I agree that there should be some changes to the game design... I'm not a game designer so I'm not sure what they'd do. My thought is they should figure out what makes the game 'not fun' for people then adjust from there. It's tough because I am not a very competitive gamer. I'm not sure I'd be playing an asymmetrical game if I was, though.
Thanks, I wasn't trying to be too defensive, but yeah. I think it's valuable to remember that there are five people in each match looking for something. Hopefully, it's to have a good time with the entertainment we've chosen here. I think too often, people are choosing to make the other side suffer which is a weird thing to want to do.
There are ways to tell, but it's still an educated guess at best. No real way to confirm. Generally, however, you can tell by how they time unhooks compared to what you are doing, how well the team as a whole moves around and against you, etc. Are you against a mess or a swarm? These are all hints, of course, not tell-tale signs.
I agree. Also, I am mostly a Survivor main with Killer brain. As such, I try to look at the game as a whole rather than from the perspective of a single side. From that perspective, it becomes much less about telling people how to play, and more about how the game should be designed to be played. That's where I find a lot of faults.
I also have a pretty big love for game mechanics. I love learning them, analyzing them, theory crafting them, etc. This game is a gold mine of "interesting ideas that DO NOT WORK WELL in their current form". There are things that would make this game better for everyone, truth be told. The issue seems to be a mix of devs not wanting to change much about the game and a rather divided community that is extremely adverse to changes to the game and a pension for shifting blame or creating toxic narratives.
I don't know how to end this post, so have a good one, hope you have some good games.
I'm mostly convinced that some Survivors are so determined to remove camping/slugging/tunneling simply because they don't like it, even if they rarely see it, so they invent stories in an attempt to convince the devs that it's more of a problem than it is.
These people just want Killers to have a harder time winning, as I've pointed out is the motive behind most 'punish <x> Killer tactic' threads.
can we please stop pretending that, just because you had some annoying games, everyone who plays killer was actively trying to sabotage and ruin the event?
stuff like this just needlessly fuels the "Us VS Them" mentality so many here already have
Killer players can ruin the fun in a game completely yea. But I ensure you, if you ask a killer main, there will be thing survivors can do that ruins their fun. So it's not only the killers.
I've actually had that happen to me. Once. Only one time.
The player was extremely toxic, however, and taking out some frustration on us that they got from the previous trial. This was a while back with a Huntress that was running old Iri Hatchets and a bandolier to have a stock of them. They also never seemed to understand that they were venting on innocent players, and insisted on being as insulting as possible in the post-game lobby.
That was just one person, one time. I've never held that against other Killer players. However, other people seem to behave like that Huntress and just assign their frustrations with a few to the whole. People like to forget we're all individuals and strawman whatever they don't like for a convenient target.
They act like it happens every map because they want to convince the devs that it happens every match.
They hope to force the Killers to play in a set way that makes it easier for them to win:
If camping is punished or somehow removed; they will have easier unhooks, which means a better chance at escaping. Or get abuseable rewards (Look at the old 'fix' for camping that was removed when Survivors abused the hell out of it)
If Killer's cannot slug; then either they will have an easier time getting people up, or better chances at saves.
And if tunneling is somehow punished; then they can bodyblock Killers who have to avoid 'tunneling' them (Look at Borrowed Time).
All of it is, at its core, ways to tie the Killer's hands, take away player agency, and make the game easier for Survivors.
For all they scream about 'fair play' and 'toxic jerks'; I have NEVER seen a Survivor say 'If we are about to get a 4E, I let the Killer kill me'.
Yet Killers are 'toxic' 'sweats' and 'tryhards' for getting a 4K. Survivors just expect to be given the hatch because they want it. But Killers don't expect a free kill when the gates are open.
Survivers don't let the Killer hook them if they run the Killer for 3-4 gens. Yet Killers are expected to 'stop playing like an ass' if gens have not popped by the time someone is hooked.
It's double-standard hypocritical BS. Killers are expected to cater to Survivor's wants and expectations for a 'fair game' but it never goes the other way.
For all they scream about 'fair play' and 'toxic jerks'; I have NEVER seen a Survivor say 'If we are about to get a 4E, I let the Killer kill me'.
I've done that :D
If I feel like I've bullied a Killer too hard and I'm not aching for a win, I'll throw myself into the jaws of death at the end as an apology. Unless they bring NoED. No remorse for NoED.
Survivors can’t do anything for a fair game, Jesus man. We aren’t taking you hostage and camping you, preventing you from playing the game or anything else.
You keep taking the worst examples of survivors, you don’t run into a 4 man god squad every game. It’s called ######### matchmaking and that’s why bad killers feel like they have to tunnel or camp.
If you got survivors your skill you would know that it’s not needed, but nowadays trash killers reach rank 1 in a few hours and complain about everything survivors do because they don’t know enough about the game.
And you don't run into campers every game. Glad we got that sorted.
Here's the thing: On these very forums, I have NEVER seen a Killer say 'Do you NEED that 4E?! Stop being a sweat and give a Killer a kill!'
Guess what I have seen? 'Do you NEED that 4K!? Stop being a tryhard! Just give final Survivor the hatch!'
I have repeatedly seen Survivors on these forums try to shame Killers for being 'sweats' and 'expecting a 4K'.
It's almost like, to use your words 'nowadays trash Survivors reach rank 1 in a few hours and complain about everything Killers do because they don’t know enough about the game.'
Then, they come to the forums and demand the Devs alter the game to make it so 'cheap tactics' (IE: Anything used to make them lose) are no longer useable.
And...I don't know if you have realized this, given the game is only 5 years old, but the Killer's goal is to remove you from the game.
If you can't handle being removed from a game before you feel you have filled some sort of anomalous fun quota; maybe a PvP game is not for you. There's no checkbox or questionnaire asking you if you had enough fun before letting the Killer kill you.
So I don't get why Survivors keep saying 'The Killer can remove me from the game EARLY!' like this is flawed design. It's a PvP game; someone always dies early in every PvP game ever made. Most people can accept it as part of the PvP experience.
I have yet to see a PvP game that gives people timed immunity to fill a 'fun quota' for both sides.
If it is 4 solos I figure that out pretty quickly and can adjust my play style. Other then that when I play killer I feel like I have to prepare for the worst and put my try hard hat on constantly. It is very difficult to tell who solos are once there is a stack of swf :<
I wish we could see what we were up against... and I wish we could swap killers in lobby. If I knew I was up against 2 solos and a 2 man swf I could play killers I need to practice on. On the other hand if I see I am against a 4 stack swf then I can play my best killer and give them a worthy match. Right now its a gamble.
I know information can be abused but at this point would it really change anything?
As for OP's main post, it takes both sides to have a fun fair match. I play both killer and survivor (and I am solo). I see plenty of survivors making matches unbearable for killers as well.
I am sure there are some things the devs could do to help with toxic game play, but until then we all just need to try and be a bit nicer even when others are not being nice to us. Blaming one side is not helpful and further puts fuel on a massive fire.
>I think killers should be looking at how to make the match fun for everyone playing.
Oh my goodness. People still think that someone else should provide them with fun instead. Superegocentric position. Most survivors will not make gifts to killer in this game. They use every possible means to win, no matter how "unfair" they seem. (remember at least the "antitunnel" DS, which was abused until he was nerfed. Or those who were unhooked with "anti-tunnel" BT just deliberately run right in the face of killer, so that he just wasted his time. And not even in a situation when a wounded teammate is nearby. Just think about it - survivor runs straight into the killer's face, not away from him, and then complains about tunneling. I've seen this many times. ) So why should killers do this gifts? Grow up at last and stop thinking that other people owe you something. You will get just as much fun as you earn with your own efforts. Yes, you can get a gift. But only if they themselves want it. But you DO NOT HAVE the RIGHT to demand this from others.
I play 50/50 on both sides for over 3000 hours. And I never require gens to do slower, or anything else. I play as well as I can without hoping that any of them will make the game easier for me. Because it's just plain stupid. Everyone wants pleasure for themselves first.
This is while I know playing a killer against competent survivors is much more difficult. The killers winrate is now provided only by the total unskilled of most of survivors. However, I never cry in the chat that the gens were turned on too quickly, that I got 4 DH, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, etc. And I never cry for a survivor if I lose. But if I play well on killer, I see whining in every second match. Simply because most of the players are children who cannot take responsibility for their own defeat and prefer to blame someone else for it.
Sometimes you just wanna slug everyone to see if you can win like that. I've tried doing it before I've only succeeded once where I left them to bleed out on the ground but unless its a high mobility killer if you're all getting slugged its prob you the survivor players' fault.
Oh you really do, I get a killer that camps almost every game, more often than not.
I paid for this game, and I should be able to play it without anyone playing scummy to ruin it for me. Sadly I can’t get a refund.
Every killer match I play is a 4K in the red ranks, without tunneling or camping. And I’m not even that good.
I think you should try to play solo queue survivor and see how it is for yourself, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t find it fun getting camped or tunneled at 5 gens.
Same goes for Survivor Community whit calling Killer Players Toxic just because they didnt Play the Game whit the Rules of there non existent Survivor Rules Book
I Play Killer my Job is too hook Survivor so I can get the most BP out of the Match even if i need to tunnel some1 if there are to many Gens done. I didnt care if the match was unfun 4 the Survivor
Alot of my Killer Games are unfun and stressful too because of Frame Drops, Gen Rushing, broken 2nd Chance Perks, 1000 God Palets , 1000 infinite Windows and all of this Survivor-sided Maps
There's no "killer community." There's no "survivor community." This game is not made up of two hive minds working against each other. There's a vicious cycle in this game where when someone has a bad match they then take it out on their opponent(s) in the next match, and even when they're not doing that and they just play to win often the other side has a miserable time because the game doesn't want people to play efficiently (this is obvious from the point systems) but it unfortunately still allows it.
The problem is that the game is poorly designed and it encourages or even pushes people into playing in a way that's not fun for the other side. You cannot convince players to change. For one thing, most players aren't even on these forums. If you want change, stop the us vs them thing and start telling the devs to drop their reverence for player agency and to put players' fun first. You cannot expect players to act as entertainers and make sure everyone else is having fun; people play for themselves. It is the game's job to make sure everyone is having fun, and given the number of complaints on this forum I'd say the devs have failed to design a game that looks out for its players and their fun.
The devs seem to hope their point systems will act as a band-aid fix and keep matches enjoyably interactive, but both sides would have to agree to that beforehand for it to work. Even if both sides in a match would prefer to play in a more laid-back manner, they can't count on their opposition to feel the same way, and in this game even just one mistake can be extremely costly.
And why is that? So you'll keep complaining until this game dies for what? To get attention for getting tunelled? Just move on it's nothing but video game that has zero impact on your actuall life
You're a strange guy, honestly. I have the right to demand anything I want. People can decide to do whatever they will. That's fine. My point may have gone over your head. I think everyone should be trying to make the game fun. I'm really not competing with a survivor when I play and I'm not competing with a killer when I play the other side. I'm sitting on my couch or at my desk doing something I find entertaining. When it stops being entertaining, I find something else to entertain myself with. I DO play more survivor than killer but when I play either side, I try to figure out how to make the game fun. The fact that the game has no real win condition makes that easier for me. I'm sure that there are times that survivors don't like my style as killer but I certainly don't want to be hooking someone out of a match without doing anything else just because I'm not creative enough to find a better way to play.
Can I flip it around and say that a good killer can beat any killer or are you gonna have a double standard? because if that s the case then we need to nerf some killers...
Nevermind DCers, Survivor who abuse the permanent 150% movement speed exploit, find map clippings where it's impossible for a killer to pick up a survivor, ridiculously easy gen times, constant second chance perks, etc.
You can demand, but nobody cares about it. Nobody in this world owes anything to anyone. From strangers at least.
>I think everyone should be trying to make the game fun.
This could only work if everyone, or at least most, wanted it. But in reality, being an altruist in the world of egoists, only you will lose. Also, there is always a winner and a loser in the game. You are unlikely to make both happy. Some people just need to learn to accept defeat.
>I try to figure out how to make the game fun.
I don't want to figure out how to make the game fun for everyone, while my opponents want to make it fun only for themselves. In reality, the majority behave this way.
>I certainly don't want to be hooking someone out of a match without doing anything else just because I'm not creative enough to find a better way to play.
It's not a question of creativity. It's a question of balance. And you would have understood this if you don't play more survivor than killer.
>without doing anything else
Btw, nobody said "stand there and do nothing more." For many survivors, it is enough to see you return to the hook to complain. Even if you gave enough chances to save for others. Actually 50-80% of my "camp and tunnel" is caused by survivors' mistakes. For example, sitting on gen to the last, missing the moment when it was possible to save. Their teammates just traded them for gens. But, of course, the killer is to blame, who should not have come near the hook at all, so that they could invest as much time as possible in gens, and then save by the end of the stage. As a survivor, I always think about how and when to do it better. But they don't want to use their brains. They prefer to simply demand that killer play in a way that suits them. It is your task to beat him and think about how best to do it. If killer just stands at hook and does nothing, he will lose with smart survivors. And if he is smart, then he also understands it. So your task is to make him want to get away from hook. Make to think him what stand there will be unprofitable. And smart survivors will find how to do it. Or just two will come running and unhooked him. Or he gets his one kill and other three flee. I have verified this personally, many times. But most simply cannot turn on their heads and evaluate the match globally. They just hear terror and immediately call it camp and tunneling, they do not understand at all what the killer is doing at the moment.
Beat any survivor, you mean? Not. The balance in this game is on the side of the survivors. 4 smart survivors - have a chance to beat any killer much more than 50%. And if the killer plays on "fairplay" - much more. I am far from always play "non-fairplay" killer. But only because in a public now has a huge number of weak survivors.
Reminds me of last Saturday night my friend & I played games & the night was nothing but tunnelers; they tunneled my friend &I, game after game. Personally idc about being tunneled. The last game my friend was tunneled so badly he stopped playing early because the last killer was tumbling off hook & wouldn’t stop.
Sorry, my main point wasn't about 'just standing there' in a hook situation. I was addressing your complaint about gen-rushing. Survivors that just do gens then leave (as an extreme example, the killer does nothing; I've seen this with AFK killers), end up with a ######### match. Sure they escape (throw some confetti, I guess), but they achieved almost nothing toward any measureable goal like scoring bloodpoints, increasing rank, etc.
I suppose you're right, we shouldn't expect anyone to be anything but selfish and these forums should be used for discussing other matters. Sorry to waste your time with an opinion that is not your own.
I get the same in almost every game in purple ranks. Camping and tunneling non stop. I stopped bringing cakes because it's just a waste at this point. Long killer queues are a good indicator where this game is headed. If camping as a minimum is not addressed killer queues are going to go into half an hour territory. There is no reason DS and Kindred shouldn't be base kit. And I'm saying it as killer main who switched to survivor due to wanting to play instead of waiting for lobby.
And if you take away Killer player's choice in how they play, or force mechanics on them that could cost them a full kill or the game; you can see Survivor queue times start to climb as Killers quit.
No one wants to play a game where the game takes away your choice, then makes you lose for it. Hence why there are no 'punishments' or 'fixes' for camping/tunneling/slugging; anything put in place would either be abused (See; old anti-camping mechanic), or remove player agency.
And no; DS should not be base kit. Hell freaking no do I want a new 4 perk meta plus DS in every match. That would be so broken it's not funny.
And guess why Kindred is not base kit? Because it would 100% negate Insidious. You can't make a perk basekit that hard counters another perk.
Just because Survivors have this idea in their head that they get to choose how Killers play, does not mean they actually get to choose how Killers play. They don't pick Killer perks, Killers, or tactics. Any more than Killers pick Survivor perks or tactics.
This is the only game, in my nearly 40 years of gaming, where I've ever seen one side so utterly convinced that they can dictate the actions of their opponent, and demanded it from the devs.
I'm hating being tunneled and slugged constantly as survivor, too, but there are multiple factors at work screwing up the queue. Killers make more BP than survivors in the average match, so during BP events a lot of survivors switch to playing killer. Every BP event since I started playing in 2018, the killer queue is longer than normal. Also, because killers don't have event items, killers get waaaaay more cakes on their Bloodwebs.
And finally, PC has always had a large number of killers; the huge number of survivors is from console. However, right now console players are experiencing debilitating performance problems that have many of them unable to play the game. Fewer console players means disproportionately fewer survivor players as opposed to fewer killer players. That started when the RE chapter went live and has gotten worse with each hotfix.
Look, you can imagine in your head as much as you want that there is a global conspiracy of survivors trying to take away your agency... But the reality is that not punishing toxic mechanic results is less people playing survivor and the queues will continue getting longer and longer for killers. Either promote non-toxic gameplay or get stuck with long queues. Your choice. I don't care either way because Battlefield 2142 is just a few months away and I'm dumping this toxic community.
"And guess why Kindred is not base kit? Because it would 100% negate Insidious." - It doesn't counter Insidious 100%. You can still use it just not next to the hook.
"No one wants to play a game where the game takes away your choice, then makes you lose for it." - Exactly, Bubba camping hook with Insidious is taking away choice from survivors. All they can do at this point is M1 on gens. And the player being camped is guaranteed to lose. Where is the choice here? Or are you saying it's only okay to take choice from survivors, but not killers?
Just because you play both sides, doesn't mean everyone else does. You have no proof that there isn't a killer and survivor community, just like OP doesn't have a proof that there is one. If you have proof, please feel free to add a link to official statistics.
What the game needs is for the very possibility of tunneling, camping, and slugging to be removed while adding more objectives and slowing down matches with built-in gameplay rather than putting the overwhelming onus of it on killers.
Player agency is well and good up to a point, but other games I've played balance that with making sure players have fun. In DbD, whichever side you play, bad matches are frustrating and miserable in a way I've never experienced in other games.
People on this forum are ridiculous, asking players to change their ways, asking devs to ban and punish certain playstyles. That's not how a game is made better. We look like angry children lashing out at each other, of course the devs don't take any of it seriously even though it's a symptom of a big problem in their game.
Personally, I find hooking boring. I'd much prefer kill animations and then survivors are able to revive each other or something. But maybe that's just me. I'd like more horror, less gen-repair sim, less watching other people play while I slowly die on the sidelines, less stress because three gens pop while I'm in my first chase.
No one designing a game should ever have said "wow, tunneling, slugging, and camping, these sound like super fun mechanics that everyone will enjoy!" Yet they stay in the game because they're already here and it's easier on the devs than coming up with something better, and people defend those tactics because they're necessary in the game's current state, but the game's current state isn't good.
I'm talking into a void, though. I don't mean you, personally, I mean that changing the game to make it a fun experience would require so much change that it'll never happen, and I know that, my posts are futile. But all these posts demanding players change aren't just futile, they're unhealthy for the community, they perpetuate the survivor vs killer attitude that helps make bad matches such a negative experience, so I'll keep talking to the void.
I imagine it depends on location alot. Actual face camping is rare for me to see. Heavy proxy camping and tunneling is pretty common though.
I agree that there should be some changes to the game design... I'm not a game designer so I'm not sure what they'd do. My thought is they should figure out what makes the game 'not fun' for people then adjust from there. It's tough because I am not a very competitive gamer. I'm not sure I'd be playing an asymmetrical game if I was, though.
Thanks, I wasn't trying to be too defensive, but yeah. I think it's valuable to remember that there are five people in each match looking for something. Hopefully, it's to have a good time with the entertainment we've chosen here. I think too often, people are choosing to make the other side suffer which is a weird thing to want to do.
There are ways to tell, but it's still an educated guess at best. No real way to confirm. Generally, however, you can tell by how they time unhooks compared to what you are doing, how well the team as a whole moves around and against you, etc. Are you against a mess or a swarm? These are all hints, of course, not tell-tale signs.
Both side are killing this game.
I mean your pfp suggests you don't get slugged
I agree. Also, I am mostly a Survivor main with Killer brain. As such, I try to look at the game as a whole rather than from the perspective of a single side. From that perspective, it becomes much less about telling people how to play, and more about how the game should be designed to be played. That's where I find a lot of faults.
I also have a pretty big love for game mechanics. I love learning them, analyzing them, theory crafting them, etc. This game is a gold mine of "interesting ideas that DO NOT WORK WELL in their current form". There are things that would make this game better for everyone, truth be told. The issue seems to be a mix of devs not wanting to change much about the game and a rather divided community that is extremely adverse to changes to the game and a pension for shifting blame or creating toxic narratives.
I don't know how to end this post, so have a good one, hope you have some good games.
Yeah proxy camping and tunneling sure, more common
Because killers have too much power.
Next patch: Another killer buff.
I regret to spill the very bad news, there is no hope for survivors. Survivors will continue to be nerfed as long as they allow it.
Same.
I've been at R1 on both sides since April 2019.
I'm sure we'll run into each orher soon.
I'm mostly convinced that some Survivors are so determined to remove camping/slugging/tunneling simply because they don't like it, even if they rarely see it, so they invent stories in an attempt to convince the devs that it's more of a problem than it is.
These people just want Killers to have a harder time winning, as I've pointed out is the motive behind most 'punish <x> Killer tactic' threads.
ugh
can we please stop pretending that, just because you had some annoying games, everyone who plays killer was actively trying to sabotage and ruin the event?
stuff like this just needlessly fuels the "Us VS Them" mentality so many here already have
You seem boring to play against, pretty sure you are the type to camp someone for looping you.
Killer players can ruin the fun in a game completely yea. But I ensure you, if you ask a killer main, there will be thing survivors can do that ruins their fun. So it's not only the killers.
I've actually had that happen to me. Once. Only one time.
The player was extremely toxic, however, and taking out some frustration on us that they got from the previous trial. This was a while back with a Huntress that was running old Iri Hatchets and a bandolier to have a stock of them. They also never seemed to understand that they were venting on innocent players, and insisted on being as insulting as possible in the post-game lobby.
That was just one person, one time. I've never held that against other Killer players. However, other people seem to behave like that Huntress and just assign their frustrations with a few to the whole. People like to forget we're all individuals and strawman whatever they don't like for a convenient target.
Should I care about your opinion on how I may or may not play?
They act like it happens every map because they want to convince the devs that it happens every match.
They hope to force the Killers to play in a set way that makes it easier for them to win:
If camping is punished or somehow removed; they will have easier unhooks, which means a better chance at escaping. Or get abuseable rewards (Look at the old 'fix' for camping that was removed when Survivors abused the hell out of it)
If Killer's cannot slug; then either they will have an easier time getting people up, or better chances at saves.
And if tunneling is somehow punished; then they can bodyblock Killers who have to avoid 'tunneling' them (Look at Borrowed Time).
All of it is, at its core, ways to tie the Killer's hands, take away player agency, and make the game easier for Survivors.
For all they scream about 'fair play' and 'toxic jerks'; I have NEVER seen a Survivor say 'If we are about to get a 4E, I let the Killer kill me'.
Yet Killers are 'toxic' 'sweats' and 'tryhards' for getting a 4K. Survivors just expect to be given the hatch because they want it. But Killers don't expect a free kill when the gates are open.
Survivers don't let the Killer hook them if they run the Killer for 3-4 gens. Yet Killers are expected to 'stop playing like an ass' if gens have not popped by the time someone is hooked.
It's double-standard hypocritical BS. Killers are expected to cater to Survivor's wants and expectations for a 'fair game' but it never goes the other way.
For all they scream about 'fair play' and 'toxic jerks'; I have NEVER seen a Survivor say 'If we are about to get a 4E, I let the Killer kill me'.
I've done that :D
If I feel like I've bullied a Killer too hard and I'm not aching for a win, I'll throw myself into the jaws of death at the end as an apology. Unless they bring NoED. No remorse for NoED.
Survivors can’t do anything for a fair game, Jesus man. We aren’t taking you hostage and camping you, preventing you from playing the game or anything else.
You keep taking the worst examples of survivors, you don’t run into a 4 man god squad every game. It’s called ######### matchmaking and that’s why bad killers feel like they have to tunnel or camp.
If you got survivors your skill you would know that it’s not needed, but nowadays trash killers reach rank 1 in a few hours and complain about everything survivors do because they don’t know enough about the game.
Why are survivor mains so entilted?
That is nice of you. :)
In my 200 hours as Killer, I have never had it happen.
And you don't run into campers every game. Glad we got that sorted.
Here's the thing: On these very forums, I have NEVER seen a Killer say 'Do you NEED that 4E?! Stop being a sweat and give a Killer a kill!'
Guess what I have seen? 'Do you NEED that 4K!? Stop being a tryhard! Just give final Survivor the hatch!'
I have repeatedly seen Survivors on these forums try to shame Killers for being 'sweats' and 'expecting a 4K'.
It's almost like, to use your words 'nowadays trash Survivors reach rank 1 in a few hours and complain about everything Killers do because they don’t know enough about the game.'
Then, they come to the forums and demand the Devs alter the game to make it so 'cheap tactics' (IE: Anything used to make them lose) are no longer useable.
And...I don't know if you have realized this, given the game is only 5 years old, but the Killer's goal is to remove you from the game.
If you can't handle being removed from a game before you feel you have filled some sort of anomalous fun quota; maybe a PvP game is not for you. There's no checkbox or questionnaire asking you if you had enough fun before letting the Killer kill you.
So I don't get why Survivors keep saying 'The Killer can remove me from the game EARLY!' like this is flawed design. It's a PvP game; someone always dies early in every PvP game ever made. Most people can accept it as part of the PvP experience.
I have yet to see a PvP game that gives people timed immunity to fill a 'fun quota' for both sides.
If it is 4 solos I figure that out pretty quickly and can adjust my play style. Other then that when I play killer I feel like I have to prepare for the worst and put my try hard hat on constantly. It is very difficult to tell who solos are once there is a stack of swf :<
I wish we could see what we were up against... and I wish we could swap killers in lobby. If I knew I was up against 2 solos and a 2 man swf I could play killers I need to practice on. On the other hand if I see I am against a 4 stack swf then I can play my best killer and give them a worthy match. Right now its a gamble.
I know information can be abused but at this point would it really change anything?
As for OP's main post, it takes both sides to have a fun fair match. I play both killer and survivor (and I am solo). I see plenty of survivors making matches unbearable for killers as well.
I am sure there are some things the devs could do to help with toxic game play, but until then we all just need to try and be a bit nicer even when others are not being nice to us. Blaming one side is not helpful and further puts fuel on a massive fire.
I stop tunneling and camping, when I stop seeing toxicity from survivors and time to gens done will be increased.
Good survivors can beat any killer.
@Sypherpathic
>I think killers should be looking at how to make the match fun for everyone playing.
Oh my goodness. People still think that someone else should provide them with fun instead. Superegocentric position. Most survivors will not make gifts to killer in this game. They use every possible means to win, no matter how "unfair" they seem. (remember at least the "antitunnel" DS, which was abused until he was nerfed. Or those who were unhooked with "anti-tunnel" BT just deliberately run right in the face of killer, so that he just wasted his time. And not even in a situation when a wounded teammate is nearby. Just think about it - survivor runs straight into the killer's face, not away from him, and then complains about tunneling. I've seen this many times. ) So why should killers do this gifts? Grow up at last and stop thinking that other people owe you something. You will get just as much fun as you earn with your own efforts. Yes, you can get a gift. But only if they themselves want it. But you DO NOT HAVE the RIGHT to demand this from others.
I play 50/50 on both sides for over 3000 hours. And I never require gens to do slower, or anything else. I play as well as I can without hoping that any of them will make the game easier for me. Because it's just plain stupid. Everyone wants pleasure for themselves first.
This is while I know playing a killer against competent survivors is much more difficult. The killers winrate is now provided only by the total unskilled of most of survivors. However, I never cry in the chat that the gens were turned on too quickly, that I got 4 DH, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, etc. And I never cry for a survivor if I lose. But if I play well on killer, I see whining in every second match. Simply because most of the players are children who cannot take responsibility for their own defeat and prefer to blame someone else for it.
>Quite often you will find it full of "Camping/tunneling/trash killer comments".
Most good killer players will have comments like this. For the reason described above.
Sometimes you just wanna slug everyone to see if you can win like that. I've tried doing it before I've only succeeded once where I left them to bleed out on the ground but unless its a high mobility killer if you're all getting slugged its prob you the survivor players' fault.
Oh you really do, I get a killer that camps almost every game, more often than not.
I paid for this game, and I should be able to play it without anyone playing scummy to ruin it for me. Sadly I can’t get a refund.
Every killer match I play is a 4K in the red ranks, without tunneling or camping. And I’m not even that good.
I think you should try to play solo queue survivor and see how it is for yourself, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t find it fun getting camped or tunneled at 5 gens.
Same goes for Survivor Community whit calling Killer Players Toxic just because they didnt Play the Game whit the Rules of there non existent Survivor Rules Book
I Play Killer my Job is too hook Survivor so I can get the most BP out of the Match even if i need to tunnel some1 if there are to many Gens done. I didnt care if the match was unfun 4 the Survivor
Alot of my Killer Games are unfun and stressful too because of Frame Drops, Gen Rushing, broken 2nd Chance Perks, 1000 God Palets , 1000 infinite Windows and all of this Survivor-sided Maps
There's no "killer community." There's no "survivor community." This game is not made up of two hive minds working against each other. There's a vicious cycle in this game where when someone has a bad match they then take it out on their opponent(s) in the next match, and even when they're not doing that and they just play to win often the other side has a miserable time because the game doesn't want people to play efficiently (this is obvious from the point systems) but it unfortunately still allows it.
The problem is that the game is poorly designed and it encourages or even pushes people into playing in a way that's not fun for the other side. You cannot convince players to change. For one thing, most players aren't even on these forums. If you want change, stop the us vs them thing and start telling the devs to drop their reverence for player agency and to put players' fun first. You cannot expect players to act as entertainers and make sure everyone else is having fun; people play for themselves. It is the game's job to make sure everyone is having fun, and given the number of complaints on this forum I'd say the devs have failed to design a game that looks out for its players and their fun.
The devs seem to hope their point systems will act as a band-aid fix and keep matches enjoyably interactive, but both sides would have to agree to that beforehand for it to work. Even if both sides in a match would prefer to play in a more laid-back manner, they can't count on their opposition to feel the same way, and in this game even just one mistake can be extremely costly.
It is just spirit players dropping there rank deliberately and destroying worse players with no regard to how they are killing the game.
And why is that? So you'll keep complaining until this game dies for what? To get attention for getting tunelled? Just move on it's nothing but video game that has zero impact on your actuall life
You're a strange guy, honestly. I have the right to demand anything I want. People can decide to do whatever they will. That's fine. My point may have gone over your head. I think everyone should be trying to make the game fun. I'm really not competing with a survivor when I play and I'm not competing with a killer when I play the other side. I'm sitting on my couch or at my desk doing something I find entertaining. When it stops being entertaining, I find something else to entertain myself with. I DO play more survivor than killer but when I play either side, I try to figure out how to make the game fun. The fact that the game has no real win condition makes that easier for me. I'm sure that there are times that survivors don't like my style as killer but I certainly don't want to be hooking someone out of a match without doing anything else just because I'm not creative enough to find a better way to play.
Can I flip it around and say that a good killer can beat any killer or are you gonna have a double standard? because if that s the case then we need to nerf some killers...
Good job Agent 42....we got him.
Cause the Fortnite kids are growing up? /shrug.
Why can't we all just get along and not demonize each other.
Nevermind DCers, Survivor who abuse the permanent 150% movement speed exploit, find map clippings where it's impossible for a killer to pick up a survivor, ridiculously easy gen times, constant second chance perks, etc.
Just take a break.
You can demand, but nobody cares about it. Nobody in this world owes anything to anyone. From strangers at least.
>I think everyone should be trying to make the game fun.
This could only work if everyone, or at least most, wanted it. But in reality, being an altruist in the world of egoists, only you will lose. Also, there is always a winner and a loser in the game. You are unlikely to make both happy. Some people just need to learn to accept defeat.
>I try to figure out how to make the game fun.
I don't want to figure out how to make the game fun for everyone, while my opponents want to make it fun only for themselves. In reality, the majority behave this way.
>I certainly don't want to be hooking someone out of a match without doing anything else just because I'm not creative enough to find a better way to play.
It's not a question of creativity. It's a question of balance. And you would have understood this if you don't play more survivor than killer.
>without doing anything else
Btw, nobody said "stand there and do nothing more." For many survivors, it is enough to see you return to the hook to complain. Even if you gave enough chances to save for others. Actually 50-80% of my "camp and tunnel" is caused by survivors' mistakes. For example, sitting on gen to the last, missing the moment when it was possible to save. Their teammates just traded them for gens. But, of course, the killer is to blame, who should not have come near the hook at all, so that they could invest as much time as possible in gens, and then save by the end of the stage. As a survivor, I always think about how and when to do it better. But they don't want to use their brains. They prefer to simply demand that killer play in a way that suits them. It is your task to beat him and think about how best to do it. If killer just stands at hook and does nothing, he will lose with smart survivors. And if he is smart, then he also understands it. So your task is to make him want to get away from hook. Make to think him what stand there will be unprofitable. And smart survivors will find how to do it. Or just two will come running and unhooked him. Or he gets his one kill and other three flee. I have verified this personally, many times. But most simply cannot turn on their heads and evaluate the match globally. They just hear terror and immediately call it camp and tunneling, they do not understand at all what the killer is doing at the moment.
Beat any survivor, you mean? Not. The balance in this game is on the side of the survivors. 4 smart survivors - have a chance to beat any killer much more than 50%. And if the killer plays on "fairplay" - much more. I am far from always play "non-fairplay" killer. But only because in a public now has a huge number of weak survivors.
Are you playing with crossplay? Which platform?
Reminds me of last Saturday night my friend & I played games & the night was nothing but tunnelers; they tunneled my friend &I, game after game. Personally idc about being tunneled. The last game my friend was tunneled so badly he stopped playing early because the last killer was tumbling off hook & wouldn’t stop.
I knew you would have an incredible hypocritical double standard.
I play on pc, I recently turned off crossplay because console players having issues...
Sorry, my main point wasn't about 'just standing there' in a hook situation. I was addressing your complaint about gen-rushing. Survivors that just do gens then leave (as an extreme example, the killer does nothing; I've seen this with AFK killers), end up with a ######### match. Sure they escape (throw some confetti, I guess), but they achieved almost nothing toward any measureable goal like scoring bloodpoints, increasing rank, etc.
I suppose you're right, we shouldn't expect anyone to be anything but selfish and these forums should be used for discussing other matters. Sorry to waste your time with an opinion that is not your own.
I get the same in almost every game in purple ranks. Camping and tunneling non stop. I stopped bringing cakes because it's just a waste at this point. Long killer queues are a good indicator where this game is headed. If camping as a minimum is not addressed killer queues are going to go into half an hour territory. There is no reason DS and Kindred shouldn't be base kit. And I'm saying it as killer main who switched to survivor due to wanting to play instead of waiting for lobby.
And if you take away Killer player's choice in how they play, or force mechanics on them that could cost them a full kill or the game; you can see Survivor queue times start to climb as Killers quit.
No one wants to play a game where the game takes away your choice, then makes you lose for it. Hence why there are no 'punishments' or 'fixes' for camping/tunneling/slugging; anything put in place would either be abused (See; old anti-camping mechanic), or remove player agency.
And no; DS should not be base kit. Hell freaking no do I want a new 4 perk meta plus DS in every match. That would be so broken it's not funny.
And guess why Kindred is not base kit? Because it would 100% negate Insidious. You can't make a perk basekit that hard counters another perk.
Just because Survivors have this idea in their head that they get to choose how Killers play, does not mean they actually get to choose how Killers play. They don't pick Killer perks, Killers, or tactics. Any more than Killers pick Survivor perks or tactics.
This is the only game, in my nearly 40 years of gaming, where I've ever seen one side so utterly convinced that they can dictate the actions of their opponent, and demanded it from the devs.
I'm hating being tunneled and slugged constantly as survivor, too, but there are multiple factors at work screwing up the queue. Killers make more BP than survivors in the average match, so during BP events a lot of survivors switch to playing killer. Every BP event since I started playing in 2018, the killer queue is longer than normal. Also, because killers don't have event items, killers get waaaaay more cakes on their Bloodwebs.
And finally, PC has always had a large number of killers; the huge number of survivors is from console. However, right now console players are experiencing debilitating performance problems that have many of them unable to play the game. Fewer console players means disproportionately fewer survivor players as opposed to fewer killer players. That started when the RE chapter went live and has gotten worse with each hotfix.
There is no such thing as "killer community" just play full game on both sides, not just half of it
Look, you can imagine in your head as much as you want that there is a global conspiracy of survivors trying to take away your agency... But the reality is that not punishing toxic mechanic results is less people playing survivor and the queues will continue getting longer and longer for killers. Either promote non-toxic gameplay or get stuck with long queues. Your choice. I don't care either way because Battlefield 2142 is just a few months away and I'm dumping this toxic community.
"And guess why Kindred is not base kit? Because it would 100% negate Insidious." - It doesn't counter Insidious 100%. You can still use it just not next to the hook.
"No one wants to play a game where the game takes away your choice, then makes you lose for it." - Exactly, Bubba camping hook with Insidious is taking away choice from survivors. All they can do at this point is M1 on gens. And the player being camped is guaranteed to lose. Where is the choice here? Or are you saying it's only okay to take choice from survivors, but not killers?
Just because you play both sides, doesn't mean everyone else does. You have no proof that there isn't a killer and survivor community, just like OP doesn't have a proof that there is one. If you have proof, please feel free to add a link to official statistics.
What the game needs is for the very possibility of tunneling, camping, and slugging to be removed while adding more objectives and slowing down matches with built-in gameplay rather than putting the overwhelming onus of it on killers.
Player agency is well and good up to a point, but other games I've played balance that with making sure players have fun. In DbD, whichever side you play, bad matches are frustrating and miserable in a way I've never experienced in other games.
People on this forum are ridiculous, asking players to change their ways, asking devs to ban and punish certain playstyles. That's not how a game is made better. We look like angry children lashing out at each other, of course the devs don't take any of it seriously even though it's a symptom of a big problem in their game.
Personally, I find hooking boring. I'd much prefer kill animations and then survivors are able to revive each other or something. But maybe that's just me. I'd like more horror, less gen-repair sim, less watching other people play while I slowly die on the sidelines, less stress because three gens pop while I'm in my first chase.
No one designing a game should ever have said "wow, tunneling, slugging, and camping, these sound like super fun mechanics that everyone will enjoy!" Yet they stay in the game because they're already here and it's easier on the devs than coming up with something better, and people defend those tactics because they're necessary in the game's current state, but the game's current state isn't good.
I'm talking into a void, though. I don't mean you, personally, I mean that changing the game to make it a fun experience would require so much change that it'll never happen, and I know that, my posts are futile. But all these posts demanding players change aren't just futile, they're unhealthy for the community, they perpetuate the survivor vs killer attitude that helps make bad matches such a negative experience, so I'll keep talking to the void.
Huh, Survivors let 3 teammates go down before attempting a pickup and it's the killers fault?
Killers kill, how they do that is up to them. As far as I'm concerned they are meeting the title requirement.
Its known that pc player who play without crossplay are really sweaty. So thats probably the problem.
I literally turned it off yesterday, I'm talking out of past experiences with cross play on..