Otz’s made great points on his video about Spirit
Otz made some great points in this video about how problematic Spirit’s add ons. One of the skills that comes to being a survivor is identifying the add ons that killers have. If you’re going against an Oni with Scalped Topknot, Hillbilly with Doom Engravings, Blight with Blighted Rat, etc., then you’ll be able to point out those add ons and adjust to play against them despite them being very powerful add ons. You won’t be able to do this against Spirit because of the lack of feedback she gives.
This is where people miss the point. It’s not about Spirit and her add ons being powerful, it’s about survivors not being able to understand what’s going on, leaving them with no other options but to blindly guess what’s happening. You can try debating that Spirit has reliable counterplay all you want, but it still doesn’t change the fact that you can’t see what she’s doing.
I’m not gonna go into detail about what I think could be a solution to fix this issue, but all I know is that it needs to be fixed. If you are on the “Spirit is fine” side, then you have to at least admit that there is no information for survivors to work with on which add ons she has, how she plays, where she’s gonna reappear, and so on and so forth.
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Oh true. My mistake I’m such an idiot.
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There's a million different things involving rng or not being able to tell what the other side has as far as items/perks/addons until it's too late. Why should spirit's addons be different?
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Mind giving some examples?
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I feel like tool killer are easy to note the addon (like Trapper able to pick trap while has trap in his hand = bag, trap self setup = blood coil...)
Spirit add is all about num increasing her speed (active speed, movement speed, recharge speed).
I think Spirit basekit should have alot of weaknesses, addon is to remove them.
Look at Trapper as example, Bag for carrying more than 1 trap, dye to give you ability to lay trap outside grass, coil to prevent disable his power...
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There's no way to tell if someone has DS, borrowed time, sloppy butcher, blood warden, lopro chains, etc until it's too late. Does a pyramid head hitting you through walls have I'm all ears or is he just got good hearing or taking guesses? Did that key a survivor pull have addons because they're running ace's perks? Did they pull a green key from a chest or a purple/pink?
There's a lot that just turns into educated guessing at best and usually only after the fact. Plenty of killers still end up respecting DS because you MIGHT have it.
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Yeah, her addons certainly don't help at learning how to play against her. Way too many variables that directly effect how much time/distance you have to be safe from her phase.
Most other killer addons that do buff their power, usually don't do so in such a way where power levels are drastically different between addon combinations. A few killers do have a single problematic addon that should be addressed, but that's a different issue.
Between her addons and the lack of real downsides to bad phases, she's certainly hard to reliably counter. I've just never been a fan at saying she has absolutely no counterplay, because I feel that fails to address her actual issues.
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The only downsides Spirit has is the cool down that isn’t that long if they’re using short bursts and not being able to see survivors, which isn’t really that crazy. So yeah, that is also another big issue.
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Yeah, her add-ons are a little bit insane to be honest.
But then again, they always were. Remember the old combo of Yakuyoke Amulet + Prayer Beads? Probably one of the most unfair things in DBD.
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I’m sorry but that isn’t a good counter argument. Literally everything in the whole match of DBD comes with the inability to know what everyone has at the start of the match. That’s not an issue because overtime you’ll start to have an idea on what everyone has.
If they’re playing in a certain way, you can predict if they have BT, DS, Blood Warden, etc. You can see directly if they have Sloppy Butcher applied to you.
When it comes to Spirit, there’s no information to be given at any point in the match. There’s no conditioning against her add ons because you can’t tell where she is or how she’s playing.. That’s the issue people have with her, how do you people not get it?
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I wasn’t around during those times but I can see why it would be miserable to go against.
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I do think she has counterplay as well, but the counterplay has nothing to do with the skill of the survivors. They can try doing all these fancy predictions all they want, but at the end of the day, it’s all up to the Spirit.
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It was. Yakuyoke Amulet basically had no downsides and Prayer Beads completely removed the phasing sound.
That was...painful.
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Didn’t old Yakuyoke Amulet increase movement speed, duration, and recovery more than her green add ons?
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I don't have precise numbers, but:
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Honestly, an add on like that is even more powerful than old Prayer Beads. It literally improves almost everything about her with no drawbacks. Right now, it’s in a decent spot other than the combination of it and MDR.
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It was pretty common seeing both Prayer Beads and Old Amulet ran together. Compared to that, current spirit is fairly tame. I do remember old amulet provided less duration than current amulet.
Right now I would say MDR and Amulet is one of her strongest, if not strongest combinations, and it's fairly close to taking away every choice survivors could possibly make against a phasing spirit, because the amount of distance you can cover with that is insane.
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It was one of her best add-ons, that is for sure. If it looks that powerful on paper, imagine seeing it in action.
The last time I saw this add-on before the change was on Father's Campbell Chapel, and it is safe to say that I never had a chance to escape that trial.
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I believe that combo makes her go faster than Billy with his chainsaw. As strong as Spirit’s base kit it, that combo just makes her overwhelmingly impossible to counter or escape against.
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Maybe having that add on on Haddonfield makes the match balanced. That’s how stupid it is.
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Well, I don't mind that tbh. Fight fire with fire.
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Yeah.
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It's all just guesses until something happens. You're guessing whether or not spirit's addons will let her reach you from x distance based on how often she has been using her power. It's no different than guessing whether or not someone has bt or ds. Or guessing if huntress brought extra hatchets. Or guessing if spirit fury was brought. All of these things can be game changers and there's no way to know other than making guesses until they happen.
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Again, you are missing the issue with Spirit. All of those things you’re mentioning are unpredictable before they happen, yes, but there is a confirmation on them having it and there are ways to play around them even if you haven’t seen it yet. For example, not hitting the guy that got unhooked to avoid BT, not picking up someone that was recently unhooked to avoid DS. With Spirit, there’s no way of ever knowing what she has in terms of add ons or how she plays because you can’t see what the ######### she’s doing.
Let me rephrase it so you can actually get it: the unpredictability of what everyone has is fine as long as there are ways to play around them.
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"unpredictability of what everyone has is fine as long as there are ways to play around them."
How do you play around syptic agent? Random keys being purple/pink or green? How do you play around any 50/50 guessing game?
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All of these things are situational and involve some sort of setup to use, spirit is literally just never knowing what shes doing, it's not even close to the same.
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Well syptic agent is an issue, I would not argue with that, and same with keys. I’m not bias towards one side you know, I play both sides equally so don’t act like me understanding Spirit not having reliable counterplay means I don’t understand issues survivors have too.
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I mean its not really surprising that after Freddy that Spirit would be next target. i wonder how much survivors will need to complain about spirit until the next "spirit rework", gutting happens.
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Most add-ons are impossible to tell, and many of those that are spottable are impossible to play around. For example, STK, Barbs Glasses, Black Heart, Blighted Rat...
It's like Nurse, there's a purely psychological effect that happens when you see something coming that makes it somehow better even though the reality of the situation is that you're completely ######### either way.
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How do you know someone has spirit fury when they break safe pallets like shack? How do you know someone has DS if you down them off hook? How do you know someone found a key offscreen? How do you know someone brought syptic instead of just a normal medkit?
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Again, you're comparing things that take setup to something that is always there, that is spirits entire power, every match you go against spirit it will be the same, not every match will have spirit fury / keys etc because they involve setup and certain situations, spirit is just ALWAYS the same dude.
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Maybe I should constantly play Spirit with meta perks and powerful add ons so I can increase her escape rate. Then when the devs see that, they’ll finally do something with her.
Exactly. That’s the exact reason why the strength of Spirit isn’t the issue. It’s her not giving any tells on what she’s doing that makes it an issue and completely gets rid of all skill the survivors have.
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I agree. I think spirit could use some more counter play but this will obviously be a nerf and that's fine. I just think that they shouldn't nerf one side at a time like what they did with moris.
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We're talking about her addons. Her addons are just as random and full of guessing as a million other things. If the devs were to remove ALL the guessing then they should remove all guessing from everything else which you seem to see as fine.
If you don't have some sort of guessing or unreactablity then a game becomes solved and very boring.
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This is also why people were celebrating Spirit's breathing bug, by the way, even though she moves so damn quick and in such short bursts that you physically couldn't react fast enough. I kept seeing Spirit players complain about how she was dead and Spirit Haters celebrating her death and meanwhile I was busy messing with people's heads until I got bored and murdered them... Or I lost track of time and the gens got done.
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I really want that breathing bug back. It didn’t kill her and actually allowed equal mind games for both sides. 99% of the bugs that exist in DBD are ones that need to be fixed but this one was part of the 1%.
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because no addons change a powers speed even close to the amount spirit does, most speed changes are a few milliseconds, and can vary wildly, where as any other killer gets a few milliseconds which are helpful but not drastically impactful.
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That and Surveillance.
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Spirit with double speed addons including the iridescent isn't faster than double speed billy, double speed blight, or nurse.
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Survivors just want everything served up in a plate and brought to them at this point lol. Look at demo hes considered weak killer because of all the information he gives. You know when he teleports, when he lands a hit, when he's gonna shred even when he damages a teleporter. Too much information for one side. Spirit is fine tbh. The only thing I'd change is stand still mindgame. And if you play killer you'd know right away what add ons a killer is using. Spirit for example if she phasing often that means she got recharge add ons or if she got speed add ons you'll know right away if she catches to you quicker than usual. But thats any killer you'll know what add ons their playing playing if you yourself play killer. You shouldn't be able to know what add ons or perks either side is using thats the point.
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Demo isn’t a weak killer at all…
You don’t know if she has recovery add ons because you never can tell when she starts phasing if her power is back so that is irrelevant.
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If you see tier lists hes usually b or c tier. But you cant deny that he gives wayyy to much information to survivors. If he didn't he'd be way stronger. And thats the point some people are trying to make about killers. You shouldn't be able to know every little thing a killer is doing.
Of course you can tell if she has recovery add ons. If you notice that she's phasing often in chases then you already know what add ons she's using. A good spirit will always phase when they have the chance. So if they're using recharge add ons then you'll definitely be able to tell. But its up to you to adapt to the killer.
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Huntress gives plenty of information to survivors, you can clearly see her lifting up a hatchet, there's a dinging noise when her hatchet is fully charged, you can hear her put her hatchet back in her belt, and she literally has a freaking lullaby you can hear from meters away, yet she's still a very strong killer. All of these cues give survivors reasonable counterplay and it doesn't butcher Huntress in any way, so she's the definition of a strong but fair killer.
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I agreed with Otz and made a comment explaining that she's completely random. A guy commented on my post saying he's read every post asking why they think she's strong. I told him why, he says that's not a reason. Otz made amazing points, but people are stubborn haha
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I swear that people that say Spirit's gameplay is fine and balanced just don't play survivor at red ranks.
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She's ok not as strong as gunslinger though. Thats why people avoid playing huntress. Usually shes easily looped. She has a lullaby of 40m I already know she's close and ready to shift w. Her hatchets are easily dodged, you can bait a hatchet at the window or pallet, I know when to dodge when I hear the cue. She can be a weak killer if you know how to loop. But she does give alot of information as well. And yeah if you play her alot or main her you can destroy survivors thing is though that requires alot of time. But thats any killer. imo I don't see alot of huntress in red ranks.
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Huntress is easily looped? Are you kidding me right now? Her hatchets are great at stopping loops it’s just that she actually offers a chance for survivors to apply their skill to unlike Spirit.
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Shes 110% and slows down when she raises her hatchets yes she's easily looped. Unless you're going for the obvious pallet drop or vault. Thats why she's never played in tourneys. Thing is though spirit has counterplay you just refuse to accept. Only thing spirit needs is a cue when she phases.
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It's not that Spirit has no counterplay, it's just that the counterplay she does have completely negates the skill of the survivor. Everything that survivors learned over their time playing the game are completely irrelevant when playing against Spirit because you're just blindly guessing where she is. It's really not that hard to comprehend.
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I personally don't think she's too op, but people just refusing to agree that there's some randomness going against her can be stressful
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Another spirit post? Yay
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