Dear BHVR, please stop doing this
Since ages i preach the very obvious number one issue with DbD but for some strange reason, the devs seem to disagree or simply dont care: Unfun killer design.
Prime examples are Slinger or Twins: Very one-dimensional in 1v1, nothing a survivor really can do as long as the Slinger/Victor knows how to play. But in the end of the day, this type of killer still looses against a good team because of no mobility / gen pressure.
Lets have a short lookt at the recent killer releases: (keep in mind, i dont talk about op, i only talk about bad killer design)
Nemesis: Has the problem.
Trickster: the problem. Not obvious because he is so bad,but after his buff which will come, it will be clear very fast.
Twins: Has the problem.
Blight: Does not have the problem.
PH: Has the problem.
Slinger: Has the problem.
Oni: Does not have the problem.
From the last 7 killer, only 2 dont suffer from the "Slinger syndrom" (some more, some less)
The part i dont understand is this:
The 5 "Slinger syndrom" killer i named are not even very powerful, but nevertheless in general unfun to verse (if you like versing them, thats totally fine, but the majority of people wont)
The 2 killer who wont suffer from the bad killer design i was talking about are much stronger but also way more fun to go against (at least according to the overwhelming majority of people i have talked about the issue)
So i really have to wonder: Why are the devs pumping out those type of killers? It should be clear by now, i mean the game is 5 years old - how to create a fun and how to create unfun killer.
Please BHVR, befor you release a killer, double-check if the killer is just another anfun trope of a boremachine. Just because it sounds cool on paper, it does not mean it is in realitiy. Create interactive but strong killer. Mobility or mappressure is much more fun then beeing a 1v1 god, also as playing killer.
Here are tofus 2cents who wants to know more about the topic:
Comments
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What ? You think Blight and Oni don't have the ability to dominate chase as hard as killers like twins or slinger assuming they play extremely well, just like correctly played slinger or twins ?
Of course they do, perfectly played Oni and Blight are just as impossible to beat in chase as is slinger. That's the thing though, nobody plays any of all the killers you mentioned perfectly, everyone makes mistakes playing them as their power's all have some weaknesses and require killers to outplay a survivor, they're not just a free "I win the chase pasively" like old legion was, they need to predict a survivor correctly or get them into unfavorable spot for their powers to work.
Honestly, people are just cherry picking which killers they don't like and tell their powers are problematic while ignoring the the same things for other killers they don't mind. Don't pretend like blight or Oni are in A tier or even S tier while beiing weaker in chase then killers like slinger or twins. They're not, in almost all loops, good blight can force a free hit if he's playing perfectly that requires survivors to make the same prediction he needs to do vs slinger, very reliant on killer failing at a mindgame that's in their favor.
There's nothing wron with any of these killers, some people don't like facing them, others do. All of them require intelligent imput from the killer to earn a hit and have limitation and weaknesses survivors can exploit to beat them even if odds are stacked against them (which makes it ever more satisfying).
I would agree that we've had a lot of chase oriented killers lately and something more original or just different would be nice to see but there's nothing wrong with them. Strong chase killers were in DBD since the beggining, that's nothing new and calling something "unfair" or "unfun" is a argument more based on personal preferences then actul objectivity.
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You missunderstood that point.
A Blight or Oni can not only win chases, they are very powerful aswell. BUT and this is the thing, the chase stays interactive (which you cant say about Twins for example). Against a good Blight, the survivor can still win a chase by outplaying him - this is simply not the case against a Deathslinger. As soon as you are in range, you get hit, no matter what.
That is also why people seem to talk about "W Meta". Dealing with a Slingerish Killer: Press W as slong as it goes, drop the pallet.... repeate. No wonder that we have that now... with those type of killers. Because of interaction = loose survivor.
You are right with one thing.. we always had that in the past, but it is getting overwhelming now... AND like i said, the game is 5 years old, shouldnt they finally learn from their mistake?
Sure, it is my personal taste, but have you ever heard anyone say "Oh nice, Twins... i love chases against Victor, they are so much fun and interactive". I dont.
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Your definition of fun seems to be specifically 'if the killer can be looped very successfully by playing Ring Around the Rosie around the same structure 6x before throwing the pallet and moving onto the next one', and all the killers you take issue with are ones that force the survivor to move on much earlier by making vaults and pallet drops unsafe if the killer is facing you from a short distance away when you take it.
Thing is, running in circles wasn't exactly fun for the killer when the survivor was any good at it, so I have to question if this definition of 'unfun' even matters. I have way more fun playing these types of killers because I'm allowed to be more chill about it and I have more options when faced with a very skilled survivor - meanwhile, smart survivors will use different kinds of maneuvers to evade me and burn my time. Like with PHead and Nemesis, good survivors will try to bait me into using my power by faking out a window vault or feinting in one direction and then juking the other when I commit, or they'll run extremely tight angles, or they'll even turn around and run past you to avoid the hitbox. Plague, survivors lead me to high wall structures and run me around corners for as long as possible. (For the record, I find Nurse the most fun killer to run from, and she'll kill you in 0.5 seconds if you try to standard loop her. Can't loop =/= boring.) If other killers with weaker chase powers have other benefits, and picking a killer who can end a chase early isn't an instant game win for the killer, I don't really see how this is a problem.
The only killer in this list that I have issues with are the Twins, and that list of complaints goes well beyond chase interactivity with Victor.
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Pretty much the same as a said to Kebek.
I dont get whats so hard to understand. Just think about this:
Deathslinger Scenario: Slinger walks ages from one chase to the other. Boring. Ends chase in a few seconds as soon as he is close. Boring. Survivors sit on gens, get short chases. Boring
Hillbilly Scenario: Billy zooms around map within seconds. Fun. Ends chase after half a minute or sometimes a bit longer when the survivor is much better then the billy. Fun. Does it again.
The boring part of a Billy gameplay is super short, but the fun part, the chase, is longer and especially MUCH MUCH MUCH more interactive. How can a match against a Deathslinger be as much fun as a match vs a Billy for example?
Maybe it is just me, but i play the game because of chase and NOT because i like walking around as a killer for ages or hid in a bush as survivor.
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They stay interactive IF they make mistakes, same goes for slinger / twins. I'll just never understand why do people think that one strong chase killer can be outplayed while another one can't be.
What do you do in a short loop vs slinger ? You duck or stop at breakpoints where you think he'll probably shoot or try to mindgame with a pallet stun. Very risky and unlikely to be won by a survivor but that's because they're in a loop that favors the killer, once in shack or a jungle gym, it gets significantly easier as high walls allow you to stall him much longer if you undestand how he works and play your cards right.
What do you do in a sgor loop vs blight ? You pray to gods that he doesn't have direct close by rubble to bounce off (which at least 75% of the time he has) as that's give him a hit the same way slinger gets it, very favored towards him, 100% on him to miss basically. If he doesn't have easy rubble to bounce off, you loop him for 2-3 round, drop pallet, he breaks it and is instantly on you againt forcing you to dodge a rush attack that's extremly favored towards him. Again, in jungle gyms, shack etc, it gets fairer as those structures have more stuff to work with.
For both, the interactivity comes from predicting what they'll do which is hard and unreliable if they play well. Both have high enough skill requirements to not just get hits for free, just the mindgames looks different but in the end, play out about the same as their powers are very strong in chase when mastered.
I'll just never be able to agree with these statements that some strong chase killers are fair while others are unfair when their powers can earn hits about the same, just with a different flavor.
For me, they're all fun as there's nothing more boring then looping powerless M1 killer imo. I'll be glad to take and enjoy all the killers with active chase powers, be it slingers, blights, PHs, nurses or spirits.
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Short answer:
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So ? If you're falling for each raising of the gun, you're mindgaming yourself unnecessarily.
That's part of the power you can't get rid of unless you'd want to trash him or completely rework him which both won't happen. From medium/long range, you have enough time for slight strafe to throw him off without wasting distance, if you're close you're as dead as you would be againt nurse or huntress. Either way, you can't just dodge randomly but at the time you think he'll shoot, not each time he fakes it, it's a prediction, not a reaction like with M1 killers.
I get it, you dislike these kinds of killers which fine but their design isn't fundementaly broken in any way. You can always make an argument that this or that killer is unfair as long as they play perfectly which is about as rare as facing top 0,1% SWF, no killer plays perfectly.
I'll end it here since I think it's best to agree to disagree.
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Mindgaming yourself. Right
So, if he had shot, you would have replied he should have ducked?
EDIT: I never said they are broken. But they are very bad for the game. Short and non interactive chases with killers like these is not a good experience as i have already proven nor is it good game design.
Compensating "balance" with slow killer movement for some nice juicy walking simulator is the icing on the cake.
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How people are still saying Deathslinger is uncounterable is beyond me.
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How people still refuse to read is beyond me.
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Because some youtuber said so
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Come up with your own sentences. Anyway...
You pretty much said Deathslinger is uncounterable because "if the killer doesn't mess up, they just win" which can be applied to any killer, but thankfully we're human and make mistakes constantly, not perfect computers, so you don't have to worry about uncounterable killers because they don't exist.
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Is it really a problem that killers like Twins and Deathslinger that require skillfully gameplay from the killer's part can dominate chases? Deathslinger and Twins do get punished when they fail and survivors still have tools against those killers.
Pallets can still pose an issue for Deathslinger and it's possible to mindgame Deathslinger into taking bad shots.
Twins missing attacks with Victor can be punished by crushing victor and staying grouped can prevent a twins player from snowballing with Victor.
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The Twins have great map pressure. It just not used properly by many because too many Twins players move Victor too far away from Charlotte.
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People really think deathslinger has counterplay in chase huh
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*yawns gently*
Oh, is it time again for the regular 'these killers are unfun because they don't cater to people who take the most fun out of chases and are averse towards all killers that add some variety to the roster' post? seems so.
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Nemesis is fine, people are just roping him in becuase they're... Honestly kind of dumb. Demogorgon has a far more oppressive chase and far less counterplay and free zoning, same as Bubba and Huntress, but no-one complains about them in these discussions. Nemesis has 5-6m range and slows himself down to charge and has a very thin strike.
And besides, survivors have been adopting the hold-W strat for years now, these killers aren't really to blame for that and some of it is is completely wrong, I was a Slinger main purely because he countered predrop-and-W. Plus, these killers are only uninteractive if they don't make mistakes, the opposite of an m1 killer. This is something that a lot of complainers never, ever speak about. Do these killers have issues? Yes. But you have to acknowledge that they take a lot of skill and practice to be oppressive, except for PH.
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He’s uncounterable in the same way nurse is on,y if the player is a god at said killer
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That video just had so many inconsistent complaints, "these killers are too strong" ignoring Spirit and Nurse.
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The video also wants a lot if not all killers to be changed to long down time/high pressure killers aka turning every killer into the Legion.
This would cause the game to become a complete slog and extremely stagnant very quickly due to all the slow down he wants on every killer(Everyone is Forever Legion/Freddy).
This is along with the lack of killer variety which causes a lack of survivor game-play variety and would kill the game very quickly.
Its a rather horribly thought through video.
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The best counterplay you have vs from example Slinger is to run premature and then predrop a pallet before he is even close.. and then repeat. Is this fun for you or anyone else?
He mentioned them aswell, but it is not about how strong a killer is, its about how uninteractive those killers are.
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I think this is a very weak argument... "They stay interactive IF they make mistakes"... this can be applied to pretty much anything.
If one side has to fully rely on that the other side is doing a mistake we have a problem. And i am aware that this goes both ways.
The problem we face is, that the best strategy to win against those killers i mentioned are very very boring (okay, this is my POV but i can not imagine that hiding in a bush or predrop pallet and run is more fun then an actual chase), and we should all work on ideas instead of defending a role because we like them more (and want them to get buffed or whatever)
Stay objective please.
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Exactly, it can be applied to everything. Why is that those ones in particular are the issue?
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Simple:
If those killers i mentioned are played well, they win the chase, no matter how good the survivor is, end of the story. As survivor you have to 100% rely on the killers mistake. Thats the reason why survivor play "boring" against those type of killers so they can avoid the chase in general.
On the other hand, a Billy or a Blight for example have some sort of strenght measurement with the survivor. The better player wins the chase.
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Survivors are not supposed to 'win chases'.
They're supposed to buy their team time to get gens done, then hope their team is altruistic enough to unhook them when they, eventually, get caught. They buy time by extending a chase, not win it.
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when playing trickster it feels like every survivor wins the chase
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Winning a chase does not mean they should never get caught... obviously...
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But you are trying to push for killers who can't control chases themselves and have to rely on survivor mistakes to win.
Like you are just showing you are bias against killers and want to deny a killer's skill because it's unfair to you.
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My goodness.
So because i would love to see more Onis, more Blights or more Billys (who are clearly stronger then Slinger or Twins) i am biased?
Could it be that you think the killer should have full control in a chase, no matter how good the survivor is? You sound like that kind of person, sorry to say that.
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If you don't care if a skilled killer wins the chase, then there are no issues with Deathslinger and Twins.
If you think there is an issue, it's because you don't think a killer should have any control in a chase.
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So, you think the killer should have full control in a chase? Is this what you are trying to say?
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I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with some killers having control in chase. It's good have a variety of killers with different strengths and weakness.
It would be a shame if every killer had the same threat in chase, because some survivors can't stand losing to better players.
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I am beiing objective though. Their powers aren't free "I win chase passively", that's what old Legion used to do and why he was reworked as everyone agreeded he was BS in a chase, these killers they have conditions to meet and require to properly use their powers to win chases.
Counterplay is there, it's very risky (vs the best chase killers) and not reliable and that's exactly as it should be. M1 killers have reliable counterplay as they can chase a very good looper for 5 minutes and not catch him if he plays out the map safely yet why aren't more people asking to remove all safe pallets from the game completely on all maps ? They're the same side of the coin that has 0 counterplay for M1 killer but for survivors but almost no one asks to fix them, yet they all want to ger rid of "unfair" chase killers.
These killers pose a risk and demand you to make a risky read on them to beat them, if you don't feel like taking a chance since you aren't confident in your ability to predict the current killer you face (either he's just too good at using his power or just plays unpredictably etc) you can play it safely and pre drop a pallet.
DBD forces players to make 50/50s in chase all the time, even against M1 killers in unsafe loops but there taking educated guess is ok while taking a 50/50 against a cornet shot vs slinger is somehow different. Please, don't be ridiculous.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. FUN IS SUBJECTIVE.
If you don't like some strong chase killers doesn't mean there aren't others who enjoy them. The killers are fine, not a single killer in DBD wins chases passively just because their power is too strong in chase. None of them need a rework, players just need to get over themselfs and realise that we all have different preferences and it's unrealistic to expet all killers to please everyone with their gameplay.
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I think there is a lot wrong with killers that have full control in a chase. Same with killers that have 2 little control in chase against survivors.
Talking about variety. 5 out of the last 7 killers have range attack. Variety.. :(
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You might be wrong with most of that, at least in my opinion, but you are right with one thing: Fun is indeed subjective. But when the majority dislikes a certain type of killer (and we should not fool ourself now, those killers ARE disliked the most) we should be free to say that this trend has to stop. Which is the point of the topic anyway :)
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You're free to think so.
But, you have no actual proof that majority actually dislikes this certain type of killers. Just from this post you can see more people agreed with me then you (4 upvotes vs 13). Then there are streamers who said some of these killers were unfun and as it so happens, their communites parroted that opinion. And again, those streamer communities aren't in any way proper representation of whole DBD playerbase.
DBD has just recently reached what, 90k players peak. We have exactly 0 data on which killers does the majority of playerbase like or dislike, here on forums it's an extreme fraction of the playerbase.
There was never a full community survey on "which killer you like and dislike" so don't pretend like the opinion you present here is unanimously agreed by a majority of the playerbase.
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True, we dont have data. But from what we hear, see and read, and i am sure you come around a bit aswell and therefor probably agree even you wont admit it, Spirt, Deathslinger and PH will take the cake with ease. Needless to say why that is.
I wonder, once most survivirs finally realise how to play against those killers (the very boring way by running straight ahead and pre drop pallets) will killer come here and complain about that? That this is unfun? I bet my money on that for sure.
EDIT:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/261645/the-rise-of-w#latest
Nevermind...
I wonder why this is the case 🤔
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I'm always for "some" rebalancing to appease the people with fair complains, as long as the changes are reasonable, never for ruining or completely reworking a fine working character like spirit, slinger and PH all are. Some need it more (spirit) others less (PH, sliner) but if all of them stayed as they are now, I'd be 100% fine with it as I enjoy facing all of them just the way they are now.
People always complain about everything they dislike, just now we're in the middle of "wraith is unfair and OP" + "holding W meta is unfair and OP" wave of complains. Just because they complain doesn't mean those are actul problems that need fixing. Wraith is finally a good killer and holding W is fundemental part of DBD since release, neither really should be touched imo as that would break more things than repair.
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