Otzdarva noed experiment
Comments
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Useless change.
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I'm fine with NOED. It makes me realize I'm much better than a lot of people who compulsively play this game out of addiction yet still can't surmount the impossible task of hitting survivors twice in a chase and not 4K before the endgame the majority of their matches. Hell, I can do that without slowdown nowadays.
The worst part is I'm not even that good, so I just find it amusing to imagine that people make some mental gymnastics to justify their cheese because they're simply not good enough to win before 5 gens pop.
I do not count count gimmicky endgame builds here, or full-expose meme builds. Those are clearly for fun and are always fresher than the actual use of NOED.
So yeah, keep NOED, as it makes me smile each time I tell myself or my friend 'this guy definitely has NOED' and they don't fail to provide.
It sucks as a perk though, probably another reason why so many boosted killers litter red ranks which make way for boosted survivors.
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The OP is using NOED cause he has to be carried at the endgame.
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NOED is just bad for game health. its primary problem is that it skews killer kill statistics. you can make weak killer powers and just use NOED to justify the killer in good spot. The perk is literally stronger than 70% of killer powers in the game.
Worst of all, Its really bad for solo-queue as it gives no telltale signs that it is in play and it takes a while to check all location spots to disable it in the end game, but by that time, there is chance that your team falls apart from NOED speed boost+Instant downs. Not many survivors do dull totems as they tend to be waste of time.
I kinda wish NOED was reworked to be an early game perk, kinda like an early game collapse since killers are lot weaker at the start of the game from all pallet spawns. I think it would be a much healthier perk if the perk gave 60 seconds of instant down+speed boost at the start of a match. It would make survivors a lot more scared to start working on generators at the start of the game as the early chase would be a lot harder. The fear factor of the perk might make generators pop slower in early game.
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The only incentive to cleanse dull totems is if you want BP, have a totem related perk (e.g. Inner Strength), to reduce the effect of TOTH (which no one uses) or to prevent NOED.
So no, survivors should not be punished. I'm not cleansing 5 totems (with all the issues that entails, especially in soloQ) just in case the killer uses NOED - unless I'm having a really chill game where the killer isn't applying any pressure.
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It's already flawed logic to imply something has to be earned in the game. That makes no sense in the context of countless perks. It makes sense for Adrenaline, it doesn't make sense for Dead Hard. You don't earn Whispers, you don't earn Corrupt Intervention. Beyond that you're treading into the territory of individually balancing every perk and its strength based on if it is earned vs not, and they don't do that.
If a killer has a survivor hooked and has NOED, unless that killer has the survivor hooked right next to the totem, then it isn't hard to find that totem, BT the survivor out and it's no problem. It's really not an issue. Maybe it's an issue like countless things in this game are, for bad survivors, and in that respect that might be true. They don't understand totem spawns, they don't understand the strength of, or have, BT, but why should a perk be bad because some survivors don't have the capacity or interest to learn, or improve? Is that who we want to cater this game to?
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My issues with NOED revolve mostly around its counterplay.
It's unintuitive. Yes, you can 'dO bONeS' as the old meme goes, but that's a gamble for Swiffers and a massive gamble for solos.
Firstly: fail to find even one totem, and NOED gets its full effect. This turns all totem-hunting efforts into a complete waste, adding slowdown on top of NOED's power. But since solos have no idea what their teammates are doing, they have no idea whether that totem they found is the fifth and thus worth cleansing, or the second and thus possibly not worth doing.
Yes, Small Game got the totem counter. But this just adds to the survivor 'perk tax', which cripples build diversity.
EDIT: firstly, part two: NOED gets pushed to whatever totem is left, which also means that cleansing every totem you can find pushes it to whatever totem you -can't- find, making it much harder to counteract.
Secondly: due to NOED requiring a team effort, it widens the gap between solo and Swiffer. No comms makes NOED stronger.
Thirdly: NOED's passive threat causes counterplay to make the perk take effect without being equipped. This adds to the gambling-nature of the counterplay: do bones when the killer doesn't have NOED and NOED becomes a stronger slowdown perk.
Fourthly: Due to the large investment required to counterplay it, NOED is an excellent supporting perk to hook camping. The only counter to facecamping is genrushing, and 'doInG BoNEs' is mutually exclusive with that.
Paradoxically, certain buffs to NOED might actually make it -less- of a problem. But one of the most simplistic fixes that should be implemented yesterday is a universal totem counter, to improve solo player's chances against it and narrow the Swiffer-Solo gap.
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There are multiple other perks in the game that require either a time sink or a change in playstyle in order to counter them.
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It doesn't really matter what he thinks, if you want to use it, use it. It is one of the best perks in the game. If I was playing to win, there is no way I wouldn't use it.
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yeah, that's why its used in comp all the time and regarded as one of the best killer perks that can secure multiple kills where no other perk would.
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Agreed with this mostly. While i have nothing against NOED by itself, when you combine NOED with a Facecamping killer, it is just the most miserable experience you can ever have in this game.
When Otz was playing Bubba and was facecamping a poor David, he just left at some point because he said he couldn't bare it. And i get it. If you are a player that is even remotely concerned with how the experience is for the other players in the trial, you cannot seriously stomach facecamping
Which brings me to why survivors are overly-altruistic. I think that most survivors, including myself, just want the survivor that is on hook to not have to spend the entire game not doing anything. I don't care about escaping, i don't care if my last hook trade gets me killed in the end. I will gladly take the chase from a tunneled survivor, or hook trade.
Now is Facecamping a viable strategy, sure, stomps soloQ. Facecamping with NOED, stomps them even worse. At the end of the day, when you have to depend on the good-will of others to have an enjoyable experience, you will be sadly disappointed. Best you can do at the moment is take the L and hope for the best in the next game.
Best thing the devs can probably do at this point is severely hindering you from getting a Pip if you facecamp a survivor the entire match, and not depip the survivor that was facecamped. This way, the survivor that is on hook will not be incentivized to just DC, and the killer would be more compelled to pursue others. At least in theory...
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Huh? If they are face camping with NOED, the game is over, they are waiting on you to leave or trade, or try and find my totem.
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Then don't blame the killer for using noed. You made your choice.
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In short: Noed is fine.
Just do totems...Not that hard.
Survivors don't gotta work for ds: Activates soon as they get off hook.
Survivors don't gotta work for exhaustion: Just use it mid-chase and wait like 40 seconds.
Survivors don't gotta work for.. much really,
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I do get what he's trying to put across: that a killer can play as lazily as possible and still get rewarded. You can say that about a lot of perks, but the sheer magnitude of an effect NOED can produce is great in comparison to the effort that can be put in.
He didn't shame killers for using it, even though he admitted he didn't like it, and even went so far as to tell someone who said they never facecamp and play fair, yet use it, that there's nothing wrong with that. I never got the impression he was illustrating anything else other than how it could benefit lazy plays - and he said not every killer does that.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that it's a perk that isn't earnt as such, because you're playing a perk down for an endgame that might never happen anyway! But I'm not sure if that's what he meant anyway. Besides, so many perks from "Spine Chill" to "Tinkerer" to "Adrenaline" to "Empathy" to "Bitter Murmur" never have to be earnt, amd that's perfectly fine! That's what perks are for - to enhance an ability somehow.
In the end, I just took the NOED experiment to show how some killers can get 4k without doing anything other than face-camp and show little skill the entire game, and how it could be exploited. Most don't, and therefore NOED feels fine - it's just a small floor in its design.
If anything, his video shows more about how terrible the ranking system is! When 4 high red ranks play as horrendously bad as those 4 survivors did on the game at Haddonfield versus a Trapper (and they did play pathetically - Otz was even seemingly playing a lazy, crap game himself to illustrate the NOED thought), you know there's a big issue with ranking, even if you're really new to the game!
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The only thing Otz's experiment proved is that survivors would rather demand the ge be changed for them instead of just doing their secondary objective.
They have Detective's Hunch, Small Game, Counterforce, and maps to help them find and break totems. Otz was camping the whole game. So the survivors had all the time in the world to do anything they wanted while the killer was literally standing still by a hook, and they still chose to only do gens and try for saves.
NOED doesn't need to change. Survivors do.
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Uh... facecamping mandates genrushing. You can't do totems when the killer is facecamping, you don't have enough time.
Also, survivors can't keep equipping perks to patch up holes in gameplay design, they only have four slots. Perks that are subsequently bemoaned by killers for being a stale meta.
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It's an easy choice though.
The choice of cleansing all dull totems means:
- The team spend a collective 70 seconds cleansing dull totems (not including finding them) which are spread across the map.
- Unless you're using a map, totem perk, have personally cleansed all totems or in a SWF or want to waste time running around the map specifically checking if all totems are cleansed - you don't know if they've all been cleansed.
- Gens aren't progressing quickly, whilst the killer's objective is still progressing. Doesn't matter if you cleanse 5 totems, you still generally need to repair 5 gens to escape. If you're up against an amazing Blight, Nurse or Spirit with meta perks and addons, good luck. They will be snowballing like crazy, you need all the time on gens as you can get.
- You're counting on the killer using NOED. If the killer isn't, it's a complete waste of time and you're against the clock in this game. Even if you make it out, perhaps another survivor is sacrificed where if you had just rushed gens, they could've escaped.
So trying to counter NOED ends up being more of an issue and inconvenience than NOED itself. Which is why it's pointless trying to cleanse 5 dull totems in most scenarios, as described in the second bullet point above.
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Breaking totems isn't a flaw in game design though. It's the secondary objective. You can't make the case for NOED being OP when you have all the tools you need to make sure it never activates but you refuse to use them.
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But here's the thing for me which alot of people don't seem agree with. Noed punishes the survivor for being lazy. How many times has anyone walked past a totem and doesn't do it? All the time. I try to do the totems that I see just in case. The game is a 4v1 so 1 survivor shouldnt be in charge of destroying all the totems your team should help with that. Counter force is an amazing perk countering totems but alot of people don't bring because they believe its a waste of a slot which can be but thats their decision and thats the risk they take. The killer is running without a perk all game until noed appears and even then it can still be destroyed thats why I don't see why killers perks should all have to be "earned" when survivor perks never have to be earned.
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I wish that as soon as the last gen got completed and NOED activates it would just apply the curse automatically so everyone is aware it's in play.
If they aren't going to rework it somehow then making this change would at least give survivors a heads up to start looking for it.
It's honestly such a weird perk anyways, it further crushes poor solo queue survivors and really doesn't do much to SWFs as the slightest bit of coordination can easily dispel a NOED situation.
Expecting someone to be the designated totem hunter in solo queue can have too many things go wrong:
1. YOU get caught first and camped and can't cleanse totems
2. Your teammates go down fast and nobody else tries to save them while you're trying to cleanse all the totems around the map
3. You know where the NOED totem is but you get downed and camped and your teammates don't find it
Idk, I usually forgo running a dedicated totem build in solo queue because it's risky if you get caught first and camped. I don't want NOED to be nerfed into uselessness, quite the contrary I'd love if it was a better designed perk because then I'd actually want to use it more.
Oh and to those who say "It is well designed, it punishes survivors for not doing the side objective of cleansing ALL FIVE TOTEMS" let me just say that that's a little unrealistic. That is so much time wasted looking for and breaking all of the bones just for a chance to prevent NOED from happening which the killer might not even be running which is pretty nasty. That's why if it at least was up front with the curse effect as soon as the last gen popped I'd have much less problem with it because you'd at least have a little warning and be able to play more safe. They need to add a different side objective because relying on people to cleanse all dull totems in fear of NOED doesn't even make sense since NOED rewards you late game and doesn't help slow down the match like a proper secondary objective should. As killers we're supposed to do everything in our power to prevent the last gen from being completed, isn't that how Gatekeeper works?
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Ok, 10% then… pretty significant. Unless you’re one of those that depend on free instadowns to secure kills at the end of the game?
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Or just do totems.
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Survivors have tools to prevent NOED from activating. It’s their fault it goes off cause they don’t wanna use those tools or even totems.
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Otz is a good killer that couldn't keep up with one key part of the experiment, camping. He kept pressuring other survivors and not playing in a way that screamed, this killer has noed.
Also, what a bunch of potatos he was going up against.
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If a killer happens to be facecamping, then there's rarely enough time to locate and destroy all 5 totems while completing all gens too. 1st hooked survivor will likely die, and then the killer will search for a 2nd surv and do it again. And that's probably gonna be before their NoED even activates.
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Okay well as long as killers are playing by the rules of the game, than it shouldn’t be a problem but survivor mains just wanna make a huge deal out of one perk that doesn’t really give you hardly any value at endgame.
It just annoys me that everyday I come across these NOED threads it’s the same complaints over and over again of how it rewards bad killers and all this other nonsense. I mean get over it this is only a game there’s other things I think we should worry more about than NOED.
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it does not punish you for doing objective. technically you can still escape when NOED is active. It is a rewards given to the killer when losing his main objective. All killer perks that are featured in end game like No way out, Remember me, Blood warden, Fire up, Rancor, so on are perks that reward killer for losing his main objective.
A perk that would punish generator rushing would be a perk that powers a single generator after 5 generators are completed making it that you need to do 6 generators instead of 5. That perk would easily be killer version of second chance perk. I imagine adrenaline would be very popular perk if a killer perk like this existed.
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I started to use noed recently because i am just tired of how braindead the game is for survivors. especially the reworked farm maps. There is a reason they use these for 1v1 challenges.
I play like normal and go for hooks over kills because i am BP farming so they have no clue that NOED will be in play during the end game. I have had quite a few games where NOED didn't even activate because survivors did totems between gens or it was a SWF who popped it the moment it showed up (kinda suspect since they didn't bother with totems all game and seemingly knew its exact location)
"Just do totems" is not killers being snarky, It is the counter to the perk. The problem is survivors have it in their brains to just ignore dull totems and don't share the load leaving it to one person to do all 5. Imagine if they had the same mentality for generators!
Your idea is useless because survivors get a free sprint burst and killer slow after being hit and will just run out the exit with or without bodyblocks from their swf buddies.
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All killer perks that are featured in end game like No way out, Remember me, Blood warden, Fire up, Rancor, so on are perks that reward killer for losing his main objective.
It's 4 vs 1. The killer needs perks that help the end game because against competent survivors. The killer will lose his objective. Yes you can complete a match with NOED activated but it's risky. If the killer has someone on the hook and has NOED. I don't even go for a save until I find that totem.
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I'm playing killer, I can't do totems.
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I would never knew how much people die to Noed if I wasnt on this forum.
I play solo surv most of the times and I see Noed less often than Hillbilly.
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Don’t get me wrong, I’ll admit to using NOED for certain tome challenges “just” to ensure I get what I need … there’s just times when you’re simply outmatched as a killer (bad map, tons of pallets, ruin going away early, etc). But as someone who also plays survivor evenly I find it a bit much for a killer to unlock free instadowns simply by still having a totem up. Pardon me, but unless I’m running Detective’s or have a map there’s no way I plan to get 5 totems every game with solo queue teammates… much less on a map like RPD.
I even admit that my increased speed for killers idea isn’t really good, but the current state for NOED isn’t my idea of a well designed perk.
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Breaking totems isn't a hole, but NOED very much is, due to the way it works. If you clear 4/5 totems, you can easily end up worse off than if you did none. And even 5/5 can make NOED stronger.
And no, survivors don't have 'all the tools', since they still don't have a totem counter.
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Nobody is expecting you to get them on your own. Survivors just need to adopt the mentality of see totem = break totem and it would be a non issue. But no... its all about rushing gens for that sweet sweet tbag at the exit because they think they did something amazing.
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I've stopped more NOEDs by not breaking every totem I see than I have by cleansing every single one I find.
Doing totems is more likely to make NOED stronger.
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Yes. Unless you going for all 5 totems and make 100% sure to break all of them, its better to just remember their locations and if Noed is in play then simply go back to check them.
But it also depends on the map. Some maps have obvious totem spawns every time, some indoor maps can have problematic spawns once in a while
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While I do think NOED is annoying as hell, it is still up to the survivors to cleanse the totems if they think the killer will have NOED. You can have some tell signs when a killer will most likely have it.
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I think the reason NOED has not been changed for so long is the fact it can be countered, and the fact its earned, which one of the devs pointed out.
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This fascinates me. Do you know what dev this quote is from?
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Almo. I found the comment.
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The Hate Train begins. good job.
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literally the requirement for it to work is to have a totem left.
It's far from over powered.
You're basically playing 99% of the game with 3 perks and then for that 1% of the game there is a chance NOED will never activate.
it's FINE
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"Yes, Small Game got the totem counter. But this just adds to the survivor 'perk tax', which cripples build diversity."
ah yes don't want to cripple that BT, DH, IW, UB build diversity.
Using small game actually adds to build diversity lol
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I'd take anything otz says with a grain of salt, after all he's the same guy who still defended BHVR during the worst times when it was abundantly clear that they couldn't care less about the most pressing issues.
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Like it would've mattered which dev it was, people are just going to hate regardless because they disagree with the statement. Besides, anyone with access to Google would've been able to find that comment, just like I did.
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While Almo does get some flack for his opinions on game balance, I do understand his reasoning. Playing with 3 perks and choosing to plan for the endgame is a strategy, and some defensive killers like Trapper never play for early wins most of the time.
NOED though probably does give too much reward though, since camping a survivor too death doesn't really feel like working for it. Most new endgame perks require you to be active in the trial, which seems to be how the devs are hoping to design such perks going forward.
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BT, IW and DS are part of that perk tax, you pistachio.
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Nothing more fun and balanced than getting hit by noed and dying on first hook after looping a red rank wraith for 4 gens on midwich. Anyone who thinks noed is balanced thinks keys are balanced too so nothing should get changed about them.
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you only need 1 survivor out of 4 to have small game
so it's not going to ever be apart of the "perk tax"
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