because Legions power is at its worst when only used for map mobility. If used properly, it keeps the Survivors injured, allowing all chases to be ended with one M1 and a hook right after. Yes, it's easy to counter (spread out, heal, stay spread out), but when it works, it's very efficient at allowing Legion to juggle the Survivors and set the pace of the trial. Using it for map mobility is just robbing the Killer of the benefit it actually provides.
That said, I feel that this wouldn't be as much of an issue if Legion wasn't so heavily penalized. Those QoL changes Legion players have been asking for would really help push the Killer in the right direction, and make using Legion properly feel better.
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Really? sighs
What you have seen there was the Legion without op addons. Aka. that was the Legion outside of the 2 exploits and outside of using powerful addons.
Every guy who has experience with the Legion without those things will tell you the same, if he is honest too you.
Do you really think that all those attention catching streamers would have not shown a addon-less Legion without addons, if a op playstyle with it would have been possible? o_O Sure they would have. That you can believe. Even bhvr itself has multiple times said that the pre-rework Legion was weak, especially also after the rework. They haven't said this with Franks Mixtape in mind, or the exploits, -they have said it with the basekit in mind.
And what should I tell you more?
I have wrote my idea here multiple times down. Imo, the idea is easy to understand if someone really reads it and know the Legion of today and if you ask me for counterplay to the Legion of the past, or to the Legion today - then the video helps you to the Legion of the past and if you want to, I can even write something to the Legion of today, but it will be a long posting and since you haven't even understand my idea, it is questionable if you would read a even longer posting, since then we speak not anymore from just an idea.
Btw. where is your evidence that the Legion was op without addons? Where are the videos? Anyways, it was just a rhetoric question, since you can't give me, what not exist.
You mean I should then ask one more time? *head on equipped*
I only visit these forums now and then anyway, since I was part of the "leaving-dbd-wave-after-the-Legion-rework", which was to see on Steam before you ask.
Sometimes I just like to know if dbd has gone more open towards new playerbases (as always the same), aka. with the necessary new concepts for it, or not. If yes and they would put something like my idea (or also others) in the game then yes. If not, then no and I stay again like perhaps others away from DBD.
Almost every idea I have read here on the forums where good, besides the ones that let the Legion change through their members, imo. Because then I fear that swf's have a too easy play with the Legion, since they just need to warn their mates via a mic. if the Legion switches to a other mate, or depending on the idea - to a survivor.
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I think it's fairly obvious we won't see any major rework of Legions power, so most Legion players only ever ask for QoL changes anymore. You still see a few people that ask for radically different reworks, but MOST people agree that simply removing his power penalty for M1 and reducing his fatigue based on the amount of targets hit would be enough to make him a solid mid-tier, which would be fine. Imagine penalizing a Killer for trying to be lethal...
As it currently stands, however, his performance tends to be below-average, with SOME scenarios cropping up that boosts him, though these are few and far between.
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I hope I read it one day on the patch notes. Even I am not sure if bhvr ever touches again the fatigue after frenzy, because it seems to be their major control mechanism for the Legion. Sadly. But maybe I am wrong with that. Every change would be appreciated, I assume.
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Oh ya, I hope so too. It's a relatively small change that would only bump his potency up a notch or two, which would make him consistently mid-tier, but it would be enough to make him feel much more rewarding to play. MandyTalk even agreed that those two changes would be pretty nice, so I'm hoping that BHVR feels the same way. (ie: "Well, it's not a HUGE buff and would be easy to implement, so ya, we could do that")
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Actually, the way they are describing this I think it would be less effective than playing Legion as he is played now (with the added benefit of giving him SOME agency when he needs to actually go for a down)
Legion already loses scratch marks in Feral, so it's a complete lie to say he can't be countered out of Feral frenzy if he were to regain this trait. His momentum can work against h and a well timed juke will trigger a miss and long stun (as he works now) so I think giving him some incentive to re-stab the same survivor (for some benefit, whether that be reduced mend time or some other debuff. Hell, maybe even a buff of some kind instead for Legion) wouldn't be a big deal, especially since you can no longer moonwalk chase survivors to get cheesy downs (which was the only real issue of old legion as far as being unfair to play against goes)
Right now, the counterplay to legion is simply spread out, rush gens when you see the mend bar under someone, and if he finds you first and rushes, just tank the hit so you can get back to rushing gens while he ######### off into the sunset. Good legions who aren't getting any aura triggers after a hit will just try to cancel out and chase you anyway, but they have to deal with the stun that's usually enough time to get to a loop if you're aren't on the dead zone, meaning he gets meager reward in getting an initial hit from frenzy. Giving him back some incentive to stab someone multiple times not only makes a lot more sense from a character and lore perspective (Unless I missed the part about commiting multiple hit and runs) but it would make his power more useful than simply being a melee attack with a minor inconvenience and a decent tracker mechanic attached.
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You got it to 100%. Makes me after this discussion more happy as it should maybe :).
If we tear it down it would really be just:
-That nothing changes for the survivors, besides that they getting stabbed now more often as before (depending on the playstyle of the Legion player - he can of course still ignore everything and just m1 everyone on the traditional way).
-Give some Legion players finally a reason to use Feral Frenzy more often.
-Give some Legion their fun back, almost without consequences, because all of the control mechanism of bhvr over the Legion would still be intact.
Because nothing else will change. It is that simple.
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