Are the hooks a design failure?
Just think about it, Hooks removes the survivor ability to play the game and killers like Leatherface can facecamp someone the whole game since they have no incentive to move away from it. Other asymmetrical games does this way better. Example: Last Year puts survivor in random lockers where killers have incentive to go there. Home Sweet Home Survive have a revival system like Apex Legends. Seriously, they should just rework the hook in general. Everyone wants to play the game, not only the killer.
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Because hooks and hook states are the only non reversable resource the killer has. Healthstates can just be healed just like gen regress can be reprogressed. Done gens are the equivalent.
And for your example of last year, that game has a time limit and instant kill spots. Do you want those in DBD?
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the cage system like pyramid head has might be a good idea on hooks but still that bubba will probably go find and tunnel that person maybe problem is not the hooks the player is and in some cases camping is only thing to do like no gen left you got a hook all you can do is now protect the hook it isn't simple thing but I can see the point of what you said
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Hooks removes the survivor ability to play the game and killers like Leatherface can facecamp someone the whole game since they have no incentive to move away from it.
That's not a hook problem, that's a Bubba problem. On-demand instadown that can chew through multiple survivors and cancel out BT is why facecamp Bubba exists.
Hooks aren't a problem. Getting put in timeout because you were taken down isn't that big of an issue, especially since you're technically at your safest while you're on a hook, allowing you some down-time from what could otherwise be a high-octane game. What's a problem is that killers can sit on a hook for an extended period of time without any in-match punishment for it.
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I tottaly agree with this maybe waiting to much near to a hook when there is still gens to protect killer should be punished
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One of the main reasons why games like Last Year and Home Sweet Home is having a hard time keeping it's server slots filled (though Last Year more so than HSH) is BECAUSE of the revival system.
Taking out some of the pressure from the game by permanently killing off one of your opponents as Killer is why people are able to keep playing Killer without getting absolutely steamrolled every game.
Being facecamped is a Leatherface problem, but the developers have said in the past that facecamping isn't considered cheating. People are free to do so if they want, and you are not likely to face facecampers every game. Because if a Killer camps the hook, that is most likely just going to be a detriment to them. It's why despite basement Bubba being a meme, no one really runs it.
No one wants to feel like all of their progress is completely nullified when playing the supposed "Power Role" in an asymm game. You're forced to split your pressure on multiple points of the map and that is not very fun, is it?
If one survivor is about to die, you'd be stupid to not make sure they stay dead because that makes it one less survivor that will be holding M1 on generators.
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Honestly, I should have named this as Leatherface design failure. Most of the killers are bad at camping. It's just this one killer... ruins everyone experience. And the devs did nothing even when it's clearly a problem.
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They might be, however, putting a survivor on a hook you can control is one of the few ways killers can control a match. Killers, unfortunately, do not have all the time in the world to patrol every corner of the map. Killers need to establish certain more controllable areas around points of interest. One of those points of interest consists of hooked survivors.
If you make hooks function like Pyramid Head's cages, you will make most of the roster completely unplayable unless you're playing against literal potatoes on top of keyboards and even the strongest killers will struggle against competent teams simply because they physically will not have the time to allow that kind of reset.
It is in a killer's best interest to put survivors close to a group of 3 or 4 gens that they want to control, make those unhooks as hard as possible, make it so that even if the unhook happens, that the survivors don't heal, and slowly build up a dead zone around that control area.
Now, would it be healthier for the game if killers allowed survivors to reset every single time? Maybe. It's not possible with the way the game is currently designed.
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Some sort of system to force survivors into doing something else (rescues) is still needed, however as hooks currently work there can be a lot of room for improvement. With chases getting shorter and more frequent, if you want killers to work towards 12 hook games there needs to be some sort of adjustment, the amount of time a killer will take *just hooking and walking to hooks* in a 12 hook game is almost enough to get all gens done by itself.
I like the cages that PH has, although just a flat buff to hook walking speed could be enough. You still need rescues as liked it or not, playing around hook saves and yes, camping and proxy camping is one of the most interactive parts of a game for survivors and killers, and the more interaction between killers and survivors the more fun the games are.
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Ok, I agree that hooks design is a bit off, but VERY far from the reasons you list.
You claim the killer has no incentive to leave a hook…yes they do! Camping makes killers lose. If they still win, your team is at fault for not doing their job, gens.
A facecamping killer will only kill 1, maybe 2 survivors if they hook the 1st early enough.
The reason I think hooks are a little bit flawed mechanically, is the astronomical amount of time it takes to hook a survivor. 2 second pickup animation, journey to the hook, another 2 second animation. Sometimes hooking a survivor can take 30 seconds…that’s almost half a gen!
Why do people think slugging is so popular? It immobilizes the survivor in a much quicker way.
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Hooks are definitely a design failure, but it's too late to do anything about them in DBD.
For DBD2 they should redo them. But who knows if we're even going to get a DBD2. As long as people are happily throwing money BHVR's way every time they release a new cosmetic DBD2 gets pushed over and over.
This game has a lot of massive design failures, but its too late to fix any of them. All we can hope is that BHVR will someday make DBD2 and remove all the bad design problems.
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It's the opposite. Camping makes killers win except against the most coordinated and skilled teams.
Against 90% of the players camping wins games.
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I believe they become a problem when most if not all your perks are encouraged to be based around the one thing a “hooks” , instead of creating other dynamics that encourage other play styles and perk builds.
For as many perks as this game has, most of them would seem like a waste because as a survivor you are constantly trying to counter play styles that exist in every match.
I think developers should focus on creating other types of interactions. Rather than creating these “moments” when a Killer is just sitting at the hook and making it about what the game isn’t about.
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This
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So…teams fault. There is no scenario where there is a killer camping, that WINS unless the survivors let it happen.
The reason they get those wins…is all of them will come try to greed he save…no one on gens.
As soon as you notice the killer is camping, push gens. EZ win. Hiding behind a tree for 2 minutes hoping an unhook opportunity will open up will do you no favors.
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If people were not spending money on DBD - there would be absolutely no chance of a DBD2 - that is basic business - you don't create a sequel to something that is not profitable - especially in the gaming industry. Everyone talks about a DBD2, but without MAJOR revisions to graphics - which they are already doing in maps... and major game mechanic changes (what would those even look like) why exactly would they create a DBD2 at this point - seems a bit premature. My guess is that if there were going to be a DBD2 it would be at least another 3 years before it appeared - this would allow time for Unreal engine 5 (which fully launches in 2022) to work any kinks out etc.
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Killer: *Camps*
Survivors: *Walk towards the Killer THAT CAN KILL THEM*
Also Survivors: Camping is not fair! Gimmy my free unhooks! Punish Killers for not following our invented honor system that exists to control how they play! Force Killers to play badly so I can win!
Watching people demand for limitations on how THEIR OPPONENT plays is getting boring, fast.
If you can't accept being removed in a game where your opponent's goal is to remove you; why are you playing this game? You can't fix camping without looking at gen times, because Survivors can, literally, bang out gens twice as fast as a Killer can 12 hook.
But most the folks screeching for 'punishments' want exactly that; a game where Killers can't win. That's what 99% of these threads are, just 'Please make the game easier for me' and 'Please punish Killers for not following The Survivor Rulebook 5th Edition'
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I think it is bad design because there's too many hooks. Why do we even have a wiggle mechanic where no matter where you die theres a hook there. They need to be reduced by half so everyone can play more strategic and you get some actual usage out of wiggling. It adds more suspense like am I gonna make it?
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It's not just a Leatherface problem. Huntress, Trickster, Billy, Plague, Demogorgon, Trapper, Hag, Wraith, Oni, Myers, Twins, Pyramid Head, Nemesis, Doctor, Legion, Ghostface, and any other killer with a few stacks of STBFL.
It is... Wow, there are a lot of killers who can effectively facecamp. I actually didn't think that list would be as long as it is. DbD really does have some serious issues surrounding hook mechanics.
At least Freddy got taken off the list with the BT buff.
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Wriggling exists so the Killer cannot carry you to the basement across the map, or hold you on his shoulder infinitely. It is not meant to actually help Survivors without outside intervention.
If it actually saw effectiveness on it's own; Killers would never be able to hook anyone.
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I'm not saying you're gonna wiggle out every time but it adds suspense to it because the entire wiggle phase they can still get you to a hook. I've had it happens so many times where the bar was full but I still got hooked.
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Are you seriously comparing camping; a TACTIC IN THE GAME that SURVIVORS CAN PUNISH, to breaking the rules by hacking?
Can you see reality from where you are?
Comparing a player tactic or strat to cheating. Rofl. No wonder Survivors demand the game be changed, if they see anything they don't like as 'cheating'. 😂
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All of the killers I listed can in the very least completely and utterly prevent an unhook from happening no matter what. Most can bulldoze right through any perks.
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No ######### 'understanding the code and abusing it' when referring to HACKING is not a ######### tactic; It's cheating.
Using an ACCEPTED TACTIC is not cheating just because Survivors are getting their knickers in a knot over losing.
And the Killer's TACTIC is to remove Survivors 'from the action'. It's how he slows down gen progress, since gens fly too fast and kicking without perks could be removed, due to 1-frame gen tapping.
It's ALSO how he ######### WINS. Why is this so hard for Survivors to understand? The. Killer. Kills. You.
He removes you from the game. And he does not have to ask you if you had enough fun before he does so. He's not a theme park employee. It's not his job to PM you and say 'Did the upper-class Survivor have enough fun? May I hook you now? Am I allowed to kill you?'
But Survivors treat the Killer like he exists for their enjoyment, and every time one wins, he CLEARLY went off script and needs to be fired!
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You don't. That's the point of the hooks. You take away the survivor's agency and ability to do anything and forces someone else to come get them. That's literally the design behind Killers like Deathslinger and Trickster. They're so oppressive in chase that you can't do much to dodge them if they are good enough.
Yet those two are still considered low tier killers because they don't have any map pressure.
It's a 1v4 game, if every survivor can still contribute to the game when they're downed and hooked then the game balance is going to swing much more in their favour.
The Killer is expected to take from Survivors and Survivors are expected to do the same. All DBD is in reality is a game of attrition between two sides. The Killer needs to drain the survivor's hook states and the Survivors needs to drain the killer's generators. The side who can do it faster while making sure the other side cannot do their objective is the one who will be the winner in the end.
I've been facecamped, tunneled, and slugged by every kind of Killer on the face of this earth. But at this point I've come to expect it from over 3k hours playing this game. If a Killer is facecamping me, it tells me that either they need me to secure a kill during endgame or they don't want me to get away again after I chased them for over 4 gens.
If you don't expect being camped, tunneled, or slugged at the highest ranks in DBD then I suggest taking a chill pill from this game.
There's a reason why slugging is a lot more effective than facecamping or tunneling. Facecamping and tunneling just takes out one person from the game. Slugging forces everyone to stop working on generators to attempt a rescue or have every single person downed as a result which allows the Killer to start picking off targets.
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The condescending attitude you're giving off tells me you're trolling or baiting or genuinely have no idea how to play the game. I'm going to go with "have no clue"
Tell me. Does it feel good to see three generators pop in the distance when you've only secured just one down? And one hook?
The reason Killers can stop survivors and give themselves time is because the time it takes for a Killer to get 12 hooks and the time it takes for Survivors to finish 5 generators are not equal. The Killer needs to buy themselves more time.
Why do you think Pop and Ruin become so popular? Or NOED for that matter? Because gen speeds can go by really really fast, especially in higher ranks where people are playing more seriously.
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Some of those I agree are more capable of protecting the hook, like Iri head Huntress, Hillbilly, Trapper, Myers and Ghostface.
But a lot of these would have their camping countered quite effectively by BT. They can get a hit in on the unhooked survivor, sure, but that survivor is going to get a speed boost and reset the chase from the endurance hit.
Bubba is the big problem because his chainsaw covers more ground than that, and it can down both unhooker and unhooked at the same time.
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It's not that they're 'not fun' or 'not fair'.
It's just that they're what the devs need to balance the entire game around. If they WANT gen speeds to enable 5-6 minute escapes, then they need to develop Killer movement speed & powers around short, fast chases so the Killer has a chance of hooking someone without 3/5 gens popping.
Because, if 1 hook = 3 gens. Then Killing one person via 3 hooks = 9 out of 5 generators.
Or, to put it in time: If 1 chase (find, chase, hit, chase some more, down) + hook = 120 seconds (2 minutes), then 3 hooks = 360 seconds (6 minutes).
That's 6 minutes to kill ONE person...Except 'tunneling is bad'. So that's 3 non-kill hooks in 6 minutes. And with current gen speeds, that's now 4 to 5 gens popped & the exit gates powered. And no one dead.
Hence WHY Killers camp & tunnel.
And also why the entire game needs to be balanced around gen speeds, first and foremost. Devs need to ask 'how fast can gens pop' and balance everything a Killer can do around that time limit. Because that is the time limit of a match.
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I honestly feel like all normal hooks should be like the cages where they prevent camping to some extent, however the basement hooks if you get brought there I think it's a you asked for it situation, the basement should be a threat. But honestly I can't really comment on game balance and failures rn while everything is a laggy desynced mess getting vacuumed to hooks etc and wiggling barely having an effect on killers.
I'll comment more when they finally fix the latency issue.
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The wouldn't, actually, because they can all deny an unhook in the first place.
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First off, wow those are insanely long chases that make absolutely no sense to multiply like that because those times are only consistent with predropped pallets. Second, there is such a thing as "snowballing".
Third, 6-minute trials? Plenty of time to win. It may not be fun, but it's definitely balanced.
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