Can this game actually be played fair?
According to Big Name Streamers no, and they encourage people to not try to begin with
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I believe so. I'm going to be hopeful and say that with a few balancing changes that will make most people happy along with new, well thought out mechanics can make the game balanced. but i guess the best question to ask is what makes dbd so unfair to begin with?
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Fair is subjective. So no. Some people think slugging is unfair, I don't. Some think tunneling in unfair. I don't. Now they may be unfun. But not unfair
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I think so, going by my own rules of fair. I can manage it most of the time + not get absolutely 100% crushed
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'Playing fair' is not using cheats or exploits to win.
It's staying within the rules of the game and using the tools the game has intended to give you (remember: no exploits) to win.
Anything else is a made-up honor system that you CAN follow, but no one has any right to bash you for NOT following.
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Like other people here have said there’s no set in stone definition of “fair” and if I had to guess the reason streamers discourage attempting to “play fair” is because when people lose if they want to find something to blame for losing that isn’t them they’re gonna find something no matter how you played.
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If you mean "can you go for 12 hooks and potentially win/get an average of 10 hooks", not even remotely. If you mean "don't hardcore camp, tunnel and mass-slug right from the start," then yes. In fact, those are usually very bad plays that require specific circumstances to actually work in. Seriously, they don't help.
As for survivor... We're apparently all squeaky clean and can do no wrong. I never get called out for predropping pallets, holding W, using strong perks, etc. I get that killers can shut down any real gameplay, but come on - so long as I don't BM, I can be as much of a ######### as I want. That doesn't seem fair, especially given how much I use Lucky Break, Iron Will, OoO, strong medkits, DS, BT, the new Flashbang perk, Head On, etc.
Don't use flashlights much. Maybe that's why I'm so cute and forgivable?
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Fairness is subjective.
Just like the win conditions of those 'Big Name Streamers'. Which, in all fairness (pun intended) are often ludicrously demanding.
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There's no true element of "fairness" in this game because nobody owes anyone anything.
You're also gonna have people on both sides like Sluzzy or Lord_Tony who think everything that isn't in their favor is unfair lol.
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If it makes you feel better since I’m a wraith main I despise that goddamn flashbang
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Tunneling/genrushing should be the nuclear option, not the default option. But it is indeed possible to play fair.
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No. At the higher end, you cannot get twelve hooks on rotation against a decent team. There simply isn't enough time.
But then, everybody has a different meaning for fair. If we go by the traditional 'no tunnel/camp,' well, then no.
What's considered 'fair' for survivors, though?
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Sounds nice. I don’t use flashlights and I’ve had killers ######### at me for running lots of things, Dead Hard, BT, Balanced, Spine Chill, Head On, new DS, medkits, maps, a Dead Dawg offering, and tons of other stuff. Plus the ever-present “omg sweaty swf” even when I’m running multiple aura perks and have an open friends list.
I once had a Spirit tell me to kill myself for running DH when I didn’t even use it a single time in the match. Lol.
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game can be fair only at one point and I think that is maps playing on midwich is not a fair thing for a killer playing on thompson house as a survivor and being in the that dead zone of corn field is not fair.It could be changed but there is more important stuff like making cosmetis,visuals of the maps etc.
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Really? I've seen killers call out boring survivor gameplay, and I'm certainly one of those who does it too. When the game just resolves to finding survivors while they're playing super immersed, catching up to their W + hitting instead of having actual fun chases with mind gaming at jungle gyms, I usually will call the survivors out for being some of the most boring players around, regardless of the result
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Define fair
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Depends on your definition of "fair".
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Depends entirely on the context of the situation. If you're playing on a relatively fair map against somewhat mediocre Survivors then the answer is yes. You could probably afford to play 'fair'. Against good Survivors? No.
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What do you mean by fair? Are you talking about needing to tunnel, proxy camp and slug? If so, it depends. You usually don't need to do those things vs average players, but you do need to vs survivor teams that have multiple people that know how to play to win. You can't give free saves and all that vs competent survivor players if you want to win as killer.
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I'm mainly wondering because
- there's a massive influx of gamestart slugging with ruin and corrupt
- how many people here say camping, tunneling etc are 'necessary' against good survivors
especially with point 2 I reckon that proper balancing is impossible, ruining the experience for both sides at bottom line.
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If the question is, "Can you win without playing so aggressively that you ruin the match for everyone else?" the answer is yes, when you have a skill advantage on the other team, maybe, when you're evenly matched, and no, when the other team has a skill advantage over you.
In a perfect future where matchmaking works and people get even matches, I think you'll still see people play super aggressively, because they want the extra edge from that. I'm happy with a 50/50 shot to win a relaxed game, but not everyone is.
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As long as you don't use flashlights you are definitely cute and forgivable. You can do whatever you want to me except flash that thing in my eyes, good way to get me to tunnel and face camp you if that is your preference, lol.
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I've had plenty of so called fair games that ended in a 4k. I've been told on a 4k I played perfectly although I saw many mistakes.
It's easier to be a slime ball that'll camp 1stHook5Gens because someone will reward it. You camp first hook without losing a gen you will not be hooking me. 2 people 4 gens I'm still tryin but why waste my time as bait while they camp or look around? Give the other person a chance to find the hatch first since the killer doesn't care about giving people a chance to have fun why help them.
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I really don't think "fair" is subjective. It's just giving everybody equal opportunity.
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The term is inmensely broad, but this definition:
- Consistent with rules, logic or ethics.
The answer would probably yes as the authority of the environment are the devs. Any player that follows intended design is then playing fair.
Problem comes on other definitions like:
- Free from favoritism, self-interest, or preference in judgment.
Which then i think it would be only possible if all players reached an agreement that settled up a subset of rules, logic, ethics...
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This, entirely depends on what you want out the match.
I have a few "codes of honor" or whatever when I play killer, just to try and make the games more fun. But that's as far as I go really, I'm not going to forgive obvious screwups on the survivors end if I'm trying to win.
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Barring massive skill differences, which are a matchmaking issue, everyone does have equal opportunities.
For example: the killer found and/or downed and/or hooked and/or tunneled and/or mori'd you first? Well, could've been anyone else. All other things being equal, there's a 1/4 chance that it was going to be you.
Thing is, nobody wants to be found and/or downed and/or hooked and/or tunneled and/or mori'd first, even though if those things are going to happen (and some of them will happen), someone has to be first. So they say it's "unfair" that it happened.
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Yeah but take something like a survivor against a Nurse. The survivor does not have an equal opportunity to escape the chase as the Nurse has to downing you. If the Nurse is good enough she can basically guarantee to beat you which is not an equal opportunity for victory. I don't necessarily think tunneling is "unfair" it's just frustrating. Camping can be unfair if they hook you in an area with absolutely no resources and they can just guarantee you to never go anywhere. The real things I find "unfair" that are worth complaining about tho are matchups where the odds are way stacked in one sides favor just because of luck or because they chose a certain character.
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Disregarding the fact that most survivors just don't know how to play against a Nurse, killers should not be equal to survivors. That's one of the core characteristics of asymmetrical games, that there's one side with more (but less powerful) players, and another with fewer (but more powerful) players. Overall, every member of the numbers role combined should be equal to every member of the power role combined. In DbD's case, that means 4 survivors = 1 killer; not 1 survivor = 1 killer.
If other killers have a 50/50 chance to win a chase, that's a balance issue.
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So you think the game should be balanced in a way that guarantees survivors to die relatively quickly in chase? Even with killers who are designed to ignore every defense a survivor has like pallets and windows? If every killer was like Nurse the game would really suck.
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I think the game should be balanced in a way that doesn't make each individual survivor as powerful as each individual killer, seeing as how there are four survivors to one killer. Again, the game is 4v1, not 1v1.
I don't understand why people pick the survivor role if they expect to 1v1 the killer and win. The game is based on 80s slasher flicks. How do those usually end, exactly? How many of the survivors escape?
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Well I agree that should be the case but I think if that is truly how the game should be played then there needs to be an actual win condition. Currently the only "win condition" that exists is escaping or dying. Of course you can go by the pip system for a win or loss but that 's really stupid and everyone knows that.
Right now a player could be tunneled the entire game and then die at the end only for the 3 other survivors to escape. The game would basically tell the survivor who died that they died and nothing else. Even though that survivor was so good that they made everyone else escape the game doesn't recognize that. It only recognizes individual kills.
For example in that situation if 3 survivors escaped even the survivor who died should get a "win" from the game because 3 escaped. Right now the win condition is based around a 1v1 of you dying or escaping, not a 4v1 of the ratio of kills to escapes like it should be.
Imo it really blurs the lines between the 1v1 and 4v1 if there is no actual winning or losing on a team scale.
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But they don't decide what's fair.
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Sorry for the late reply but I disagree. Fair is completely subjective. Both sides have equal opportunity from the start, in fact at the start the killer starts at a deficit because they have no pressure and the survivors have all resources available. It's the survivors and killers decisions that determine the outcome. If survivors make a bad play like farming their teammate without DS why should the killer simply ignore the mistake and not punish it?. I'll rehook them. They unhooked too close to me and it's their fault I think that's fair. If gens get done really fast cause I wasn't pressuring gens Enough that's completely fair imo. Camping is fair because tho he's getting a survivor out of the game if all. Three split up on gens. You can easily get a 2-3 out which is a win or tie. That's fair. If he gets more. Than that it's the teams fault for being super altruistic. My main point is that fair is a subjective term that can fit any narrative Because what you may deem as unfair may seem completely fair play to someone else
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If your definition of “playing fair” is 12 hooks, no slugging, no camping, and no tunneling then absolutely not against good survivors. You have to know when to do these things, especially slugging. You just can’t generate enough pressure by downing one survivor, then immediately picking up and hooking.
But my definition of “playing fair” is just playing the game without cheating and using exploits. So you wanna camp, slug, tunnel, or anything people hate facing, then it’s all fair play.
Sometimes survivors also have to play in a relatively unfun or sweaty way to win against some killers as well but it’s still fair play.
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It's not fair if it's a rank 1 going against a team of rank 15s. It's also not fair if it's a Nurse vs. an okay team of players. Nurse is designed to literally counter pallets and windows. How is a killer who counters all of the survivor's defenses fair? Those are objective balancing issues.
On the other side even a good Trapper vs a SWF sweat squad is inherently unfair. The Trapper couldn't do anything.
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It's not fair if it's a rank 1 going against a team of rank 15s.
That's a matchmaking issue, not a balance issue. Balance is when players of equal skill play against each other.
It's also not fair if it's a Nurse vs. an okay team of players. Nurse is designed to literally counter pallets and windows. How is a killer who counters all of the survivor's defenses fair?
Nurse has her own counters that survivors can learn, and those are not the only defenses survivors have, they're just the easiest to use (and the most popular).
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Yes bad matchmaking is unfair we all agree with that. But nurse isn't unfair. She's strong yes, but not unfair. You have to play very different against a nurse as playing against her is all mindgames. If you get caught out in the open your [BAD WORD], you need to block LOS and creat distance by being unpredictable and pathing uniquely. Eventually she will get a right read and down you but she gets heavily punished for messing up. You can easily lose a gen or 2 by having a couple missed blinks. Nurse is as strong as the person playing her. A bad nurse will lose almost all their games. A good nurse will win about half of their games and a skilled nurse will almost always win against pub match survivors. I don't think that makes her unfair.
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Nurse can catch up to a survivor extremely quickly, guarantee a down, and doesn't care about pallets/windows. What other defenses are there? Stealth? It's definitely stretching to say a full team can out stealth a really good Nurse.
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Nurse can catch up to a survivor extremely quickly
Her blinks are not instantaneous and she has a limited blink range.
guarantee a down
100% false. As a matter of fact, she's the only killer who can't guarantee a down, because she's inherently slower than survivors. If the survivor knows how her power works and what her weaknesses are, she's screwed.
and doesn't care about pallets/windows
Also not true. The problem is that you're thinking that her power is always available in every situation and don't really understand how it works. I regularly stun Nurses on purpose because I do know how her power works.
What other defenses are there? Stealth? It's definitely stretching to say a full team can out stealth a really good Nurse.
Eyes, brains, hand-eye coordination, knowledge. Mostly knowledge. Understand how she works (not just remembering numbers and data, but actually playing her and understanding how she works) and you can beat her.
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Her power has a short cool down... Once the cool down expires with 2 blinks you move like double the distance that a survivor does. Do you not think Nurse is the best killer? Like literally everybody thinks her and Spirit are the only ones who can actually take down tournament teams.
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as long as premades exist no, you cant play fair
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Her power has a short cool down... Once the cool down expires with 2 blinks you move like double the distance that a survivor does.
Like I said, you need to understand her power if you expect to counter her, not just memorize mechanical facts.
Do you not think Nurse is the best killer?
I think she's the only killer whose skill ceiling is determined by the player. However, that doesn't make her unbalanced. "Best" doesn't mean "unbalanced", it just means "best". And she's only the "best" because survivors don't know how to play against her and refuse to learn, since it's easier to stick to pallets and windows while claiming they're the only things you can use and literally nothing else exists in the game.
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Like I said what else exists? If you can't use pallets or windows eventually she will catch up no matter what. Obviously if the Nurse is bad she'll miss a lot but a good enough Nurse won't miss. If you run in a straight line or break line of sight or whatever she will catch up.
Without pallets and windows you'd just be holding W and that works until the killer catches up.
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Yes of course. Because whatever strategy you use is fair.
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Like I said what else exists?
Eyes, brains, hand-eye coordination, and memory. Like I said.
If you can't use pallets or windows eventually she will catch up no matter what.
That's the thing: you can use them, but you have to use them differently than when you're going up against other killers.
Obviously if the Nurse is bad she'll miss a lot but a good enough Nurse won't miss.
Every Nurse can miss because every player can miss because nobody is perfect. However, just for the sake of argument, if she doesn't miss, if she plays perfectly, but you don't, then why should she lose?
If you run in a straight line or break line of sight or whatever she will catch up.
Every killer will catch up, eventually. That's a non-issue. Running in a straight line against a killer whose power lets them move in a straight line very quickly is just a bad idea. You wouldn't do that against a Hillbilly, would you?
Without pallets and windows you'd just be holding W and that works until the killer catches up.
Which is true of any killer. However, like I said, you can use pallets and windows against her, just differently.
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I don't think so. ######### tactics for a win are always gonna be there. There will never be fairness in this game unless they add more ######### for us all to do or adjust times and how often fast we can be hooked etc. Right now this game feels like a mining cart going haywire down an old abandoned mineshaft with no brakes. I'm just waiting to hit the dead end wall when it gets there.
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SWF with comms
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