delete please? :)
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So honest question.
Can you tell the difference between "Camping is always a good tactic," and "Camping is sometimes a good tactic?"
Furthermore, can you tell the difference between face camping the hook, and returning to the hook after some time?
You define camping as a killer literally ever returning to the hook. Which is just an incorrect definition
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Sure if camping is always good then it is necessarily good sometimes and if it is good sometimes it may or may not be good all the time.
I think you may be treating the word good as optimal but it doesn't change things it's annoying to be camped.
As for if returning to the hook then leaving again is camping. The killer is not camping when he leaves the hook. If he returns later and then leaves again he is still not camping. If he returns and just stays there then he his camping. Not too complicated
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So you understand the difference between sometimes and always. Therefore you should understand that a blanket statement like "Camping is good for killers" means that camping is ALWAYS good for killers. Which is false. Killers who say "camping is good" never say camping is always good. They say it is sometimes good, which is not the same as "camping is always good."
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OK well let's clarify then it's a good strategy but there are examples when it's not optimal for example if you had 3 survivors wounded sitting 10 feet from you in a room with one door and no other 3xits staring at the wall, then the optimal play would be leave hook to down them. But it's still a good play to camp and wait for the guy to die then go after the three.
But im not really sure what point your trying to make or why that distinction between best possible move and just good move mattets becuase at the end of the day it's always boring for the camped survivor and making camping a bad strategy by changing the mechanics will fix that.
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Only if you play swf.
Solo Qs usually dont have enough coordination to ignore the hook camper and do gens and to make an exchange during the last 20 seconds of each health state.
Therefore camping and tunneling is VERY effective against solo Q players.
FUN FACT: If people stay on gens and leave they are usually accused being gen rushers <3
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I've seen your other replies. You literally cannot comprehend camping and accept that sometimes it is needed.
So why would I wanna have a conversation with someone who's gonna throw their perspective on me but not understand mine at all?
You're clearly a hardcore survivor main which figures, cause you have major entitlement issues.
I'll not be responding to you again.
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Who cares if you're "accused of being a genrusher."
Thats your entire objective. And I don't know what survivor teams you're on. But when I see camping killers. I sit on gens, and since I always run kindred, I always see at least another survivor sitting on gens as well.
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It's never needed. It's just a good way for the killer to win. There is no required camping. I think what you mean by needed is an instance where camping will give an easy win becuaee its so good.
But if you feel it's a need for some reason then good news everybody, if you implement my proposal your never going to "need" to camp again. Because camping will never br the beat strategy again. Isn't that great no more having to stand around waiting for the survivor to die you can actually play the game
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You literally just proved my point lol
You can't see past your own opinion, hence why I won't longer reply to you.
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Looking at it at a superficial level, yes, it did what it was supposed to do. If you're looking at it in detail it did more damage than good.
This mechanic make unhooking pretty much always save. There were no downsides to it. Either the killer left so you could unhook safely without any danger or the killer stayed there with getting looped by another survivor while the other 2 survivors could simply do gens without any harm.
It basically made everything safer for survivors and that's worse than having a killer camp 1 survivor out of the game. Why? Because a camping killer will automatically lose the game to any sort of half decent survivor. There's a trade-off to it. The killer gives up 60-70% of the survivors objective for 25% of his own objective.
There was no trade-off at all for the other mechanic.
There already are enough anti-tunnel options in the game. Namely Unbreakable, DS and BT.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against the idea of making camping less attractive to killers (which is really hard because camping already is really unattractive on a half decent MMR) but that was not a good solution.
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Well they could also implement a couple perks to deal with camping if they wanted to, but I figured that would just pass off killers more on here do I didn't mention it. For example a reverse bt where your invulnerable within x meters if hooked survivor or a my favorite would be a perk that allows survivors on the hook to interfere with the killer if he camps, something that stuns/blinds the killer. Possibly a perk that charges up if the killer hangs around enough like Leon's flashback that explodes and let's you off the hook
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Want to explain what that abuse was?
But remeber i said
"When pressed about the abuse they say something along the lines of it forces a killer to leave the hook when they don't want to (you know stops them from camping)"
So make sure you don't word your answer something like the killer will be forced to leave the hook to chase a survivor when he woukd rather stay and cap
Becuase that woukd be proving my point
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I think there are a couple problem with your points.
1 you seem to think camping is literally the only way to win, i have plenty of 4ks with 10 or 11 hooks, and I'm guessing someone who mains killer would do a far better job then me
2. Let look at your example a little closer. If you are chasing this God their survivor and can never catch them and the hooked survivor never dies then the other two can do gens and escape. However if there is no hook pause isn't it basically the same result?
The guy dies you go after the God tier never catching him and the other two do the gens. Unless your gonna say that you would stop chasing the God tier and go after the other two but you could just as easily do that woth the paused timer.
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No your explanation was totally correct, 100% did happen, and was very easily understood. He's just literally so blinded by this nonexistent enemy that he can't see any other possible solution.
I know EXACTLY what he's trying to say, he's just not capable of saying it.
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Camping isn't unfair, it just really sucks to be the person on the receiving end. There are few things worse in this game than waiting for the combined 2-6 minutes (average) for a match only to get tunneled, hooked, and facecamped within the first thirty seconds. You just wasted a total of nearly ten minutes of your life for, what, half the price of a rusty toolbox? Just because another player decided that his or her victory was more important than your ability to play your game? Like I said: That ######### sucks.
I've said before that there should be a way to ease this removal of the player's agency. A small amount of bloodpoints, at least enough to cover the cost of a single bloodweb item. Maybe a slowly increasing amount so that the more you have to sit and not play, the more your removal from the match will be balanced out. I don't know, there are probably a dozen different ways that the misery of being the person who gets camped could be mitigated without directly interfering with the match itself. I know that the argument is "why should you be rewarded for getting caught" and I understand that, there's logic to that point. But this is a game that rewards the player for almost everything that happens in a match, and the goal would be to lessen frustration for the person who's being denied the enjoyment of their game without preventing the opposing side from enjoying theirs. I refuse to believe that there can't be a middle ground, it just seems that the company isn't interested in looking for one.
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Well i thought he explained his points quite well the were just easy to refute. If you believe yourself more articulate then please explain his point for him
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You could also just give the survivors something useful to do on the hook. A perk that let's you stun or blind killers who just hang around camping you. Seems like this wouldn't infringe on player agency or anything but I'm sure this would be somehow considered abuse by killer mains. It's there favorite thing to claim when discussing camping. Next to claiming camping shouldn't be fixed I mean
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That'd be possible but there is one issue I have with this solution. BHVR already tries to fix every gameplay/balance issue this game has with perks. Instead of thinking of new perks how to bandaid fix another gameplay issue, they should rather think about how to fix the issue itself.
If this reverse BT would exist and I understand it correctly, it could be heavily abused. A killer would have to go out of their way to NOT hook a survivor near an unfinished generator because survivors would just repair that gen because they can't be stopped as long as the survivor is hooked. This would be not only toxic to the killer but also kinda toxic to the survivor because his misfortune even gets further abused by his teammates, making him have to wait longer for a save.
We already have perks to stop camping/tunneling though. The one issue I, as a guy who mostly plays killer, can acknowledge (even though it has been buffed recently) is that it just lasts 12 seconds and a killer can just wait it out.
One fix to that would be to making the BT timer stop progressing while the killer is within x meters of the survivor.
On the other hand though it's sometimes necessary for the killer to wait out BT in order to have a chance of winning after he made a mistake or the survivors are just too efficient on gens... so that's to be discussed..
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What they mean by needed are specific situations.
Let me draw you a picture. One survivor is on hook, the gates are powered/open and due to the killer spreading their pressure and hooks, 1-3 other survivor are still alive.
What is the incentive for the killer in this scenario to not secure their kill?
Searching for the other 1-3 in hope that they are not at the other door and/or circle around the killer to get the unhook and make it guaranteed back to the door thanks to potential BT, DS, UB, DH and/or (multiple) bodyblocks?
Now take away all forms of camping and killer can literally go afk as soon as the last gen pops with more than one survivor remaining.
To the second point:
Scenario:
killer chases god tier looper around 1 hooked survivor, 2 others are working gens.
Option 1: Hooked survivor dies after 2 minutes and killer ends up with 25% potential gen progression and can ignore god looper for one of the other 2.
Result: 1 dead, God looper either trying to gain aggro or on gen, gen jockey A remaining on gen and gen jockey B potentially in chase, 25% of potential gen pressure gone.
Option 2: hooked survivors dies, killer drops chase to find one of the two gen jockeys while God looper rescues the hooked.
Result: formerly hooked, god looper and gen jockey A on gens and jockey B in chase, still 4 survivor alive and no progress against gen pressure.
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Your ideas are interesting, I just came to the possibility that I did because I was thinking of something that would accomplish the two specific things that make the facecamp debate a problem: Giving the camped survivor incentive to chill out and not be angry that their time is being wasted, and do it in a way that doesn't change the killer's ability to camp. To me a BP bonus is the sensible solution because it would be the smallest change and presumably satisfy both sides.
If I get hooked and camped within a minute of the beginning of the match I've just wasted five minutes getting into the actual game and have to wait several more to get back out of it, all for like 1500 BP. If that score was bumped to something like 5000 then I got SOMETHING out of it, and the killer still camped his way to a kill like he wanted.
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I mean i don't like being forced to face swf but here we are...
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I don't know why BHVR doesn't at the very least implement something like awarding the camped survivor bloodpoints for hanging in there.
Camping (at 4-5 gens) devastates Solo queue play. The "hurrrrr do genz and leave!" is only feasible for SWF's who can communicate and coordinate. For Solos, there is absolutely no incentive to entertain a facecamper for a hot minute. You don't know the other survivors. They aren't your friends. If they had the opportunity to earn a decent (but not overwhelming) amount of blood points for sticking it out, Solos would have the time to do more generators.
Even still, there is no way for a Solo survivor to even know the first down is being camped until it's too late (thinking if the camper is one of the usual offenders like Wraith, Ghostface, Insidious Bubba etc). Because once again, no communication. SWF? "Guys, I'm being camped, crank out gens". Voila.
So since the SBMM dropped, I've experienced camping/hardcore tunneling Killers in probably 90% of my matches as a Solo. Most of these matches are just a wash because survivors just disconnect, or hook suicide one after the other. It gets to the point where I'm shocked if a Killer plays normally. That's what I mean when I say it devastates Solo queue. My matches end up with 2 disconnects at 4-5 gens and then.. why bother even trying? Why queue up again?
I agree with an earlier comment in this thread though. A LOT of the facecamper issues in this game comes down to a severe attitude problem. It's just certain types of individuals playing Killers making a conscious decision to grief and ruin the game for others. They simply get off on making people miserable. They don't care about pips, they don't care about bloodpoints, or anything else. I say this because even in those matches where 2 survivors Opt-out (disconnect of hook suicide), the Killer STILL camps the second last survivor when the two remaining have absolutely no bloody hope to do much of anything.
It makes me wonder if BHVR just wants to phase Solo queue out at higher ranks.
INB4 the whining: I have lots of opinions on jerk survivors, but that's not what this thread is about.
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I think the your going to run into is when you say the other side doesn't want to change thenkillers ability to camp. It's not quite correct. The killer mains don't want any change to the killers ability ti camp AND have camping be an awesome strategy thatbwill let them win.
That's why they are going to be heavily against anything even my perk proposal if it means killers won't get easy wins. I'd imagine the complaint this go round will be about how hard it is to win without camping so don't implement the perks
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The community for this game is VERY toxic. It just is. I won't blame anyone specifically (I honestly don't have reason to anyway, I see it from both sides), it's just the nature of the game, and the nature of people being brought out by the nature of the game. The desire to win, and the asymmetrical and uneven abilities of each side, make a lot of people angry that something feels wrong or unfair. Then it's just a small step to get into anger, frustration, insults, and crappy behavior, which tends to have a cyclical effect. Crappy survivors upset decent killers (or vice versa), those killers overcompensate out of habit or revenge and ruin the day of someone else, then that person perpetuates the behavior in THEIR next game, and on and on. That's why I'm an unusually nice killer - I often allow full escapes, usually give the hatch, make a practice of saying at least "GG" after every match, and sometimes even go out of my way to say "great game guys, that was a tricky one" or "wow, great Leatherface, thank you for not camping" (in a serious manner, because that Leatherface didn't camp).
As for the face camping, it IS a valid strategy because it really does flip a switch in so many survivors to go out of their way to figure out a save. I've long since learned to ignore the camping unless I absolutely see a way to save, I won't get off gens or totems otherwise. The camping is essentially win-win for the killer. The problem is that it absolutely sucks for the person being camped, which is why I almost never do it myself. On a good day the fastest you can go from pressing the ready button to actually taking your first steps in a match is at least 2-3 minutes, and if you're camped all the way to struggle and then sit through the death animation, end game score, return to the menu, etc., that's at least another 2-3 minutes as well. That's 5-6 minutes bare minimum, which doesn't sound like a lot, but if it doesn't I challenge anyone to stand up and go stare at the wall and do nothing else for that entire time. That's basically what it's like to be face camped. Just a complete and total waste of time. You're being denied the ability to play your game, you get to suffer the frustration of knowing that you're going to likely lose and die, and all for essentially nothing. Any points you earned before the camping have instantly stopped, and if it happens early in the match the whole experience will be almost a complete and total waste of time. You'll get a couple thousand BP, tops. That sucks beyond belief.
So I do understand the killer's desire to camp, even if I generally don't do it myself. Would it win me some games I otherwise lose? Definitely, but I don't want to be that guy. I play this game for fun, and want other players - at least those who aren't begging for punishment by acting extremely obnoxious - to have fun as well. I don't see the need to deprive someone of their ability to play. I don't want to subject others to something that is literally the opposite of playing their game, just to slightly increase the enjoyment of mine. So I wanted to come up with a way for the camped survivors' experience to not be quite as miserable but also not make things any worse for killers either. A little extra BP (again, not like double their total score or anything, just a few thousand at most) will soften the blow a bit. I know I'd tolerate being camped much more if I knew I was actually going to get something other than anger and wasted time out of it. And the killer is completely free to keep playing exactly how they like. Some people may take issue with this, and I understand that, but to my mind this is literally the only solution that will fix things without making the situation worse for either side.
Please BHVR, PLEASE look into this. Camping is rising fast.
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if camping a hook is holding the game hostage then I should be allowed to say using dead hard holds the game hostage because used well it will always reset a chase.
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I think having a hook timer slow come only into affect if there are over 2 gens left would work. That way it doesn't screw over the killer trying to get that last end kill or defending a 3 gen. Could also add where if the slow is initiated the completion of a gen removes the slow. The amount of slow could use some testing so it's not too extensive but it would help solo Qs.
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just like everyone says holding m1 and doing gens as fast as possible isn't toxic, this isn't toxic either. Stop blaming the other side for playing the game. Blame the god awful balance
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I didn't think the issue with camping is that it holds the game hostage. There are 2 issues. 1 camping is boring as hell for the survivor being camped and 2 camping is such a good strategy that is very prevalent in the game.
Fixing either of those issues would be a big improvement
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