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Solos should not be buffed for a long time, calling out Scott jun.
Sorry but any talk or actions of such is a terrible idea, we all know and even the devs know and have acknowledged that rank means very little, 2 survivors in red rank currently can be so different it's insane.
So why would we talk about buffs when the ranking doesnt mean anything... because when mmr does come out guess what, you just buffed all those good solo players. I legit just had a game where someone the same rank as me just crouched and hid round one corner of the map by the time a done a full solo gen, seen her later missing every skill check yet I nearly always hit greats, know every tile, map, perks, killer counters etc. Yet were the same rank. Do you actually monitor and see how little your team actually do generators or know how to loop?
YOU CANNOT BUFF SOLOS. Do people not remember high mmr games? Even Scott Jun who now supports swf and say solos need a buff hated the mmr because of how stupid hard it was... they was mostly solos but now you want them buffed??? What? Or are we now saying all good players at high mmr are swf? Because that's not true...
Yes people make mistakes vs swf, but saying solos need a buff is wrong. You cannt buff people who are still learning, because when they do learn they're now much stronger. When people say swf is the stronger role they arent including teammates that cant play.
But what does my opinion matter, I'm not a streamer. It's not like my experience since game launch, consistently doing well against all types of killers, knowing pretty much everything you wish to know about the game (except addon names). As someone who plays solo near 90% of the time, the other 10% with my misses who btw struggles alot btw, I'd still perk her over a random, why? Coms...
(Btw I dont group up with other good randoms because of the advantages) if you think coms dont provide any advantage then you're lying to yourself. Sure not everyone will be doing every fallout but every bit of info helps. Remember swfs would be weaker if they was solo. Not because solo sucks because of the inefficiency that can happen when off coms which is a normal part of the game and its balanced that way.
All respect to scott and other players, but no I'm sorry buffing solos isn't a good idea till mmr has been out at least half a year for things to adjust to the system.
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I also think buffing solo or nerfing swf is pointless when matchmaking is horrible as it is.
I really hope MMR will be good
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This is actually what i have suggested in the past as well.Hitting r4 should totally be hard and meaningful.
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If mmr does work out I can see some base killer things being improved from base regression to base kick. Honestly when mmr was last a thing I wasnt enjoying survivor as much, like dont get me wrong Escaping was cool but the games was over pretty fast with such few hooks/chases it wasnt much fun. Spawns is an issue which more people understand now streamers can show it via the nemesis perk. Call me old fashioned but games are meant to be fun, that means for everyone no matter the side..
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Well this became a bigger issue after the old ruin nerf and the rank reset change. Before alot of players couldnt hit greats often enough to rank up along side the ranking putting them so far back they didnt progress, while now the only way to really not reach red rank is to be camped, or do soinsanely bad. People want killers to play more fair and in a fun way, cool everyone likes chases etc. But if the killer players that way often you're pipping. But agreed rank should somewhat mean something
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You miss the point of the argument as it isn't about the strength of the survivors on an individual skill level it is about the gap between SWF and solo teams. Since you won't be able to take away coms from a SWF.
The idea behind it is if the gap between a group of the same people in solos or as a SWF is less apparent, then it would be easier to balance the game out in a manner where it would not matter as much if the killers deals with all solo, duos mixed in, trios or a full squad.
As you point out the game is being balanced around the solo experience, yet Killers do not exclusively play against them and have to deal with SWF teams to some degree quite often. As a result it makes the killer experience more difficult, as a duo, trio or full squad means the balance shifts towards the survivors. You shouldn't punish players for playing in a group or as a solo, equalize the two to make it less important and balance around that is by far the best approach. You should be able to group up with other good players you meet and not feel bad about it because it provides to much advantage.
This is the argument people state, shift the balance by adjusting solo play into be more inline with SWF and simultaneously adjust killers to match.
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But the way MMR works, in theory, would propel more and more buffed solo survivors into mid-high MMR trials and drastically shorten the que times, so that once the numbers have settled you have this teeny tiny percentage of the population playing what is essentially competitive DbD (or just AU servers in the evenings, courage to all my high rank AU killers, we will pull through this into the realm of not having to deal with 4-minute gen averages and can maybe stop playing genuinely near-perfectly or just playing Nurse, Blight or Spirit in order to stand a chance), and the rest chilling out having 8-minute trials.
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solos just need that "info chat menu" to being able to say if they are working on gens, or want to be unhooked.
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You’re missing a vital part of the idea which is that once solos are buffed, killers are then buffed as well.
The idea isn’t to just buff survivors in general, it’s to close the gap between four solos and a 4 man SWF. Then you’re able to balance survivors and killers more easily because there won’t be such a big disparity between solo and SWF. (In theory, anyway.)
It’s great that you’re good at the game and whatnot but the kinds of buffs people ask for probably won’t buff survivors like you significantly in any case. It’s not like people are asking for an extra 5% move speed or faster repairs or whatever. They typically just want more information at base, the kind of information that comms give you like a totem counter, or an indication that your teammate is being chased.
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Giving survivors X amount of perks for free because they arent on coms isn't a good idea, the game itself is balanced for solos and inefficient plays. For your unhook example that's kindred, that's giving every solo kindred as base to be on par with swf. Now the list of perks swfs can do just via coms is alot not to mention things that arent in perks like exact hex locations (not just totem locations)
I dont feel people want near every killer buffed to be able to compete with such levels of play. The last mmr was a joke how easy survivor actually was with a full good team even as a solo. Buffing most killers and reworking most perks and changing certain map layouts just isn't a smart choice. That's so much work and not to mention a killer without gen defense is an easy win, especially if everyone is on par and that's a base game issue. I as a solo dont need a buff, if I need certain info etc. There are perks for that, the biggest issue atm is ranking, when that's fixed then you can talk about changes. BUT ONLY THEN. Because I bet even just a working mmr will prove most killers arent good at certain levels of play even if you play them very well. Like last mmr was turned on I escaped near every game, that shouldn't happen.
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Yeah mmr is a problem. When it actually worked killer was miserable at high skill unless like you said very good nurse etc. And that itself proves buffing player before mmr is terrible. I guarantee you killers will need buffs after mmr and it will be a common streamer complaint. People dont want insane fast games, people want to chase and do multiple things in a trial
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There should be quality of life additions that benefit solos primarily but equally also benefit SWF imo.
Simple things such as
- The ability to see the perks your teammates have in the pre game lobby and also while in game by opening the game menu similar to how you view offerings.
- Team oriented perks having proper activation icons similar to We'll Make It
- (Solidarity, Better Together, Babysitter, Camaraderie, Second Wind or any other perks I'm forgetting that require a teammate to proc)
- See what offerings your teammates are using at the start of the trial (This one is debatable)
For the most part just quality of life changes like that - That's how I would personally buff solos who are incapable of communicating to other survivors whether it be towards other solos on console or towards an SWF. It makes things so much easier when they have this knowledge prior and it doesn't directly buff survivor perks or abilities.
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You do realise that MMR goes down, yeah?
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High mmr meaning high skill, most people know what I mean. For some reason on DBD low rank seems to be counted as rank 20. I dunno why when many other games use different things like overwatch etc. But yes I know the difference between.
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Let me spell this out for you: killers struggling with their trials will go down until their MMR gives them comfortable trials.
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Man Scott Jund seems to be everywhere. He is a good killer and a nice streamer, but i just cannot deal with his way of arguing and his way of acting like illogical arguments are common sense. His new Video on Tru3 is just nonsense... For example he says, that 10% extra gen would mean that the game takes 40 seconds longer, which is not accurate. It means the game takes 40 seconds longer AT THE VERY LEAST. Im not sure if i think a blatant gen time increased would be the optimal way to go, but Scott should be smarter than arguing like this.
However i do believe that buffing solo so killers can be buffed as well is the only realistic way to handle the balancing issue. This i do not disagree with.
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Like it has been said many times,comms is not the biggest strengh of SWF teams...Time effiency and know how to run the killer is.
Or like a guy in another thread said,Their biggest strengh is been able to pick their teammates.
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Quote: "Even Scott Jun who now supports swf and say solos need a buff hated the mmr because of how stupid hard it was... they was mostly solos but now you want them buffed??? What?"
Translation: "I want easy 4ks on red ranks even if I mess up a million times per match"
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Lol nice try, if you actually look at my points it's from my survivor perspective. And my main point was any talk of buffing solos is stupid until mmr has been active a long time.
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Trues nurse game was a bad game, he played bad. I'm not trying to take sides just trying to be reasonable and make the game balanced and fun for all players not just the majority of the player base. But like I said my points and views probably wont be taken seriously as it's not in a video on youtube, but that's the way to world works, people are easily influenced and tend to lack the idea of when they messed up or what's fair but that's human. Even I in the moment make mistakes but I always evaluate and double back my initial thoughts
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Solo Survivors already have good and reliable Information perks on top of the game being by default designed to help Survivors since they have no abilities themselves, SWF just makes everything easier BUT IT DOESNT MEAN SOLOQ IS UNPLAYABLE. Maps are designed to be Survivors safety, it's what we call looping, it's how Survivors defend themselves from Killers as much as possible and buy time for the remaining Survivors to do the objective. Innevitably a killer will down a Survivor, they can't evade forever, it's why Bloodlust exists.
There's perks like Kindred, Bond, Detectives Hunch, Windows of Opportunity and manny others that give less experienced players and new comers all the tools to locate things until they get to know and understand the layout of things. There's perks for Team Work like Borrowed Time, like Prove Thyself, For the People etc and there's perks for Independant Survival, like Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Unbreakable, DS, etc. Good players use all of them while bad players ignore most of them just for personal safety so they don't know where gens or loops are, they don't know where totems are, they don't know how to loop and get themselves killed very early and causes the whole team to crumble.
This is the problem in SoloQ for the GOOD SOLOQ Survivors, the majority of Survivors are CASUAL players and they don't know or care about teamwork. It's the excessive amount of Potatoes that is screwing the actual good players, because the whole Survivor team crumbles, the team is only as good as their weakest link, it doesn't matter if the worlds best survivor player is on a team with 3 potatoes, that's not a strong team, even if they were SWF on comms, those 3 potatoes will get the good survivor in trouble...
And the good SoloQ Survivors can't fault matchmaking either, matchmaking has to spread the survivors skill level according to the killer, so if there isn't a good killer then there can't be better survivors either otherwise the killer is stompped by 4 good players who won't give killer a chance. Good SoloQ Survivors aren't always facing Otz or Jaee or Scott or Dowsey or Bronx or Tofu or CMWinters or Tru3 because not only there's not manny killers compared to survivors but also not every killer is on that level, the matchmaking has to balance the game and split the survivors skill level. So the problem isn't even that they faced good killers the problem is they had awful team mates, the problem is that there's too manny unskilled Survivors not that Survivor is hard because Survivor is not hard, the game is favourable to Survivors by default like it has to be ( it could be better Balanced in some cases yes but it will always have to be favourable to survivors, they only have loops aka the Map to work with and the rest is individual player skill), you're just playing with literal potatoes. The problem is BHVR makes the game accessible to these bad players.
If BHVR made the game more challenging where Survivors do need to learn to play the game then the population would lower yes but the chances of you finding decent survivors would be better because you've eliminated the potatoes. This is a practical application of GIT GUD. Weed out the lower spectrum of players.
BHVR listens to this peoples cries and keeps making the game cater more and more to CASUALS, lowering the skill level and thought process requirement to play the game. That's why Jill will come with the Ultimate Totem Counter Perk, it's why she'll come with Free 50% Heal Progress, it's why Leon will come with infinite Flashbang Grenades, it why Leon will come with another Gen Locating Perk. THe potatoes don't care about the game to know what they need to know and BHVR keeps giving them things for free.
On a final note, SoloQ is about to get much worse because of the RE chapter, more potatoes are coming and BHVR already gave Survivors more Perks to help those Potatoes on top of a stupid Map that doesn't work for DbD, it will probably never be adjusted since it's a licensed Map...This chapter is gonna be awful but majority of people still don't realize it.
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Okay... I know how ranking works, did you read the post? I said buffing solos is stupid till mmr is a thing. You cant buff survivors that lack game knowledge, lack skill or even lack understanding of perks, efficiency etc. To beat decent killers. I said we have to WAIT till mmr has been active awhile. Or all you'll do is mess it up and require more changes after mmr
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I've always thought the logic for Killer mains wanting soloQ buffed was so that killers could get massive buffs as well
Like, if the survivor side was consistant in terms of information then it's easier to make killer stronger, right?
Not sure I completely agree but I think that's why you see people like Scott advocating for SoloQ buffs, because that would also mean more buffs for killer in theory.
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Exactly. You cannot buff or change things for new/less experienced players hence why we must wait for mmr. I'm not against changes but wait till mmr exists, no matter how much you buff some of these players they will not improve the way they play. My example of the hiding player is proof. I also had better together so she could see me on the gen, she still hid. You could give her every buff you want and she still wouldn't be at the same level as X players.
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Yeah killers would need alot of buffs, people dont just wanna have to play the few killers viable at high skill. All I can say is when the mmr actually gave me teammates near my skill the killer couldnt do much. I want all sides to have fun, I have never versed a killer I felt was winning because I as a solo couldn't play well. In fact it's the bad ranking that I hate most about this game, solo isn't the issue, ranking is.
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You might to actually tag him if you want to have a discussion with him.
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The idea of it is that you bridge the gap between solos and swf so comms isnt a free perk. THEN buff the killers since now there isn't a huge gap between swf and solos. For instance even a totem counter (something simple for swf to do over comms) solos need small game for. Or for unhooking a survivor ive had all 3 survivors hop off gens to come unhook me at the same time. To avoid that i need to run kindred. Its so dumb. If every match had good communication we could easily balance the killers accordingly. But since i can destroy most solo teams as pyramid for instance the devs think "this is fine" but when all survivors are coordinated pyramid crumbles hard.
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I literally quoted you. Your argument was buffing solos is wrong because even scott had to sweat when mmr was on.
Guess what: That's what red ranks is supposed to be and even then he won most of the matches I watched (and in the meantime DS got nerfed which has a huge impact) so what is your point?
Did he lose more than he won? Even though he probably didn't keep track of it himself and probably won't reply anyways:
@ScottJund : When MMR was on did you keep track of your matches as in how often you had more than 2 escapes?
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If he actually comes this thread will become very interesting
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How can mmr ever hope to work when the devs prioritize time over everything else?
We all saw what happened to Dowsey.
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You say that like everyone watched Dowsey. I have no idea what you are referring to but it sounds like it's something you're not allowed to say here?
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Yup, i mostly agree with you. I disagree regarding MMR tho. We already experimented MMR more than once and both times results were not good. We've had Dowsey on Stream wait for a match for 1hour and 20 minutes and he only got a match because people actually made an SWF and stream sniped so they could have the matchmaking sync and he lost that match btw although yes it was very late and he was already tired but he ended up losing anyway. He had such high MMR on The Twins Killer that the game had no Survivors to give him a match.
Putting this into overall perspective, in low MMR there won't be an issue, you're dealing with new comers and casuals so those stay all together and isolated in their own buble until they get progressively better, low MMR survivors vs low MMR killer, all is fine. They eventually improve or not doesn't matter they no longer affect the rest of players who are above them. Mid tier MMR becomes interesting because that's where the fun begins, some solid killers and some solid survivors. And then there's high MMR where innevitably Survivors have the upper-hand, 4 good survivors is very hard to handle even if they are all SoloQ, they already have very good understanding of the game, maps, killers and counters so they are not benefiting so much from being in a SWF, if any of them is being chased the others clearly understand what's going on. Killers won't handle High MMR and the best Survivors and SWF's won't get manny matches or be at the risk of losing their few matches. As good as some of the best killer players are the pressure is too much, the RNG in DbD is too much, if they get 1 or 2 kills that would have to be considered a win since a 3 or 4k scenario will be so difficult. You're turning the top of DbD into Competitive but without any fair rules, so all the broken abusable stuff will be used.
This is what will happen the at high MMR, this is what will happen in the gap between the top of the Mid MMR and the bottom of the High MMR, that gap that seperates both ranges will be very very competitive, the same will happen between the bottom of Mid MMR and the Top of low MMR, very competitive matches. In theory it's all fine and it helps and forces players to improve if they want to but they have to reBalance the whole game.
It just seems too much work to first make the MMR work accordingly wich we still don't know how that is going, then wait a few months for things to settle down and have a good representation of where the players are standing and then reBalance the whole game. All this while adding new content to the game. I don't think BHVR can achieve this.
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To be honest, I read every part of that post except the last sentence and now I have a slightly different issue: What? You're basically saying let everything settle then throw it into chaos again, that makes even less sense. That makes even less sense, there's soamy very, very good solo players that are held back by a lack of co-ordination.
As someone who goes against nothing but the sweatiest and really ######### hates playing killer now because there's absolutely nothing fun at all about 5-minute trials with, if you make even a small mistake, 4-minute gens, that's not a good idea and solo que should be buffed whenever the Devs are ready, hang the consequences. (The consequences in this context being evening AU survivor ques for everyone which would force the Devs to also give killer a shiteload of QoL buffs).
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Thankyou, didnt know he was actually on here much appreciated!
And no that's not what I'm saying, but using your point he had to sweat to beat players during mmr... okay that's fine but why are we talking about buffing them? If it was already hard and "more balanced" why are we then buffing
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Oh yeah mmr is an issue, I dont really want it but its coming regardless so buffing before such a thing in play is just gonna make it worse. No one wants huge wait times, or only see certain killers etc. And sure alot of players it will be fine but high skilled players, or high skilled streamers will be impacted most. Do their viewers want to see them verse the same 2 killers most matches? Sure seems bland.
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That's why I asked scottjund if he kept track of his MMR games because I can't remember him losing a high number of matches. I think it MMR merely made it feel more exhausting to get the kills but even then he probably still 4k'd most of his matches which -with active MMR- is a clear sign that solos need buffs even if we only talk small changes like basekit Kindred which SWF has for free anyways.
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You do realize that solos are the reason why SWF is strong, right? If they bring solos on SWF level, they will have more room to nerf/adjust things to make it more fair for both sides. In the current situation Solo experience is just miserable compared to SWF and any nerf would still hurt solos more than SWF.
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This has to be bait, real bait! 🤣
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They arent held back. If they want more info they can use info perks, why should they run meta and still get all the info? Because swf has it? Guess we shall just rework half of the base game. And once again you cant balance until mmr is a thing. Atm you can 12hooks at 5 gens, that should never happen but that's because rank means nothing. I feel like you're missing the point im making, you just seem to want solos buffed even though they was playing so well and making killer hard in mmr. But we shall buff them anyway...
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Once again solo sucks because the ranking sucks, swf can pick the team meaning they're less likely to have a team of gen allergic survivors lol. Seriously run bond, kindred etc. And watch how little some survivors actually do to progress the game
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I mean, he doesn't really come on here much, but it's worth a shot.
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Yeah, MM also plays the factor here, but it's also because solos lack communication and coordination, and if you combine all these things, it's a big mess.
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There are more benefits to SWF than just picking your teammates. Hell if your friend isn't that good it might not be a huge benefit.
MMR helps pick better teammates, but does not cover coms. If you take the same group of survivors, the good, the bad, the mixed group we have now and use coms they have a huge benefit. Killers are not balanced around that fact and yet that is what they face at a pretty high percentage. 2 people on coms already has benefits, it is why you rather have your partner than a random.
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As a solo, I just want to see my teammates' perks and offerings before the match. That is all.
For SWF, put a little indicator above their names to let the Killer (and the solos in the game) know they're a team, so they can play accordingly.
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Found out you was on forums, if you ever do wish to have a discussion I'd be open to it, or maybe you agree with my point. You may not see this but I'll post my point briefly to try make it clear and more simple
No balance changes to solos/swf should be made until mmr has been put into place and has been active for a long period of time (for it to sort players accordingly)
Reason being is ranking is a mess, skill gap between these players is so big you can have game where you dominate the killer or get 12 hooks at 5 gens. None of which should ever be a thing is ranking worked correctly.
Why would we buff players who are struggling because they're versing people they shouldn't be.
While I am not against changes, I feel making such haste decisions will not be good for the game and will cause more harm than good.
At the end of the day the game should be fun for everyone killers or survivor, but buffing solos to swf is alot of changes, numerous perks would be built in from bond, kindred etc. Which means so many perks will need to be changed and the meta will be even more stale. If solos wish to have more info, they should use info perks such as I do. Or learn to play without them and have more understanding. I think alot of changes need to happen, for both sides however buffing solos is not something I will ever want unless mmr has been active along while and issues are still a thing. But I dont feel that will be the case, while I dont consider myself the best survivor I know 4 players at my experience would be insanely hard to deal with even against the stronger killers. Not trying to be cocky but when you understand efficiency, tile knowledge, counter knowledge and even the maths/timing behind things you are quite in control. Against such things a killer isn't allowed to make mistakes, and that's not humanly possible...
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That's literally the point, though? Solos, if they want information, have to sacrifice perk slots and can't stack things like Borrowed Time, Dead Hard, Unbreakable, etc. Even then, a solo could only run four info perks max. SWFs get every info perk for free, including some that don't exist. They get max efficiency and minimal mistakes - no running killers into occupied gens, no survivors left to progress hook stages and no three people going for the save at once, no running towards a pallet that someone else dropped, everyone knows what gens are partially completed, everyone knows when the killer is and isn't busy, everyone knows where a hex is when one player spots it, everyone knows who the killer is and what perks they're running as long as one player makes the call, et cetera.
If the gap between solos and SWFs was narrowed, killer could be buffed to be put on par with SWFs. As long as there are three sides, and two of the sides are the same but one is intrinsically better than the other, the game will never be balanced. I don't understand your argument at all. You're basically saying because some solos played really well against a streamer that it'd be horrible to buff solos. Which... yes? Some survivors are good? The problem isn't that solos literally can't win games?
If you take the same four players, they will perform better when they have comms than when they don't. Those players may be gods and they may be potatoes; the killer might struggle with them without comms or sweep them when they have them. That doesn't matter; the only part that matters is that comms elevates them.
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Let me put it this way: I currently suffer from the terrible syndrome that is co-ordinated survivors. MMR made my trials easier when it was active. I am dealing with exactly what you are terrified of and I'm still saying that solo survivors need buffed. Why? Because a full team of solo's is the easiest win I could possibly have. Their skill means nothing. They may as well not exist. They have both arms and a leg tied behind them, they are forced to choose between info perks and mindles second chances, they're constantly matched with weak links to be heavily exploited and no matter what they always make crucial mistakes due to lack of information even if they're running 4 info perks.
When I play solo I usually get matched with a 2-3 person SWF. I know from experience I don't have to deal with the BS that NA and EU solo's do. And you know what? I think everyone should have to deal with co-ordinated survivors with strong, mindless builds trial after trial after trial. Because then shite would actually change instead of MMR bandaiding it like the Devs are praying it will. So yes, the Devs should buff solo survivors long before they finally release what they promised, because then everyone will know both the pain of good survivors and that, and this is truly the worst part, that killers can still ######### win. It's miserable. I hate it. And the only way it will ever change is if the Devs themselves and the community at large are forced to deal with co-ordinated survivors. Then people would shut up about solo's being weak and actually give some massively overdue QoL buffs to killer just to make trials that much less stressful.
Leaving a massively long overdue solo buff til long after MMR has settled won't do a thing except throw the system into chaos as it is forced to adjust once more. If you want real change, buff solo's while we have the current system and watch everyone realise in horror just how badly good solo's have had their hands tied.
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I don't watch him and even i knew because it was spammed all over this forum and others.
He waited for a game for 2 or 3 hours because his mmr was so high on twins after his 800 win streak. He finally got a tournament squad and lost.
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Dude, those bad survivors you have on your team will not get better because of the buffs. Giving a person who hides most matches, cant lead on a chase and dont do gens lots of info perks for free still isn't going to help them. I understand solo is awful, I have to carry most of my games but that's not because solo is bad, I can hold my own, play efficiently and like I said carry (to an extent) without the buffs you're wanting. Ranking is the issue. Why are players that cant loop or even look behind them rank 1? You cant buff them, they're just bad... all buffing will do is make those stronger solo players stronger. And I honestly dont want every game being DS,BT,DH,UB/IW. I mean its common in my matches already I'd rather that not be 100% meta because all info perks were made base to imitate coms. Variety is what makes the game fun. Whether that's a different killer, map or perks.
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I didn't feel especially sorry for him. Playing twins in the most miserable way against one solo group after another and then streaming sitting in a queue for hours instead of just like...playing a different killer. Or if he's that committed to the twins I'm sure some of his viewers would've agreed to play slug simulator in kyf.
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Scott Jund has also said that he doesn't like the idea of MMR, so I'm not sure why you're really using that in your argument other than you think MMR is inevitable. (I'm not sure it is, given how it's not active right now, and won't be anytime soon) But even with MMR, SWF still have an advantage that solo players don't have. It's an advantage that should be mitigated in order to properly balance the game. I tend to agree with him on MMR, because I think DBD has context to it that a player can judge, but that an algorithm cannot.
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