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Be glad we have the hassle with the performance right now, cause tofu posted a new vid...
and oh boy is it the ever same 'the new killers are boring and unfun because they totally have no counterplay if you try to run your loop-juke-genrush MO' spiel
Comments
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I mean...Deathslinger, Nemesis, Trickster, and Twins are pretty unfun to go against, in my opinion.
Though obviously not for the reasons Tofu mentioned.
EDIT: And obviously Ghostface. is the most unfun of them all.
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"Doctor's power just shuts down every window and pallet. It's guaranteed damage."
I guess his latency must be way better than mine, because I hit survivors, they scream, and then they drop pallets in my face EVERY SINGLE TIME. I think I shut down a loop maybe twice a game (and then they just take another loop and throw the pallet anyway).
His point about "they stopped making killers that are good at the 1v4 part of the game" is valid, but his complaint about the 1v1 element is just his skill at the game robbing him of reliable difficulty.
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nemesis and trickster I agree.
Granted:
With Nemesis I have to agree with pixelbrush's assessment that he's a killer for new players to show them the ropes, in a way.
Trickster is a mess. He's all the weaknesses of Deathslinger, Huntress, Clown and Plague combined without their strengths, and he's be better of with a complete overhaul giving him a different power on the whole.
But Deathslinger and Twins?
To me they stay the prime example of people's unwillingness to change their loopy-jukey-genrush MO. Slinger's main counter is in his map and backstory: He's a bounty hunter, the counter is stealth. Will the matches take longer? sure, but it's a killer where you can show off how well you know what killers can see, where to hide etc.
The issue with him is more that we don't have dynamic map creation, nor are the devs brave enough to bar killers like him from using perks that make him unfair (like M&A)
And twins? similar issue: people are not used to killers they can't face with one MO, and Twins also do get some unfair advantages on some maps (while on others survivors get unfair advantages against them).
So, the fault isn't on these killers, it's on the community and on the devs unwillingness to really shake things up (maybe out of fear of the community)
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We don't really have a killer whose power is to be good in the 1v4 aspect. The closest we have is Legion who can run around and attempt to spread deep wounds on an entire team of survivors at once, but it's easy enough to split up against him that it really fails to live up to much.
But also I just really hate the term "guaranteed damage". Being good at a killer should net you being able to use their power for hits and for killer powers that can quickly end chase then they should lead to to quick downs. Saying a killers power is "guaranteed damage" to me just sounds like dismissing any kind of skill component and I hate that mentality that seems very prevalent in the community lately.
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Well, Hag can set up to have a strong 1v4 game by trapping and teleporting freely, putting stress on the enemy team. beyond just the chase aspect.
Doctor is SUPPOSED to be 1v4, since his madness stays on and makes checks harder. It's just that the survivor skill checks are super easy to start and mandess doesn't make them all THAT much harder. If Madness levels sped up the skill check unpredictably, the madness effect would be a great 1v4 mechanic.
Freddy HAD a bit of 1v4 with the sleep addons and teleport pressure. But they nerfed his 1v1 with slow down and fewer traps, while also nerfing his 1v4 with the sleep-speed addon removal, so his 1v4 game is pretty bad now.
Plague is supposed to have 1v4 with the disease vectoring off of survivors and objects to infect survivors even when she's not around. But object infection disappears in seconds, there's way too many fountains, using them takes almost no time, and they both remove the disease AND heal you, so in truth, she's all 1v1 with no real 1v4.
Pyramid Head has the same problem: his torment trails are supposed to be 1v4 slow-down/tracking/debuffs, but they take too long to make, cover too little space, and fade away so quickly you rarely get any use out of them.
It'd be nice to see a new killer whose power is all about the 1v4. Maybe they start putting crows circling over you if you stay out of the killer's terror radius long enough. Or inflict status effects if you're away from other survivors for too long. Or prevent survivors from using vault points if they're not in-chases. I dunno. SOMETHING other than yet another skill-shot killer power.
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Nobody is saying killers like Slinger and Twins are OP. They. Aren't. Fun. I'm not sure why so many struggle to wrap their head around the concept that something can be technically balanced but unfun overall.
Half the killers they've released since the Freddy rework are "press M2 to zone for free or actually do the thing instead". It's braindead gameplay. It's no accident that most of the killers deemed "most fun" are the ones that actually require a good amount of mechanical skill and have some back and forth in the chase.
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They have counters, but that doesn't them fun imho. They are unfun because their powers are unfun, not OP.
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Then you get people saying a killer's power is weak because the counter to the killer is to hold w and never let them use their power in the first place.
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They have change their MO though. It is changing to shift w and pre drop pallets. As a killer, I find this style more boring to play against than someone you tries to loop that I have a chance to mind game. And it is boring on survivor too.
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Did you even watch the video and take in all the information?
He constantly states all these killers are completely beatable but their 1v1 is either throw down pallet immediately and hope they miss or get hit.
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Spirit?
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Deathslinger is so unbelievably unenjoyable to play against I’d honestly rather play stridor spirit
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I would take 1000 Spirits at the same time before going against Ghostface.
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Is it because of the constant leaning back and forth behind walls so you can't reveal him or because the reveal mechanic is kinda iffy?
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Oddly I enjoy playing against a lot of them.
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Both. And much more.
There is just somethin about him that gets on my nerves, ever since his PTB.
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So, I do disagree with a lot of what he said on which killers are unenjoyable, but it could just be me.
For example he said they have unenjoyable 1v1s. But, I actually enjoy playing against Doctor and Nemesis. Twins fun to kick the bebe. And I prefer to be slugged over hooked. And twins suck at hooking. Although yes Deathslinger can be oppressive in 1v1, but he kind of needs it because he has no good mobility or snowball
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He's wrong about Doctor, a good doctor is oppressive but certainly not unbeatable and there is counterplay. You can do something against him, even if it's just pre-dropping pallets.
Nemesis I think it's too early to say, his power can be oppressive at pallets/windows but...So is Huntress? I didn't see him complain about her? They legit have the same power with respect to pallets and windows. They're usually death sentences if the killer has a brain
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I like making deathslingers miss their shots and kicking the twins baby in the face. I'm not sure why so many struggle to wrap their head around the concept that some things can be fun for some people but not for others..
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I agree that lately we're getting a lot of 1v1 killers, but people have been complaining about looping for ages. The general consensus has always been that survivors should be scared of the killers and not be able to loop them for ages. Saying "fix maps" is easy, but overall it makes more sense to make killers stronger in chases.
Also there were attempts at killers who were weak in weak in the 1v1 but strong in the 1v4: the original Freddy and Doctor, and they both had to be reworked because killers couldn't stand being weak in chases and survivors couldn't stand being pressured while outside of chases. (I'm over-simplifying of course)
In the end I can't say if the evolution of the game is good or bad, but I don't think it's out of the blue: it's happened/ing because that's what people want.
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I think DBD needs a non ranked mode where players don't give a crap about evaluating every part of the game on whats good in any particular situation and instead just care about playing a scary horror game.
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Fun is completely subjective and what is fun for one side is not necessarily fun for the other.
I hate going against SWF, flashlights and all the stun perks but I just accept its part of the game and if I really found it that 'unfun' then I would just have to play something else.
I love playing against Spirit and the stealth killers but not the chainsaw ones, and as much as I kind of hate Hag\Trapper I also kind of enjoy the uncertainty these killers bring.
I think the most 'unfun' thing I can imagine is if all killers end up homogenised and feel the same to play against; running pallet to pallet. I like to have to adjust my playstyle depending on the killer I'm playing as or against.
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Fairly bad video from Tofu.
- Straight out the gate, gets Deathslinger's numbers wrong. Is this why he thinks he's S tier? It takes him .5-.65 seconds overall or more to shoot. The animation is .15 seconds, but you're not allowed to fire until either half a second after or at that mark. For perspective, Deathslinger, Demo, and Nemesis have roughly the same firing speed. If there's an issue with DS's design that's follows Tofu's perspective, it's that he doesn't have much in the way of cooldowns when he cancels ADS.
- Nemesis is not a truly oppressive killer. He's strong against filler loops, but a lot of the gameplay is identical to Huntress, except he's faster, but his attack can be interrupted by pallet stuns. Interestingly Huntress is not being listed amongst the problem children in the video. He's really overrating Nemesis's chase ability. It's by no means bad, but this whole "he's oppressive" angle is just survivors being bad against Nemesis. Nemesis is the closest killer to what Tofu's been talking about that we've had in a while, so it's baffling that Tofu's complaining about him.
- Tofu's unironically indicating that killers getting guaranteed hits if they don't make mistakes is a bad thing. So, here's the thing. If the game doesn't behave like this, then the opposite is true. If the survivors don't make mistakes they will never get hit, and they have total agency in the 4V1. The killers that aren't oppressive in chase and have 1v4 abilities do not have enough of them. If survivor's are sufficiently skilled, there is no mind game on the stronger tiles. The "good old days" Tofu's thinking about only existed because survivor's didn't have the established chasing metas that they do now. Oppressive killers are the direct consequence of survivors reeeeeing every time people bring up gens or other ways to slow or speed up the game for killers. If the timer running against killers is ridiculously short, then killers better be given the tools to make chases more consistently short.
- Shift+W is not used because of oppressive killers. That's just the meta period. If there's ever a mind game, why risk mind games when you can force a guaranteed 20+second chase? Survivors will use this on M1 killers as well. It'll just be used alongside unmindgammable structures. This is another reason why these strong chase killers are made.
- DBD was always headed this direction. The first 3 killers follow Tofu's desire. The very next killer added to the game is the most oppressive and powerful chaser, the Nurse. Most killers since then have a strong chase power. BHVR has just have varying degrees of success on giving the killers anti-loop.
- These killers aren't making DBD unfun. If people are finding the game unfun with this design, it's the game that's unfun. The core gameplay is very, very bad, and so perks are used as the solution for the game's problem's. Gens aren't engaging as objectives, so they'll never be made longer on their own. The fun as survivor is evading chases or beating the killer in one, but allowing this fun and keeping the gens short makes killer unbearable. There is no "fun" for both sides. Anything viable for killer is deemed "boring" by survivors. If a killer has control over the map with mobility and slowdown, they're hated. If a killer doesn't have control over the map, but at least has full agency in chase, the killer is hated. If a killer has neither, who in their right mind would play a role without agency? This game seems to be created in such a way that fun for a side is entirely antithetical to the other. As "unfun" the survivor role is, there's still a lot less willing to play the killer role, which should tell you something, so why is there such a strong kneejerk reaction to defend the survivor's fun if the killer role is not fun enough to warrant a playerbase big enough to consistently keep survivor's occupied?
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Yeah but look at the prime killer that's deemed "most fun"; Billy. He's been extinct for basically a year now. No one plays him anymore, new players don't care about him, and the only content creators who cared enough to bring the topic back again of his nerf were Otz and Scott.
I haven't really seen any survivor main asking the devs to change him, all i see really is complaining about the next trendy killer. If you gut Billy which was a very pick before the nerf, what do you think people are gonna go play?
Otz put it very well last year: "if you're a survivor main and hate Billy, you don't want him to be nerfed too much because you're gonna see a lot more Spirits"
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That's not changing the MO. That's adjusting it slightly. People try to face these killers by engaging them in chases, which... They point of them is that you don't do that.
Changing MO would mean you show off how well you know the map and the killer's field of vision. no slightly altering your loopey-jukey routine
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I don't think his statement that the killer he named have no counter-play are true.
Just poke at few of his claims.
Deathslinger is ranged killer, this means the entire point of being a ranged killer to hit ranged shots. It is true that deathslinger shot is unreactable at 10 meters.... but keep in mind that a lunge is 8 meters. so if he is in distance to shoot you with his "unreactable shot", he is most certainly in range... to also hit you with M1. The entire point of deathslinger is to save time efficiency by taking 12-18 meter shots and at 12-18 meters, his shot has leading... meaning it isn't hitscan so he has to shoot where he "thinks" your going to be in next 0.5-1 second. Also if your looking behind you, you can see deathslinger's hand motion when he lifts his gun and there is also a sound cue that plays when he is ADS and there is time to move left or right. In a sense he has 1/3 chance in guessing right, he either shoots at you, to left of you or right of you.
Generally, deathslinger tend to shoot at you, but if they notice your always dodging right, than eventually they'll shoot right and you'll walk into his spear. So its not deathslinger has no counter-play, its that reads you have to make against him are different from other killers.
Its sort of the same logic for other 3 killers he names. Twins is about predrop pallets because victor cannot break them and playing the pallets. some of which are very safe like long-wall-short wall. victor also cannot vault windows so long wall windows vaults tend to be very safe. Making distance away from charlotte is key to defeating them. This is because if victor cannot win the loop, twins has to recall and walk to the loop and break it or abandon that chase with victor meaning your effectively wasting the killer time. Victor also has charge time-up time and he has travel time for his pounce, so forcing chalotte to do longer range pounces is often more risky than doing pointblank ones that are very easy to hit. It also pays to understanding how far victor will pounce when he misses, so you can walk to him as he is flying+recovering so you can be ready to kick him.
Nemesis is like short-range huntress, he is all about hitting survivors during animation lock of vaulting a window or animation lock of putting a down pallet. so basically his game is all about bluffing the intention to drop a pallet and doing extra loops. his attack is quite hard to dodge out in the open because dragging-tentacle strike technique but realistically, every killer will make you lose health state when your out in the open with an M1. if nemesis continues believe that your bluffing and will not put down pallet, he will eventually walk under pallets where you can vacuum drop pallets on top of him.
all the killers are loopable, it's just that they have a lot more to their gameplay compare older killers like (Myers) where it's just loop 2-3 times.. drop pallet, break rinse and repeat.
I know he's been saying that he would wish developer rework loops to make them less safe, but they've reworked every map except for swamp maps, red forest maps and haddonfield and none major safe loops have been changed as survivors find these loops "fair". I doubt they want to do that because if all the loops were unsafe, every map would look like dead dog saloon or Midwich elementary school. I am not sure what he means by the time efficiency, some of their time efficiency are good like deathslinger missing shots rewards the survivor for predicting shots... where as other ones like nemesis infection is just drawback for no apparent reason. Twin's is design issue which sucks because twin's had good potential to be strong killer that ended up being nothing.
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I find Twins a bit fun to play but most new killers is boring to play and boring to play against and it's not good for the game. But as Tofu said changing maps could be the answer, but not gonna happen is it.
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Except that you dont make them miss their shots, it is them missing. There is not really input on the Survivor Side against Deathslinger, if they are good, the Survivors cannot really do anything.
@Topic:
Tofu is right with his video. If we look at the Killers released after Oni, they all have the same pattern - except for Blight, who is branded as one of the most fun Killers to play and play against, because he does not follow this concept.
But I would say, it is too late now, now we have the Shift + W - Meta and way too many Killers with oppressive Chase Potential.
I also agree with Tofu on Maps. Maps should be desigend with TONS of unsafe Pallets which are playable for both sides and just very few safe ones.
This would have multiple advantages:
- Killers would not be forced to kick Pallets right away, making Chases more interesting
- Good players can actually utilize those Pallets, making them more skillbased than just running structures
- Because there are many of those Pallets, bad players cannot really screw their team by wasting all the ressources. A Rank 15 Meghead blasting through multiple Jungle Gym Pallets will hurt her team more than the same Meghead playing unsafe Pallets
BUT for this, obviously, Bloodlust needs to go, however, we all know how much handholding Killers need and that nobody can expect them to play without their free Speedboost for playing badly.
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I wanted to give you an upvote up until I read your last paragraph. It strikes me as massively ignorant. In the 15s it takes BL to kick in, they didn´t even gain 10m on you, so unless they get a jumpscare on you bc you were listening to music they are bound to get it whether they play well or not. Let´s also not pretend that tons of tiles weren´t 100% save even when they reach BL3 (at which point the game is over anyways).
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Well if Tofu said it then it must be true!! (sarcasm)
Eyeroll
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look at the post above you.
Look at them agreeing with the following sentiments:
- There should be no killers that are strong in chases
- because no killer should be strong in chases there should be more unsafe pallets
- chases are the only fun part of the game
- all killers should be designed in a way that make chases the only thing to do so survs can go loopy-loop without thinking.
I don't see much of a difference between holding w and running up to a loop and hoping the killer will actually let one indulge in one's little superiority complex
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People don't understand that OP and oppressive are two different things.
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I wasn't replying to anyone - I was making a statement that Tofu's opinion on this game means no more or less to me than anyone else.
Just because he streams and plays a lot - doesn't validate his opinion over yours or mine, but some people on these forums take his and other larger streamers opinion as facts and gospel.
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Dont you see how you are contradicting yourself?
- "because no killer should be strong in chases there should be more unsafe pallets"
- "all killers should be designed in a way that make chases the only thing to do so survs can go loopy-loop without thinking."
Unsafe Pallets are not "loopy-loop without thinking". Players actually have to outplay the other side (except for Bloodlust of course, this allows to make it "without thinking" for the Killer).
And if the Killer cannot run unsafe Tiles, they are not good enough.
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no contradiction here:
Tofu wants killers like Deathslinger gone for good/not be able to cut chases short. Thus removing his ability to end chases especially at unsafe pallets.
So, the demand here is pallets that give the killer the feeling they might have a chance, but really just make the surv feel good about their 'looping skills'
exactly. that was what I was referring to. the post above you did exactly that. take some BigNameStreamer's (tofu in this case) word for the ultimate truth
EDIT:
I think the CORE issue is that all these videos boil down to one thing:
People's definition of what is 'fun' in DbD. And looking at videos, rants and posts of this kind, it would seem that, as mentioned, the definition of fun (for them) is being able to engage the killer in a chase.
All other kinds of 'fun' are the 'wrong' kind. You find fun in playing cat and mouse with the killer/survivor? Wrong kind of fun.
You are bad at chases as survivor? Git Gud, you are 'ruining' everyone's 'fun' because you can't do chases.
and so forth
Post-Oni killers (and heck, even pre-oni killers like hag and nurse) are meant to shake up the gameplay and provide variety. Variety that people like tofu apparently don't want because it let's other people have fun instead of catering to their idea of what's 'fun'
Post edited by MeltingPenguins on2
