MoM vs DH: Dead Hard is far too strong to be an exhaustion perk.
Mettle of Man allows a survivor to take an additional hit in the injured state after earning the endurance status effect. This is earned by first taking 3 protection hits, and then (quite fairly) has a downside if the survivor is ever healed to healthy.
In other words, the devs thought that MoM provides enough of a strong enough advantage that it requires stringent conditions to earn it, and requires a downside if used successfully.
On the other hand, the BS that is Dead Hard, in theory, can be used every 40 seconds, which for all intents and purposes avoiding a hit is pretty much the same as being able to take an additional hit. Oh, and with the additional game breaking benefit of extra distance.
It’s pretty much any chase a survivor is in. They will always be able to use DH once in their chase. Which will be a lot, because in most instances they’ve used it just to get the right amount of distance to avoid a hit AND have reached a strong loop that could keep the killer occupied for another 30 to 60 seconds, meaning it’s (another) chase that needs abandoning.
Compared to other exhaustion perks, the very brief time DH is active, it paradoxically buys a survivor an absurd amount of extra time compared to all other exhaustion perks. It’s simply too strong to remain as an exhaustion perk. It just shouldn’t be able to be used as often as it can. Particularly now that exhaustion add ons are being abolished.
“Oh it’s perfectly fine to cleanse and remove an entire killer perk PERMANENTLY, but cheesus forbid that survivors are denied using one category of their strongest perks...”
For the record, I’m not saying Hexes should be changed. They’re fine. It’s perfectly reasonable that they can be removed from the game.
My proposals for Dead Head is that it should NOT be an exhaustion perk.
A) Like MoM, it should have criteria that needs to be met to EARN one use of DH in the injured state, and then the criteria needs to be EARNED AGAIN if they want to be able to use DH again in the same trial.
B) No earning criteria, just have it like DS: it can be used ONCE and ONCE only. Think about this seriously. Could you imagine the outrage if DS wasn’t once only use and it were also an exhaustion perk. Old MoM was broken, but could you imagine if THAT was an exhaustion perk (not requiring the 3 hits first).
C) Get rid of it as a stand alone perk, keep it as an exhaustion ability BUT amalgamate it into No Mither. This makes No Mither much less of a handicap, and for those WANTING the advantages DH provides HAS TO WILLINGLY take on the disadvantages No Mither provides.
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I think its fine as is. It gives distance? Every exhaustion perk gives distance. Arguably DH gives the least.
Activation? Requires injury. 1 hit down killers ignore it. Exhaustion addons can ignore it.
Ignore a hit? Doesn't really work most of the time and you just get exhausted on the floor anyway. Or just bait the hit? idk
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All I know is that DH is the most nonsense overpowered perk.
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Where have you been hiding. In a few weeks there will be no exhaustion add ons.
Only Mindbreaker & Blood Echo.
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Finally someone has said it lol
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The time DH buys you depends on how strong the loop is you reach. So not DH is the problem, the problem is the strong loops which buy a survivor so much time.
With less strong loops DH would be a lot weaker.
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And that’s all you need imo.
Blood echo is fantastic when combined with mangled add ons or plague and legion
Mindbreaker is great with tinkerer, trail of torment and moniter
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"jUsT BAiT iT oUt LoL"
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In other words, the devs thought that MoM provides enough of a strong enough advantage that it requires stringent conditions to earn it, and requires a downside if used successfully.
Thats where you are wrong. The backlash to MoM was the reason. To the Devs, the effect was perfectly fine to activate after normal hits.
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Even in its original iteration, it required conditions greater than DH to activate. I.e. you didn’t automatically gain endurance the first time you are injured.
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Still there was no avoiding it once it activated. No timing involved or being somewhere useful. Any hit was ignored.
I had games where a fully healed survivor casually walked out the exit gate. All because MoM was ready.
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Is this the new thing to complain about all the time now that DS has been nerfed?
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Thats not true though huntress still has exhaustion addons
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i feel like sprint burst & lithe give survivors way more distance than dead hard, plus they can be used while healthy.
dead hard’s prerequisite is you have to be injured to use it. it doesn’t give you much distance. survivors can use it to make a window/pallet, then what? stay on them & next time you get close, they’re down. also, the perk barely works. exhausted on the ground is a thing.
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I think that all the exhaustion perks are different enough that they should get individual tweaks like for instance lithe im fine with having a 40 second exhaustion timer, but SB and DH should at the very least have a significantly longer timer
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A perk that gives less distance than all the other exhaustion perks only after being injured, but also can (maybe) make the killer whiff? Must be overpowered!
Dead. Hard. Is. Fine.
All other exhuastion perks give distance. Just because Dead Hard does it in a slightly different way doesn't make it OP.
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What we have now was fought for with many casualties.
Respect the vets.
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respect the vets lmao
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Hardly new. DH has been a source of contention for many for a long time.
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She still has hers in the current PTB?!
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Maybe, but now that DS has been nerfed there's 8738737 topics about DH popping up.
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They’ve always been there mate. They’re just not overshadowed anymore.
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Yes. They're 5 seconds.
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Well that’s a surprise.
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yes
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Venomous concoction is 5s down from 90s exhaustion
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I get that it used to be so much worse but that doesn't mean it doesn't need more changes
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If mettle of man is being used as our baseline of balance then literally every perk in the game needs to be nerfed because mettle of man is complete dog #########
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It’s still surprising that it’s there at all though, considering the trend with other add on passes.
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It’s not being used as a baseline for every perk in the game. For all intents and purposes, being able to take an extra hit (endurance) is almost exactly the same as being able to avoid a hit the killer would have otherwise legitimately landed. Except DH can be used way more frequently than MoM.
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people really need to understand that while dead hard gives less distance than lithe or SB, it gives this distance PRECISELY when you need it.
sb? only at the start of a chase.
lithe? very first vault. and depending on the location, you might have to stay in the loop anyway.
the pallet one? gotta hit a pallet on the killer.
balanced? only after a drop, that some maps don't even have.
dead hard? exactly when you need it.
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Except your reasoning for nerfing DH is that it's much stronger than MoM. That argument doesn't hold much water when MoM is literally so bad it's often worse than having no perk at all since the effort it takes to activate detracts from time you could be spending doing gens
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Precisely. Which is exactly why it disproportionately extends a chase much greater than any of the other exhaustion perks. (Often usually requiring abandoning at that point because the killer can not afford anymore wasted time, giving that survivor the time they need to recover their DH exhaustion for the next chase, to engage in the same BS as before).
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This is completely false.
The majority of complaints about Dead Hard since 2017 have been about being exhausted on the ground and not working, not that the perk is OP.
Almost 4 years later with no changes whatsoever and suddenly now it's a problem for Killers, yeah sure.
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This, plus the fact that DH can be used
- as third healthstate like MoM, because with both of them you get to effectively ignore when a killer played their cards right and should have hit.
- for distance, like SB, Lithe, BL, and Smash Hit
And, remember, on demand.
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This is such a dumb post.
Dead Hard is the strongest exhaustion perk in the game. It involves no setup, no exhaustion management, and has the biggest benefits: i-frames and used for distance on command whenever you want.
Most killers don't have one shot ability, irrelevant. Exhaustion add ons are being removed or nerfed heavily to basically be useless.
People who say "bait out dead hard" and "it barely works half the time" showcase their lack of experience going against the perk and just a lack of knowledge about survivor perks in general.
Dead Hard is so weak and doesn't work half the time, but yet is seen all the time in red ranks and is always part of meta builds and is the most used exhaustion perk for more skilled players. Because survivors love running meta builds but accompanying them with ######### exhaustion perks for the memes.
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Another day on the forums, another DH thread and again and again full of absurd agruments.
First and foremost your very first sentences start with a big nonsense and show such complete lack of knowledge of game mechanics that I wasn't even sure if I want to read it all. Saying and I quote "avoiding a hit is pretty much the same as being able to take an additional hit" is just so so so wrong that I am not sure if u are trolling or just mad about the perk in general and so you do not think when you type this ? Shall I tell why it is not the same ? First taking a hit makes a) the killer to stop for few second in a place cleaning his weapon b) gives a speed boost to the survivor who got hit creating a huuuge distance betwen him and the killer if he decides to run away ofc c) the killer lose his bloodlust which is super important also currently. Missing a hit makes the killer to stop for a very very very short time not even close to an actual hit. The distance you gain from the DH is nowhere near close to what you gain from being hit. If u get hit u can run probably from one side on a decent map to another with no problems unelss you play vs BIlly or another killer with ability to move faster /or save the best is in play/. Vs DH you are stucked around the same spot. And yes the killer wont lose bloodlust either if he missed a hit which is super important.
From here everything else you said wont make much sense since you created your entire point on something you thought was the same but it is not obviously so what are we even talking about. Not the mention the avoiding part is extremely hard with DH vs any competent killer. Only the disitance gain is really really helpfull but that is something ANY exhausting perk can provide.
Also you failed to provide how so the perk "buys a survivor an absurd amount of extra time compared to all other exhaustion perks". Getting to another loop is something any exhausting perk in the game can do, it just requires different activatiion to happen. Also any exhausting perk can be activated once every time you chase someone it is not just DH and again will create disatance.
And no u cannot use it every 40 seconds - whichful thinking but sadly it works just once in a chase
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You’re completely ignoring the point.
If MoM gave endurance EVERY TIME a survivor was injured andonce per chase, without needing to gain protection hits first, wouldn’t that be a problem?!
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I’ve been on these forums for years (this is my second account). My claim isn’t false at all.
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Thanks for highlighting your immense lack of intelligence.
When I made the comparison for avoiding a hit is alike to taking an additional hit, specifically saying FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, my point was BOTH extend a chase by a significant amount, AND give the survivor the additional distance required to reach their next strong loop or structure.
The distance other exhaustion perks provide is not as “on demand” as DH.
Also I said IN THEORY regarding the perk being used once every 40 seconds. This is not an actuality during normal gameplay. My problem is that the design of the perk allows this to be possible, regardless of how remote that possibility is.
Conversely MoM allows for the possibility for endurance more than once per match, but look at how improbable that is.
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also, mettle of man's health state is superior to that of dead hards, it works anywhere and gives you the 150% for 2 second on hit speed boost. Dead hard when used for distance is practically just the extra health state with no speed boost.
Dead hard only works near a pallet or window
Mettle of man works anywhere
mettle of man requires so much more effort because it mostly provides better protection than dead hard, the only exception being trapper traps.
Even with that though, it is very widely considered that mettle of man is an underpowered perk, if anything, mettle of man should be buffed to gain tokens on any action that would give you a WGLF stack or the number of protection hits required should be reduced to 2.
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Just bait it. It's not overpowered.
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You can keep you thanks back cause u need it .
"my point was BOTH extend a chase by a significant amount" - and here I explained with as many possible words how that is not true since gaining A LOT of distance when you get hit by getting speed boost is not "alike" to a very small distance with no speed boost that you gain when you avoid a hit. If you cant undrstand that, please don't talk about intelligence - it is just rude.
"The distance other exhaustion perks provide is not as “on demand” as DH". Different perks - different mechanics. If all the perks would act the same this would be a very boring game already. I can easly argue that all the other exhausing perks are pretty bad /with the expection of Sprint Burst/ for so many reason and instead they should just buff them so people actually start using them.
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MoM was that. it used to give you a free dead hard every 3rd basic attack. It was wonderful time to play killer, Dead hard+Borrow time+MoM+Decisive strike with med kit+old instant heals. Thank goodness Nurse omega blink and 5 blink nurse was in the game, hitting a survivor 5 times per chase was really something. It was pretty common to see this x4 in every lobby.
I think its matter of tolerance level. Dead hard makes every survivor have 3 health states, but one of them is positional health state. I think it would be better if it was more situational than guaranteed distance gain into ultra safe pallet/windows. If the perk was "Gain Endurance for 2 seconds" with no deep wound, it would fix issue of latency messing up the dead hard dash because it would work like status effects like debuff which I think are client sided based instead of server sided and those are applied instantly. you can't have a "delayed" borrowed time on the floor if you know what I am getting at. It would also increase variance of the perk whether a skilled looper would get value out of the perk instead of producing guaranteed value(for skilled loopers).
Still solution wouldn't be perfect. You would be able to press dead hard and run in straight line for 2 seconds to a pallet/window zero risk of getting downed but you would not benefit from sprint burst as you would be locked into animation of vaulting/throwing down pallets but I guess that is just nature of this perk. It is not S-tier for no reason.
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Once I got used to dead hard I find it to be a very useful but risky perk to use. It can get you downed if you time it wrong or use it at the wrong spots. You need to consider that 40 seconds in a game like this is a long time. We also can't run while exhausted if we want it to wear off so its not like we have it on all the time. If survivors are using DH a lot in your matches then you're letting them stay hidden long enough to be able to use it again. DH is far from being overpowered especially compared to things like NOED and that new killer perk that makes you exposed.
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I understand your argumen ts.
Infact
What does an exhaustion perk?
It allows you, under certain conditions, to gain extra distance during a chance.
What does SB do?
Even if you are very close as a killer, the Survivor is able to activate it at every moment to avoid you and make it to another pallet.
What does BL do?
The Survivor can bait you into chasing him just to jump of a great height to gain enough distance to make it to the next pallet or window.
What does Lithe do?
Whenever a Survivor wants to he can vault something to gain some extra distance to make it to another pallet or window.
What does Dead Hard do?
Whenever a Survivor feels like not making it to the (mentioned) pallet or window, he can press a button to get the distance to make it to the pallet or window.
What's the point?
Most exhaustion perks does the exact same as Dead Hard. It's more likely that they do it during the beginning at a chase, not at the very end like Dead Hard.
So you have no arguments why Dead Hard is stronger than any other perks. Heck. There a plenty arguments why it's even worse.
The only difference between DH and most other exhaustion perks? DH denies the hit at the very end. You had a full chase and are able to end it and NOW Dead Hard wants the extra distance.
The other perks does the opposite. At the very beginning of a chase they want their extra distance so you feel more like "whatever".
If it happens at the end of a long chase it feels more punishing.
>>>All the exhaustion perks does the exact same. <<<<
Dead Hard is very risky and very high end.
But it does nothing other exhaustion perks already do. So it's not op. It's just not fun to go against.
My opinion? Since Bloodlust is a thing, I think it's fair. You get some distance just for free. For the most exhaustion perks you have to do something, at least.
So until BL exists I don't mind. And still, I know some other perks (On the killers end) that are pretty annoying and way to punishing. And they also need some tweaks.
So. People deal with Bloodlust making game changing decisions (and yea, every centimeter counts) and the opponents have to deal with exhaustion perks making game changing decisions. Just fair.
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Its these new killers that have been playing for a few days complaining about it.
I honestly laugh every time I see these posts because it has to be embarrassing for the poster when they learn how to play the game
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You really are ignorant if you think I’ve only been playing for a few days.
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Nerf it allready. It was more urgent than DS ever was. It's so a outright broken perk.
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Can be counted for though.. avoid unnecessary risks 😂 soon as I see DH activated, you're all screwed 😂
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Perhaps it sounds too strong on paper but simple reality is, for the average survivor DH will extend a chase by a few seconds at best. Yes, in theory it can be an extra health state and can double the length of a chase, however this is in the hands of a skilled survivor, and unfortunately you can’t balance this game like that and you must take heavily into account the vast number of potato’s. DH will probably get nerfed regardless due to the relentless complaining.
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